We may have interest in Calvin Johnson?

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Postby SkinsFreak » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:11 pm

funbuncher wrote:Guys, I have a theory here...

1) We have heard Gibbs say that moving up is apparently easier than moving down.

2) We've heard that the Lions were after Springs during the trade talks for Bly.

3) The Lions have yet to sign any replacements for Bly.

4) We have now added Smoot and Macklin.

5) We've heard that the entire staff showed up at the Georgia Tech pro-day.


I'm just sayin'...


Interesting observation.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/nflinsid ... g_ser.html

Gibbs Says Redskins Having Serious Trade Discussions About Moving Up In Draft
PHOENIX, Ariz.--Washington Redskins Coach Joe Gibbs said here today that nothing is "imminent" in a proposed trade with the Chicago Bears for linebacker Lance Briggs, and indicated that the Redskins also are giving serious consideration to trading up in the first-round order in next month's NFL draft.


Gibbs said the Redskins have spoken to two teams about trading up in the draft order. He said the Redskins have a "couple players" in mind if they land a top-five selection, and hinted that one of them might be Georgia Tech wide receiver Calvin Johnson.

"I think everybody here would like to have him," Gibbs said
.


A real possibility.

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Postby SkinsJock » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:30 pm

I would not mind getting Johnson but it better not involve any picks from next year. NONE

This year we all know that we need to get much better on D and this offense has to just be as good as they can be with who we have now!

Getting the future best ever WR will just make the offense a little better this year and much better next year when Campbell is a really good NFL QB.
BUT this offense will also be much better next year with who we have now and the players we will add next year.

The defense needs help now and next year they also need to get younger and quicker :lol:

this means we are not taking Johnson this year - we do not need him.
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Postby SkinsFreak » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:54 pm

This is not specific to SkinsJock, but meant in general.

We all know we want help on our d-line. We've all discussed our needs on defense a thousand times. We can sit here all day long and think up a zillion reasons why we don't need CJ, as we've already done.

But I'd love to hear some possible trade scenarios regarding this one and how it might work, if they were going to do something like this... an argument in favor of this trade. What would be some "war room" like discussions in favor of this trade? Would it include Springs or some other offer? It's always prudent to evaluate all possibilities from every angle. So for the sake of discussion, let's ponder this one... you know... just for fun.

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Postby jazzskins » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:19 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:The Ravens won their only SB, mostly because of Ray Lewis. Say that for a WR!

Huh? I watched that game.....it looked to me like they won because of the Front Four!

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Postby skinsfan#33 » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:24 pm

SkinsFreak wrote:This is not specific to SkinsJock, but meant in general.

We all know we want help on our d-line. We've all discussed our needs on defense a thousand times. We can sit here all day long and think up a zillion reasons why we don't need CJ, as we've already done.

But I'd love to hear some possible trade scenarios regarding this one and how it might work, if they were going to do something like this... an argument in favor of this trade. What would be some "war room" like discussions in favor of this trade? Would it include Springs or some other offer? It's always prudent to evaluate all possibilities from every angle. So for the sake of discussion, let's ponder this one... you know... just for fun.


How about trading Springs to Detroit for their 2nd round pick. Trade down to 8-11 and pick up a third. With the first we take a DT or DE and with the second we take a guard /safety / or DT/DE whomever is rated the highest and with the third we draft what we didn't take in rounds 1 or 2. Man 3 first day draft choices would be better than any WR.
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:30 pm

jazzskins wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:The Ravens won their only SB, mostly because of Ray Lewis. Say that for a WR!

Huh? I watched that game.....it looked to me like they won because of the Front Four!


Whatever. They sure as heck didn't win it because of their WR's.
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Moving up to #2 for CJ

Postby funbuncher » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:31 pm

SkinsFreak wrote:This is not specific to SkinsJock, but meant in general.

We all know we want help on our d-line. We've all discussed our needs on defense a thousand times. We can sit here all day long and think up a zillion reasons why we don't need CJ, as we've already done.

But I'd love to hear some possible trade scenarios regarding this one and how it might work, if they were going to do something like this... an argument in favor of this trade. What would be some "war room" like discussions in favor of this trade? Would it include Springs or some other offer? It's always prudent to evaluate all possibilities from every angle. So for the sake of discussion, let's ponder this one... you know... just for fun.



Well just for fun... :)

First of all, according to the NFL draft value chart, the difference between the 2nd and 6th picks is 1000 points (2600 - 1600). That's a prett hefty gap. How do we bridge it?

According to the previous theory, Springs would be packaged with the 6th pick... at least.

1000 points would be equal to the value of the 16th pick in the draft, coincidently the same point differential between the 6th and 31st which we learned during the Briggs haggling. I doubt Springs is considered the equivalent of 1000 points.

