We may have interest in Calvin Johnson?

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Postby SeanTaylorJr. » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:25 pm

fleetus wrote:I see Atlanta taking the extra 2nd round picks they got from Houston (for Schaub) and the #8 overall pick to move up to #2 with Detroit to draft CJ. Georgia Tech player gets to stay home and play for the falcons with Vick as his QB. A match made in heaven. Detoit would get exactly what they wanted as well.


ya that definetely is possibility for the falcons, if anyone would trade up they could be the best canidate with that extra draft pick, however, they are like us, they've gotten underperforming wr's and their need is @ DL
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:24 am

fleetus wrote:I see Atlanta taking the extra 2nd round picks they got from Houston (for Schaub) and the #8 overall pick to move up to #2 with Detroit to draft CJ. Georgia Tech player gets to stay home and play for the falcons with Vick as his QB. A match made in heaven. Detoit would get exactly what they wanted as well.


Value wise Detroit would be looking for the #8, BOTH of Atlanta's 2nd round picks, AND Atlanta's 3rd! There is no way Detroit moves back to #8 for a second round pick!

That is a lot to give up for a guy that will only touch the ball at most 10 times a game! Atlanta needs a WR in thw worst way and that would be the "worst way".

WR are just not worth a top ten pick, let alone the #8 pick, two 2nd rounders, and a 3rd! Even if he ends upbeing the next Jerry Rice, that would be a bad trade.
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Postby Cappster » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:13 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
fleetus wrote:I see Atlanta taking the extra 2nd round picks they got from Houston (for Schaub) and the #8 overall pick to move up to #2 with Detroit to draft CJ. Georgia Tech player gets to stay home and play for the falcons with Vick as his QB. A match made in heaven. Detoit would get exactly what they wanted as well.


Value wise Detroit would be looking for the #8, BOTH of Atlanta's 2nd round picks, AND Atlanta's 3rd! There is no way Detroit moves back to #8 for a second round pick!

That is a lot to give up for a guy that will only touch the ball at most 10 times a game! Atlanta needs a WR in thw worst way and that would be the "worst way".

WR are just not worth a top ten pick, let alone the #8 pick, two 2nd rounders, and a 3rd! Even if he ends upbeing the next Jerry Rice, that would be a bad trade.


I would make that trade if the player I was trading for was the second coming of Jerry Rice.
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Postby fleetus » Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:51 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
fleetus wrote:I see Atlanta taking the extra 2nd round picks they got from Houston (for Schaub) and the #8 overall pick to move up to #2 with Detroit to draft CJ. Georgia Tech player gets to stay home and play for the falcons with Vick as his QB. A match made in heaven. Detoit would get exactly what they wanted as well.


Value wise Detroit would be looking for the #8, BOTH of Atlanta's 2nd round picks, AND Atlanta's 3rd! There is no way Detroit moves back to #8 for a second round pick!

That is a lot to give up for a guy that will only touch the ball at most 10 times a game! Atlanta needs a WR in thw worst way and that would be the "worst way".

WR are just not worth a top ten pick, let alone the #8 pick, two 2nd rounders, and a 3rd! Even if he ends upbeing the next Jerry Rice, that would be a bad trade.


I agree that WR's aren't my top priority either, but some of them are definitely worth top 10 picks. It's pretty near-sighted to say WR's aren't worth that much, IMO. These guys open up the running game by forcing the safeties backwards. They score, they make bunches of first downs. As a real world example, in 2006 only two RB's, Larry Johnson and LT had more first downs than the following WR's: Harrison, Wayne, Holt, Chad Johnson. Are you saying that moving the chains isn't important enough to a football team to use a top 10 pick? All of those guys I just mentioned had OVER 66 first downs for their teams last year. Naw, WR's are every bit as important a part of a team as the O-line, QB, LB's etc.
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Postby fleetus » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:01 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
fleetus wrote:I see Atlanta taking the extra 2nd round picks they got from Houston (for Schaub) and the #8 overall pick to move up to #2 with Detroit to draft CJ. Georgia Tech player gets to stay home and play for the falcons with Vick as his QB. A match made in heaven. Detoit would get exactly what they wanted as well.


Value wise Detroit would be looking for the #8, BOTH of Atlanta's 2nd round picks, AND Atlanta's 3rd! There is no way Detroit moves back to #8 for a second round pick!

