Tebow's Our Future Leader Get Used To It

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Postby PulpExposure » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:35 pm

Countertrey wrote:I think Holmgren is wrong. New muscle motor patterns can be made permanent.

There is no muscle activity more complicated than speech. When I was very young, I had a significant speech impediment. Working with a very good speech therapist, over many months, that was corrected.


Differences here are that you were very young (and you know how quickly children can learn), and Tebow's been using this throwing motion for probably a decade. That's a lot of unlearning.

Does it mean it's impossible? No. But when you have to fix someone's throwing motion, AND teach them how to read a defense...that's a lot. Even for demigod Tim Tebow.

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Postby Countertrey » Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:59 pm

PulpExposure wrote:
Countertrey wrote:I think Holmgren is wrong. New muscle motor patterns can be made permanent.

There is no muscle activity more complicated than speech. When I was very young, I had a significant speech impediment. Working with a very good speech therapist, over many months, that was corrected.


Differences here are that you were very young (and you know how quickly children can learn), and Tebow's been using this throwing motion for probably a decade. That's a lot of unlearning.

Does it mean it's impossible? No. But when you have to fix someone's throwing motion, AND teach them how to read a defense...that's a lot. Even for demigod Tim Tebow.


When I say "very young", I mean about 10/11. Not a great deal of advantage over an adult.

He needn't "unlearn" anything. It's a matter of replacing an old pattern... not of "unlearning"... and it is a finite pattern. Essentially a single group of muscle movements, repeated ad infinitum. Because it is limited in its breadth, it is not as difficult as you suspect...

If you, as an adult, have to learn to speak a single sentence in Spanish to perfection (actually a more complex motor task than throwing a ball), you would be able to do this without a lot of difficulty... over a few months... all you need is persistence, a coachable attitude, and a good coach.

Teaching the throwing motion, and learning to read NFL defenses are two entirely different tasks... the latter being far more cerebral than the former, which is little more than repetition under direct coaching. Tebow probably has the persistence and discipline to do both... but considering that no one is likely to ask him to win a game for several years, that's not really a big deal, is it?

My opinion is that Holmgren is wrong. That hasn't changed.
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Postby PulpExposure » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:19 pm

Countertrey wrote:
PulpExposure wrote:
Countertrey wrote:I think Holmgren is wrong. New muscle motor patterns can be made permanent.

There is no muscle activity more complicated than speech. When I was very young, I had a significant speech impediment. Working with a very good speech therapist, over many months, that was corrected.


Differences here are that you were very young (and you know how quickly children can learn), and Tebow's been using this throwing motion for probably a decade. That's a lot of unlearning.

Does it mean it's impossible? No. But when you have to fix someone's throwing motion, AND teach them how to read a defense...that's a lot. Even for demigod Tim Tebow.


When I say "very young", I mean about 10/11. Not a great deal of advantage over an adult.

He needn't "unlearn" anything. It's a matter of replacing an old pattern... not of "unlearning"... and it is a finite pattern. Essentially a single group of muscle movements, repeated ad infinitum. Because it is limited in its breadth, it is not as difficult as you suspect...

If you, as an adult, have to learn to speak a single sentence in Spanish to perfection (actually a more complex motor task than throwing a ball), you would be able to do this without a lot of difficulty... over a few months... all you need is persistence, a coachable attitude, and a good coach.


I'd say that throwing a football is a wee bit harder than memorizing one phrase in a language we're familiar with. In the former, you're throwing the ball under pressure, to different spots on the field, with varying degrees of lift and velocity.

In the other, it's just memorization. Hollywood actors/actresses can replicate accents fairly well, and do it in no time, and there are legions of such people (especially think of the English/Australian actors who mimic "American" accents to near perfection).

I can't think of many successful NFL QBs who have rebuilt their throwing motion, however. Maybe that's just my ignorance, but I seriously cannot think of any?

Just FYI on that throwing session:

For all the positives, though, there were still some negatives and glimpses of his old delivery. We counted four times when Tebow clearly went back to his old windmill motion and dropped the ball near his hip when winding up to throw. Two of those instances came late in the session when he was tiring, the other two when he was trying to put some extra heat on intermediate throws.


Or:

The early results were good, as Tebow shortened his delivery and showed good velocity on short routes. As the workout continued, Tebow's flaws began to surface as he now has a pause in his throwing motion and when he rolled out, his arm would drop just as it did before. Tebow struggled as the day went on with accuracy throwing outs as his receivers had to wait or come back for the football and rarely did an out hit a receiver on the numbers. In summation, Tebow looked better throwing the football than he did in Mobile, but as one NFL scout told me, "If he didn't wear an orange Florida helmet he'd be a sixth- or seventh-round pick."