My memory is fuzzy so bear with me through this... I remember some talk that the Lions were trying to get Springs from us for Bly. Now I can't remember if there was anything else involved with that. I'll go back and read some of LaCanfora's blog or the Post... can't remember exactly where I read that... But if we consider that Bly and Springs have similar value, then we can look at what Detroit got for Bly to figure the value of Springs.

Detroit sent Bly to Denver for T George Foster, RB Tatum Bell, and a 5th round pick (34 points).

Thomas Jones was a much more impresive back than Bell last year, and the Bears only got the equivalent of a 3rd for him (they swapped 2nd's) in their trade with the Jets, so Tatum's value would have to be lower than that even though he was a 2nd round pick just a few years ago (he was picked with the 2nd rounder we gave up along with Champ for CP, DOHHH!).

So let's say he is equal to a mid 4th? That would be 70 points + the 34 so 104 points.

George Foster, I don't know who to compare him to... this isn't looking like we are going to get anywhere close to making Springs worth 1000 points though, IF we are assumings Springs and Bly to be relatively similar in value.

It's starting to look like my previous theory doesn't hold much water unless sadly, we ARE considering throwing in some picks or at least some other players as well. Of course I may be totally wrong about Springs value. In my not so rational, Redskins homer mind, I can easily see Springs' value equal to a mid 2nd rounder which is equal to 420 points, and maybe if Matt Millen wants him bad enough, he will too.

If so, that leaves about 580 points we need to make up. No one wants to hear this, but our next years 1st rounder would be considered equal to a 2nd rounder from this year, which would be 520 points if we consider it the 6th pick in the second... not sure if they use your current position or the middle of the round (420 pts at 16th)(since there is no way of knowing where a team will finish the next year). 420 + 520 is 940. The remaining 60 is equal to a 4th rounder this year (which we don't have) or a 3rd from next year. So if we manage to pull this off for less than Springs and next years 1st and 3rd, it would "technically" be a good deal. :shock: Hopefully my calculations are wrong because that sounds like a ridiculous crapload.

I also remember reading somewhere on this site during the conversation about us trading with Denver to get Bly, someone figuring out that Bly was being regarded as 3rd round pick value (190 points) when trying to calculate how many draft picks the Broncos would have to give us to move up to 6. They were throwing in Bly, their 1st, 2nd, 3rd plus...

Two things in our favor though is that...

1) There are not a lot of corners out there right now, and Springs is the current cream of the crop, (unless you consider Asante Samual), and there are no slam dunk corners in the draft either.

2) Detroit is supposedly desperate to trade down. Millen want a DE, CB, or Patrick Willis I hear, and no one at that position is worthy of the #2 overall pick, and on top of that, supposedly he's afraid to take another WR because of the PR fallout in Detroit if he does. (Don't know if I buy that last part considering they already hate him).

So if he trades down with us, he can still get a DE (Gaines Adams), a CB (Springs), and take a little pressure off himself by not picking so high.

But I have a hard time with the notion that we would consider ourselves better off with CJ, than with Springs AND Gaines Adams, not to mention our 1st and 3rd from next year, but this is just for the sake of argument.

Unless the Lions value Springs much higher than I am guessing, this just isn't a reasonable trade for us. Of course, we have done the unreasonable before.

Sorry bout the length, what do you think? What else do we have to offer besides next years picks, since Gibbs said we weren't trading away ANY picks from 2008. Hard to believe someone might lie at this time of year. :)

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Postby SKIN4LIFE » Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:59 am

I think that B Lloyd would be involved in the trade if we moved up to #2. Picking Johnson would leave us with 4 high paid recievers, and if one were to go it would have to be B. Lloyd. Maybe we could package the #6 pick, Springs, and Lloyd in return for the #2 pick, and later draft picks. Just a thought. I think the lions value Springs, and due to all the reciever's they have drafted who have under performed, I think B. Lloyd would be a perfect fit for them as the #2 reciever. Plus, based on the way Millen has ran this franchise, he probably doesn't even know the draft value card exist. Just my opinion.
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Postby SkinsFreak » Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:42 am

Well, I think that's a good assessment.

The only reason I wanted to think about this some more is because there are a few things that keep popping into my head. Bare with me here...

1. The last two drafts were somewhat of a surprise for most Skins fans as the Skins made some unexpected moves. Last year, I'm not sure anyone was thinking that they were going to trade up in the 2nd round to take Rocky McIntosh. In 2005, most fans were expecting and wanting the Skins to draft Mike Williams, because our WR core was awful the previous year. I can remember watching the draft that year. I remember thinking that when the Skins were still on the clock, and Mike Williams was still available, we were gonna get our WR. Then I heard.... "With the 9th selection in the 2005 NFL draft, the Redskins select Auburn corner back, Carlos Rogers." Only to be followed by the selection of QB Jason Campbell at #25. At first, it was a real head scratcher. Who thought that was going to happen? Now this year, drafting a DT or a DE seems so obvious at this time, that I can't help thinking that we may get another surprise.