That is a lot to give up for a guy that will only touch the ball at most 10 times a game! Atlanta needs a WR in thw worst way and that would be the "worst way".

WR are just not worth a top ten pick, let alone the #8 pick, two 2nd rounders, and a 3rd! Even if he ends upbeing the next Jerry Rice, that would be a bad trade.


Umm, I did say the extra 2nd round pickS. You quoted me on it. PickS, meaning plural. Evidently Detroit doesn't want Quinn at #2. They would be lambasted by their fans if they chose another WR, since they've totally whiffed on 2 out of the last 3 top 10 WR's they've picked (Mike Williams and Charles Rogers). Persoanlly I think they need to draft Joe Thomas and be done with it, but they have advertised they want to trade down. Sooo, Atlanta, with their new offensive-minded head coach, who is all lovey-dovey with Vick right now, is probably begging to move up for CJ. Just a prediction, no more, no less.

If you follow the draft pick value chart, the #2 for the #8 + #40 calculates a value of 1823 vs. 2179. So the added 2nd rounder would definitely be enough ammo.
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Postby SkinsJock » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:51 pm

Most would agree that Johnson is going to be a great WR and he could even be the best WR ever and that is just what we need! We need a bunch of teams to believe that he is the best ever especially if he is miraculously available at # 6 - that would truly show that some teams are worse at picking players than we have been.

1 super WR with our QB who is just starting his career with what looks like a decent group around him is going to make our offense better BUT a vastly improved defense from all the quality players we will get by making the right decisions here in the next few months will translate into a vastly better team than having the worlds' best ever WR playing with a good offense and a D that still rates in the high 20s.

We all understand the fantasy football fanatics and even have an owner that used to behave like that - we need to get better defensively and offensively not just with 1 great WR but by starting on our D this year and then building through the draft and FA in future years.

If you really think that we will have a better chance at success over the years with the best WR ever than we will with a good solid team offensively and defensively, you might want to go make a lot of money and play NFL owner like someone else did and see how good you do :lol:

We do not need to do much on offense this year IMO we really need to get our D back in gear with all the players we can this year especially if he falls to # 6 and because everyone thinks Johnson is such a great WR and everyone else needs him.

He'd be exciting here but we have a better chance of being a better team without him and improving that D. If you want him then pick him in your fantasy league and leave the real game and draft picks to those who know what they are doing - well, hopefully.
We are very fortunate to have Kirk Cousins but Griffin has a huge upside IMO

Robert needs to continue to get better and to do that he needs time on the field - hopefully sooner than later

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Postby SkinsJock » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:55 pm

Our interest in Calvin Johnson is purely due to what he is worth in other players not for just 1 guy.

there is a snowball's chance in hell that he will be there at 6 :wink:
We are very fortunate to have Kirk Cousins but Griffin has a huge upside IMO

Robert needs to continue to get better and to do that he needs time on the field - hopefully sooner than later

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Postby skinsfan#33 » Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:51 am

fleetus wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
fleetus wrote:I see Atlanta taking the extra 2nd round picks they got from Houston (for Schaub) and the #8 overall pick to move up to #2 with Detroit to draft CJ. Georgia Tech player gets to stay home and play for the falcons with Vick as his QB. A match made in heaven. Detoit would get exactly what they wanted as well.


Value wise Detroit would be looking for the #8, BOTH of Atlanta's 2nd round picks, AND Atlanta's 3rd! There is no way Detroit moves back to #8 for a second round pick!

That is a lot to give up for a guy that will only touch the ball at most 10 times a game! Atlanta needs a WR in thw worst way and that would be the "worst way".

WR are just not worth a top ten pick, let alone the #8 pick, two 2nd rounders, and a 3rd! Even if he ends upbeing the next Jerry Rice, that would be a bad trade.


Umm, I did say the extra 2nd round pickS. You quoted me on it. PickS, meaning plural. Evidently Detroit doesn't want Quinn at #2. They would be lambasted by their fans if they chose another WR, since they've totally whiffed on 2 out of the last 3 top 10 WR's they've picked (Mike Williams and Charles Rogers). Persoanlly I think they need to draft Joe Thomas and be done with it, but they have advertised they want to trade down. Sooo, Atlanta, with their new offensive-minded head coach, who is all lovey-dovey with Vick right now, is probably begging to move up for CJ. Just a prediction, no more, no less.

