Lichtensteiger's knee scoped - What Shape is the O Line in?

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Postby Hooligan » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:35 pm

markshark84 wrote:
Yes, if we were able to pick up 2 solid OLs off waivers (which is 99% unlikely), it would help. Then again, we will be looking thru a pool of the 10th-12th best OL on a particular team; to be our 6th-8th best . Still not a great situation to be in.



The Redskins have one thing going for them in this scenario: the scheme works best with a certain type of lineman. There may be a player on another team's bubble who could contribute here because he fits our system better than theirs. Just a thought.
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:10 pm

Last year, our backups gelled and played well. People were/are high on Helu and Royster during the same period.


My question is. How can those same linemen now be bums? Yet people are still high off of the performances they helped created for our two RB's?

That logic isn't clicking for me... I'm not saying we have a great situation but I don't think it's as dire as people make it out to be. There's def room for improvement.
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Postby frankcal20 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:19 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Last year, our backups gelled and played well. People were/are high on Helu and Royster during the same period.


My question is. How can those same linemen now be bums? Yet people are still high off of the performances they helped created for our two RB's?

That logic isn't clicking for me... I'm not saying we have a great situation but I don't think it's as dire as people make it out to be. There's def room for improvement.
The problem last year was we were thin at depth. On top of that, we lost most of our line to injury in consecutive weeks. So if you look at weeks 4-8 or 10, we didn't rush the ball well. After that, once folks were moved around and had played a few games together, the rushing numbers dramatically improved and the running game was present.

In the draft, we got 3 interior lineman who all can play multiple interior positions so worse case scenario, if an interior lineman goes down, we're ok. Our biggest issue will be at tackle if we don't get someone. I also have to think that with the salary cap hit we took, that killed any chance that we had of getting a starter on the line. We'll have to address that next year. Folks have a hard time looking at it entirely and are just reactionary without looking at all the facts. Folks, we'll be ok as long as guys stay healthy but this is the same for every team in the NFL.

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Postby oneman56 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:25 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Last year, our backups gelled and played well. People were/are high on Helu and Royster during the same period.


My question is. How can those same linemen now be bums? Yet people are still high off of the performances they helped created for our two RB's?

That logic isn't clicking for me... I'm not saying we have a great situation but I don't think it's as dire as people make it out to be. There's def room for improvement.



I agree, and the same line you're referencing that played well down the stretch last year just did it again in the 3rd pre-season game, allowing Alfred to run for over 100 yards on 14 carries (i understand it's the Colts but they still played a decent game). I don't think anyone's contention is that the Skins' could possibly land a waiver wire pick-up that would make this a top 10 o-line but if there's someone that can help with depth or fits the system it's better than doing nothing and worth a shot. And, in regards to Ryan Harris, I can tell you that living here in Denver and watching the Broncos a lot...nobody was touching Cutler when he and Clady were healthy. So, if by chance, the Skins' did acquire him and he's healthy it couldn't do anything but possibly give us an option where we need it.

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Postby Irn-Bru » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:28 pm

markshark84 wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:Our problem isn't that we lack decent starters as it is that we lack good depth. When healthy we have a middle-of-the-pack line. So the upgrade we're looking to get from other teams — and some people other teams cut can make a real improvement to our bench — will be addressing our greatest area of concern on the OL.

Then next year, we work more on the starters.

Honestly, we lack both. At a minimum, we NEED another starting tackle and guard.

"NEED" for what? To be a top-10 offensive line? I agree, but you'll notice that's irrelevant to my post.


We also NEED depth at tackle and guard. Yes, if we were able to pick up 2 solid OLs off waivers (which is 99% unlikely), it would help. Then again, we will be looking thru a pool of the 10th-12th best OL on a particular team; to be our 6th-8th best . Still not a great situation to be in.

And when you are assembling an OL, "health" should always be taken into consideration. Therefore, I don't care about the "when healthy" because in reality, relying on all 5 starters being consistently healthy is unrealistic and shortsighted. When was the last time our 5 starters all played 14+ games in one season? The OL is the most injured position in the NFL. A good GM knows this and assembles their OL using this very principle.

I have no idea what you are going on and on about. Are you talking to me, or just the rabble in general, or are you saying something to me that you'd say to Bruce if you had the chance? Very confusing.