As soon as he got tired/couldn't concentrate, he reverted to his old delivery. That's not exactly comforting, since he was throwing in a controlled environment, with zero pass rush pressure on him.

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Postby BigRedskinDaddy » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:58 am

I've said it before and I'll say it again, come what may this draft: anyone who goes higher than 3rd round on TT, OR drafts him as anything other than a TE/H-back/FB. is an idiot...period.

No ifs, ands or buts.

That said, however...I've been wrong before. :)
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Postby Gibbs4Life » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:46 pm

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/n ... id=5037036

Bill Belichick had a private dinner w/TT, I doubt he's afraid to take him late in round 1. If we pass on a qb @4 we could miss out on Tebow at #37
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:52 pm

Gibbs4Life wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/news/story?id=5037036

Bill Belichick had a private dinner w/TT, I doubt he's afraid to take him late in round 1. If we pass on a qb @4 we could miss out on Tebow at #37

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Postby SkinsJock » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:54 pm

IF we cannot get Bradford then we should get as many offensive linemen as we can

we do not need a project QB - we need a great QB
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Robert has to make a huge effort to show he's got what it takes to be a future great QB - we need the real RG3 not the hyped version

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Postby SkinsJock » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:55 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Gibbs4Life wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/news/story?id=5037036

Bill Belichick had a private dinner w/TT, I doubt he's afraid to take him late in round 1. If we pass on a qb @4 we could miss out on Tebow at #37

I sleep with a revolver in the night stand. If that happens, I'll just end it right there...


I'd be done too but that ain't happening :wink:
Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they are open

Robert has to make a huge effort to show he's got what it takes to be a future great QB - we need the real RG3 not the hyped version

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Postby djactionman » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:16 pm

Guys like Bellicheck can do whatever they want.


And I like Tebow, he seems like a great kid, I wish him all the best. But, he really does need some refining. After the Senior Bowl I have a lot of questions about him, he will need to learn a lot of things. He's not going to be able to pull of the same stuff at the NFL level. He can't just take up and pick up the first down with his feet as easily as he is used to, but the threat will allow him to throw more and with confidence. He needs to be able to go through his progressions and read defenses to succeed.
One thing though that I will give:
He appears to be a VERY coachable and sharp guy with football. Shanny can get this guy to succeed. There are plenty of coaches that know similar things and wouldn't be afraid to take him.
There are many teams that can pull that trigger and not look back, only takes one. I don't think he's going to fall out of the second round like people might say. People will trade up for him with the fear that they won't be able to wait.

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Postby djactionman » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Guys like Bellicheck can do whatever they want.


And I like Tebow, he seems like a great kid, I wish him all the best. But, he really does need some refining. After the Senior Bowl I have a lot of questions about him, he will need to learn a lot of things. He's not going to be able to pull of the same stuff at the NFL level. He can't just take up and pick up the first down with his feet as easily as he is used to, but the threat will allow him to throw more and with confidence. He needs to be able to go through his progressions and read defenses to succeed.
One thing though that I will give:
He appears to be a VERY coachable and sharp guy with football. Shanny can get this guy to succeed. There are plenty of coaches that know similar things and wouldn't be afraid to take him.
There are many teams that can pull that trigger and not look back, only takes one. I don't think he's going to fall out of the second round like people might say. People will trade up for him with the fear that they won't be able to wait.

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Postby Countertrey » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:58 pm

Guys like Bellicheck can do whatever they want.


This is absolutely true. The teams that are most likely to take a chance on Tebow are those that are already wealthy. They can afford the luxury of working with a project QB over an extended period of time. They also have spare picks they can waste, and plenty of overall talent in the hopper already.
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Postby Gibbs4Life » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:36 pm

La Canfora said on Total Access today that the Patriots and the Seahawks could be looking to cut in front of us at 37 to take TT.
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Postby andyjens89 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:48 pm

Gibbs4Life wrote:La Canfora said on Total Access today that the Patriots and the Seahawks could be looking to cut in front of us at 37 to take TT.


Hopefully they will trade WITH us
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Postby fleetus » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:03 am

No, Patriots have plenty of extra picks, as always, so they have more flexibility to move wherever they need to. Plus, you don't trade with a team in order to take a player that team wants also.

Every QB coming out of college needs ALOT of work to become a good NFL QB. This is what makes Tebow so intriguing. He knows he has to work hard to achieve greatness and we all know he will work like a dog until he gets it done. You look at some of these QB's coming out of college (J. Russel, Leinert etc) and they think they are stars before ever going to training camp. The number one attribute I would look for in a QB is work ethic. It is what has made Peyton Manning a star.
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Postby langleyparkjoe » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:53 am

Work ethic? Well Tebow definitely has that for sure
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