If you follow the draft pick value chart, the #2 for the #8 + #40 calculates a value of 1823 vs. 2179. So the added 2nd rounder would definitely be enough ammo.


We are using diferent "draft value chart".

I'll show you mine http://www.theredzone.org/2006/draft/draftvaluechart.asp
If you show me yours.

The chart I have shows the #2 pick worth 2600 and the #8 worth 1400. If you add that plus the #40 you get 1900 + the #42 = 2380 + the #74 = 2600. If Atlanta was to offer the 2008 2nd rounder that they got instead of the #42 pick Detroit would come up on the short end, because future year picks are generally "worth" one round less in "draft value". This means that it is worth somewhere between 265 to 116 points, because you don't know wher huston will finish. (it safe to say that they won't do very good)
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Postby fleetus » Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:21 am

skinsfan#33 wrote:
fleetus wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
fleetus wrote:I see Atlanta taking the extra 2nd round picks they got from Houston (for Schaub) and the #8 overall pick to move up to #2 with Detroit to draft CJ. Georgia Tech player gets to stay home and play for the falcons with Vick as his QB. A match made in heaven. Detoit would get exactly what they wanted as well.


Value wise Detroit would be looking for the #8, BOTH of Atlanta's 2nd round picks, AND Atlanta's 3rd! There is no way Detroit moves back to #8 for a second round pick!

That is a lot to give up for a guy that will only touch the ball at most 10 times a game! Atlanta needs a WR in thw worst way and that would be the "worst way".

WR are just not worth a top ten pick, let alone the #8 pick, two 2nd rounders, and a 3rd! Even if he ends upbeing the next Jerry Rice, that would be a bad trade.


Umm, I did say the extra 2nd round pickS. You quoted me on it. PickS, meaning plural. Evidently Detroit doesn't want Quinn at #2. They would be lambasted by their fans if they chose another WR, since they've totally whiffed on 2 out of the last 3 top 10 WR's they've picked (Mike Williams and Charles Rogers). Persoanlly I think they need to draft Joe Thomas and be done with it, but they have advertised they want to trade down. Sooo, Atlanta, with their new offensive-minded head coach, who is all lovey-dovey with Vick right now, is probably begging to move up for CJ. Just a prediction, no more, no less.

If you follow the draft pick value chart, the #2 for the #8 + #40 calculates a value of 1823 vs. 2179. So the added 2nd rounder would definitely be enough ammo.


We are using diferent "draft value chart".

I'll show you mine http://www.theredzone.org/2006/draft/draftvaluechart.asp
If you show me yours.

The chart I have shows the #2 pick worth 2600 and the #8 worth 1400. If you add that plus the #40 you get 1900 + the #42 = 2380 + the #74 = 2600. If Atlanta was to offer the 2008 2nd rounder that they got instead of the #42 pick Detroit would come up on the short end, because future year picks are generally "worth" one round less in "draft value". This means that it is worth somewhere between 265 to 116 points, because you don't know wher huston will finish. (it safe to say that they won't do very good)


Yeah, you're right. I had two different charts. I use the redzone one also. The one I used yesterday was a Fantasy Football draft pick calculator. Not quite the same values! :oops:

Anyway, point is, Atlanta now has the ammo it needs to move up to get CJ, which is my prediction. Bottom line is, there is no reason for us to speculate CJ's worth at #6 because there is no way in hell he falls past #4, as I've stated before.
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:06 pm