2. We always hear that defense wins championships, and there is a lot of truth to that. But on the flip side, you won't win many games in a season if you can't score points.

We have examples of Super Bowl winning teams like the Ravens, who had very good defenses and a very average offense, and we have a team like the Colts, who have a great offense with great receivers and a great QB, but have a very average defense. Granted their defense played better in the post season this year, they still have been average at best over the past few seasons and their run defense has been at the bottom of the stat charts.

The Skins red zone offense has been pretty bad over the past few years. I can only imagine how a 6'5, 230 pound WR with great hands will help our red zone offense. How many DB's in the league are that big and could cover a guy in the red zone of that size? Some, but not that many. Add to that the fact that the guy runs a 4.35... Anyway, we would have a chance to actually score TD's in the red zone and not always have to settle for the field goal. How namy more games would we have won last year if we simply could have scored a few more TD's while in the red zone?

3. Matt Millen. Can he be had for the taking? Well, obviously, the Lions AND the Skins have had some questionable draft history, especially lately. Both teams need to exit this offseason with some positive reviews. The Skins and Gibbs are already heading in the right direction. No one really knows what Millen is thinking or planning.

Gibbs and Millen have a history together; Millen formally played for Gibbs, so they know each other pretty well. It wouldn't surprise me if they both think they can help each other out this year, as both are in a position to do so. So with regard to draft points and the perceived values of players that could be traded, like Springs, there could be some wiggle room and some compromise's made.

In conclusion, it's those things that make me think something could happen. We also have no idea, at this point, what their master plan is for the upcoming season on both offense and defense. I'm not saying that moving up to draft CJ is the absolute right thing to do; we obviously have other holes to fill, but an unforseen move like this, that has happened the last two years in a row, wouldn't surprise me at all. And further, getting a big possession receiver like that wouldn't kill me.

My 2 cents

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Postby Fios » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:58 am

I wasn't surprised in the least by either the Rogers pick or the move to get McIntosh and I have no special connections at Redskins Park
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Postby PulpExposure » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:10 am

Fios wrote:I wasn't surprised in the least by either the Rogers pick or the move to get McIntosh and I have no special connections at Redskins Park


Me either. I would have been absolutely shocked if we had picked Mike Williams, really.

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Postby SkinsFreak » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:22 am

Perhaps I should have articulated that a little differently. Not so much that we took a DB, a QB and a LB, but who had Rogers, Campbell and Rocky specifically on their radars? I believe some may have, but not everyone. Based on the lack of production at the WR position in 2004, it was not a stretch for fans to think that we might take Mike Williams, as many analysts projected that year.
Last edited by SkinsFreak on Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby 1niksder » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:30 am

SkinsFreak wrote:Perhaps I should have articulated that a little differently. Not so much that we took a DB, a QB and a LB, but who had Rogers, Campbell and Rocky specifically on their radars? I believe some may have, but not everyone.

When Washington made the trade with Denver they said it was a move to get Campbell :shock: still don't understand why they anounced who they were tarketing so far in advance. They may have noticed Rogers while working out JC and I'm still not sure it was Rocky they were after when they made the trade to move up.
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:40 am

1niksder wrote:
SkinsFreak wrote:Perhaps I should have articulated that a little differently. Not so much that we took a DB, a QB and a LB, but who had Rogers, Campbell and Rocky specifically on their radars? I believe some may have, but not everyone.

When Washington made the trade with Denver they said it was a move to get Campbell :shock: still don't understand why they anounced who they were tarketing so far in advance. They may have noticed Rogers while working out JC and I'm still not sure it was Rocky they were after when they made the trade to move up.


If I remember right with Rogers weren't there 3 top corners and he was the one left? We said he's the one we really wanted (which we would have said I'm sure for whichever one dropped to us).

And Rocky too was in a position everyone knew we wanted and one of the ones discussed who might fall far enough for us to trade up and get him. He did and we did.

True though once you get past the first few picks no one knows for sure who you're targeting. I agree butwhy would you tell other teams that anyway?
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Postby PulpExposure » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:35 pm

SkinsFreak wrote:Based on the lack of production at the WR position in 2004, it was not a stretch for fans to think that we might take Mike Williams, as many analysts projected that year.


Except the month before the draft we traded for Santana Moss....and signed him to a big contract. WR was seen as far less of a need position after that, relative to other needs we had at the time.

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