I think its even worse that the state of our OL is an "at best mediocre" scenario

We are not "at best mediocre." We are likely to be mediocre, just like we were last year. Our at best looks something more like the last 5-6 games of last year, in which our line was better than average and pushed around the eventual Super Bowl champs at will. I do not expect that same performance of this line week in, week out, however.

And next year we will work on our starters??? We only have one pick where you will find a clear starter.

Right. And then you turn to trades / FA to look for another. I predict we'll have two new starters next year that were acquired between March and April. We'd have one of them already if it wasn't for the cap penalty, but what can you do about that?

Everyone also knows that franchises don't let their solid OL starters go unless: (1) their old, (2) they want too much money, or (3) they have "issues".

What an overblown statement. You're saying you'd never wander into FA for an offensive guard or tackle and acquire a starter that way? Ridiculous. Just in the last year the Skins could have benefited from bringing in Eric Winston, Demetress Bell, Carl Nicks, or Ben Grubbs. (I don't remember any of the other names floating around in March but there were others that could have replaced one of our current starters.)

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that there are very few, if any, NFL teams without an FA starting on the line. The best teams / offensive lines have them, at any rate, which is proof enough of the ridiculousness of this argument.


What I'm really saying is that this franchise has consistently overlooked the OL position and it continues to bit them in the behind.

What I'm saying is the o-line isn't as bad as many seem to think, and right now our biggest issue is with quality depth. With as much as you wrote, one might suspect you were trying to disagree with me, but I'm not so sure of that myself.
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:28 pm

frankcal20 wrote:We only need a backup LT and either an upgrade at RT or backup.


I agree. If you are talking NEED. My preference would be a starting RT and LG (Lichten.. would be the 1st backup at LG, C, and RG).

Of course we should have addressed that in FA. A starting RT would have been more important than a 3rd or 4th WR for the Skins to sign. We could have taken the money we spent on Morgan to get a RT or LG!

But hey, we will have a WR to throw to (when ever RG3 is upright!)
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Postby frankcal20 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:31 pm

Didn't we sign both those guys out the gate and then the sanctions were handed down just a few days before the draft? I think it's clear we're a draft board guy. Not a need based drafting team.

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Postby skinsfan#33 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:43 pm

frankcal20 wrote:Didn't we sign both those guys out the gate and then the sanctions were handed down just a few days before the draft? I think it's clear we're a draft board guy. Not a need based drafting team.


The sanctions were handed out prior to FA starting; just hours, but prior to it opening.

I think they tried to get a couple of OL (Mathis, Grubbs, Winstin) but the bidding got too high. They must not have thought too highly on Winstin because he signed with KC for a very affordable contract. Grubbs got rediculous money (so did Nicks) and I think Mathis just chose Philly over DC.

I know thet pursued OL, they just didn't have them as high of a priority as WR. I can see why at LG (even though I don't trust KL's knee!) but not addressing RT was inexcusable.
Last edited by skinsfan#33 on Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby markshark84 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:43 pm

frankcal20 wrote:We only need a backup LT and either an upgrade at RT or backup.


The way I see it Lich is injury plagued -- he has 0% chance of lasting the whole year. Chester is okay, but could be upgraded. Gettis may be good, but he's a 5th rounder and, IMHO, would be starting if MS thought highly of him. You need 4 good guards in a rotation. LeRibeus is a rookie but projected below Hurt, who isn't solid as it is. Chester should be a good reserve. IMHO, we need another starter and one additional reserve if Gettis doesn't pan out -- which we'll know by seasons end.

We 100% need a starting RT. Polumbus is a fine reserve. Williams is a solid starter. Compton, Lee, Smith aren't serviceable reserves. Thus we need a starter and reserve.

Now please note that these "needs" aren't to make a mediocre OL. This is to make a quality OL. If we want a mediocre line, then all we need is a starting RT -- but winning teams have top OLs. So in my eyes, the team will remain "mediocre" as long as our line is.
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:50 pm

markshark84 wrote:Now please note that these "needs" aren't to make a mediocre OL. This is to make a quality OL. If we want a mediocre line, then all we need is a starting RT -- but winning teams have top OLs. So in my eyes, the team will remain "mediocre" as long as our line is.


I can't agree.

With everyone healthy we have a solid OL (read better than mediocre or average), the problem is an OL almost NEVER stays healthy. The odds of every OL making it through the season is about as good as getting struck by lightning (which is better odds than winning the lottery)!

So I can see where you are at, but don't agree with the starting quality of our OL.
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Postby Red_One43 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:50 pm

welch wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:