[list=]
Year Sel# Player Impact
1982 11 Anthony Hancock ?
1982 13 Lindsay Scott ?
1982 19 Perry Tuttle ?
1982 20 Mike Quick B
1983 18 Willie Gault ?
1984 1 Irving Fryar B+
1984 4 Kenny Jackson ?
1984 17 Clyde Duncan ?
1984 23 Louis Lipps C
1985 10 Al Toon B
1985 13 Eddie Brown ?
1985 16 Jerry Rice HOF
1985 23 Jessie Hester ?
1986 18 Mike Sherrard ?
1986 21 Tim McGee ?
1987 20 Haywood Jeffires ?
1987 27 Ricky Nattiel ?
1987 28 Mark Ingram B
1988 6 Tim Brown B+
1988 7 Sterling Sharpe A
1988 11 Michael Irvin A
1988 15 Anthony Miller ?
1988 20 Aaron Cox ?
1988 27 Wendell Davis ?
1989 13 Eric Metcalf RB
1989 16 Hart Lee Dykes ?
1989 22 Andre Rison B
1989 27 Shawn Collins ?
1991 10 Herman Moore B+
1991 12 Alvin Harper C
1991 13 Mike Pritchard ?
1991 23 Randal Hill ?
1992 4 Desmond Howard F
1993 7 Curtis Conway C
1993 16 Sean Dawkins C
1993 25 O.J. McDuffie B
1994 17 Charles Johnson ?
1994 21 Johnnie Morton C
1994 24 Thomas Lewis ?
1994 29 Derrick Alexander C
1995 4 Michael Westbrook D
1995 8 Joey Galloway C
1995 10 J.J. Stokes F
1996 1 Keyshawn Johnson B+
1996 7 Terry Glenn B
1996 18 Eddie Kennison C
1996 19 Marvin Harrison HOF
1996 24 Eric Moulds B
1997 7 Ike Hilliard C+
1997 15 Yatil Green ?
1997 16 Reidel Anthony F
1997 27 Rae Carruth F
1998 16 Kevin Dyson B
1998 21 Randy Moss B
1998 30 Marcus Nash ?
1999 6 Torry Holt HOF
1999 8 David Boston B+
1999 13 Troy Edwards D
2000 4 Peter Warrick D
2000 8 Plaxico Burress C+
2000 10 Travis Taylor D
2000 21 Sylvester Morris F
2001 8 David Terrell F-
2001 9 Koren Robinson F
2001 15 Rod Gardner D
2001 16 Santana Moss B+
2001 25 Freddie Mitchell F
2001 30 Reggie Wayne A
2002 13 Donte' Stallworth B
2002 19 Ashley Lelie C-
2002 20 Javon Walker B
2003 2 Charles Rogers F
2003 3 Andre Johnson A
2003 17 Bryant Johnson ?
2004 3 Larry Fitzgerald A
2004 7 Roy Williams B
2004 9 Reggie Williams ?
2004 13 Lee Evans C+
2004 15 Michael Clayton C+
2004 29 Michael Jenkins C
2004 31 Rashaun Woods ?
2005 3 Braylon Edwards C+
2005 7 Troy Williamson D
2005 10 Mike Williams F
2005 21 Matt Jones C+
2005 22 Mark Clayton C
2005 27 Roddy White ?
2006 25 Santonio Holmes C[/list]


Above are all of the WRs drafted since 1982 in the first round. A total of 88 (87 if you subtract Eric Metcaft. I have graded them (just my opinion) on how much of an impact they had on a team. I would say if the guy didn't get a B or better than he was a bust for a first round pick.

For the guys I just couldn't remember I gave them a ?. Some of the more recent guys are still a work in progress and I might rate them differently in five years.

I only had 3 guys with HOF type careers and no Irvin wasn't one of them (just my opinion remember) 3 or 4 out of 87 isn't too good < 5%. There were 26 guys I ranked B or better, which comes out to < 30%. So there was about a 70% flop rate for 1st round WR.

Anyone see why I have reservations about CJ.
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Postby fleetus » Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:12 pm

Nice work. However, you could make the same argument for every position in football. The draft is very inexact. 1st round picks:

think they are good enough before they ever play a snap, (and thus suck)
can't handle all the $millions at age 21-22
don't fit their new teams scheme well
get injured early
can't handle the pressure from media and fans
can't handle the pressure of living up to 1st round expectations

Look at David Carr, Tim Couch, H. Schuler, R. Leaf, Ramsey, J. George etc. I know I'm missing another dozen dreadful QB's selected early. You gonna say QB's aren't worth 1st round selections either? It's a crapshoot. Our team simply has to do better homework than the other teams, regardless of position.

Here's a link to Kipers All-Time Biggest 1st round busts (not many WR's on there)
http://espn.go.com/melkiper/s/2001/0406/1168617.html
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:32 pm

fleetus wrote:Nice work. However, you could make the same argument for every position in football. The draft is very inexact. 1st round picks:

think they are good enough before they ever play a snap, (and thus suck)
can't handle all the $millions at age 21-22
don't fit their new teams scheme well
get injured early
can't handle the pressure from media and fans
can't handle the pressure of living up to 1st round expectations

Look at David Carr, Tim Couch, H. Schuler, R. Leaf, Ramsey, J. George etc. I know I'm missing another dozen dreadful QB's selected early. You gonna say QB's aren't worth 1st round selections either? It's a crapshoot. Our team simply has to do better homework than the other teams, regardless of position.



Here's a link to Kipers All-Time Biggest 1st round busts (not many WR's on there)
http://espn.go.com/melkiper/s/2001/0406/1168617.html


You go right ahead and make the arguement for other positions!

Yes QBs are almost as risky as WR, but the reward is much greater with QBs. Take two 49ers for example. Montana (not a 1st rounder by the way) is hailed by many, but not all as the best QB of all time and Rice is hailed almost universally as the best WR to ever play. Montana won two SB without Rice and would have won ATLEAST one more without him. Rice won three SB with Montana and Young and would not have won a single one without them or with the tallent the Skins had at QB during his time in San Fran.

The risk with WRs is just as great as with QBs, yet the reward is not even in the same neighborhood.

No one has ever won a SB because they had the best WR in the NFL on their team, but most SB winning teams had QBs that turned in the best or one of the best performance in the league the year they won the SB.

The Ravens won their only SB, mostly because of Ray Lewis. Say that for a WR!

The Patriots proved that WR mean nothing if you want to win a championship. Dallas and the Stealers won 10 SB and all of them were because of their defense and RBs. You might be able to make the arguement for the Stealers in SB X were Swann had his huge game, but he only scored once and it was on a perfect pass by Bradshaw.

Pick whoever you think the best WR in the NFL is now, would he help the Skins more than Julious Peppers. I rest my case!
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Postby SkinsJock » Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:44 pm

This is still a team game - a better team will most often win - that being said the team with the better defense will win most games.

Last year both QBs were 1st round draft picks but really the Colts won because their defense did a better job than the Bears. Even if Grossman had his best day as a QB, Manning would still have found a way to win because the Bears D in that game could not match up. The Colts D played well enough that Manning just had to stick to the game plan and the Bears were cooked with only 1 RB.

Right now we are looking at an emerging QB with a very good/great RB combo and a decent group of WRs plus a very experienced line - I really believe we are OK there and just need some depth. We do not need to be the greatest on offense (be nice, but pointless) we need to get our defense to be back where it was in 2004 & 2005 and maybe even better!

We need to get very fast and much younger in the next 2 years. I would love to see Fletcher help as MLB BUT also (with Washington) be a mentor to guys like McIntosh and help get our younger guys ready to take over. We need to have a defense that we can be proud od again - A great Washington offense will be all well and good but a defense that keeps giving a good offensive group opportunities and limits the opponents offense will result in a lot more wins.
We are very fortunate to have Kirk Cousins but Griffin has a huge upside IMO

Robert needs to continue to get better and to do that he needs time on the field - hopefully sooner than later

HAIL


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Postby Gibbs4Life » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:52 pm

I'll never forgive blloyd for dropping a sure td that happened to be Jason Campbell's first nfl reg season pass. The guy way way underachieved last year, hoping he steps his game up.
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Postby John Manfreda » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:00 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
SKIN4LIFE wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:He's supposedly considered the best player in the draft. Even though we don't need him some people say that you don't always draft your need, you take the best person available.

1. I'm a fan of getting a dlinmen.
2. I'm in favor of trading down.
3. I'm not ethused about it but I wouldnt be mad if we took Calvin, imo we need a big WR. I dont think now is the time and Lloyd;s leaping ability can fill that need for now.


I agree. I have been enjoying the fact that us Redskin fans may have a reason to watch the entire draft next year, and if we move up this year in the draft, you know that will mean we gave away picks for next year. Seeing their interest does scare me a little bit, but like you also said, he would be the big receiver we need, with speed to go with his large frame.


And by some weird stroke of "luck" he may be available at the 6th spot, so they'll need to know what he can do depending on what they need to do. Everyone is interested in this kid but I doubt we really want him.

He won't be available at the 6th pick I willing to bet 1000 bucks on that.

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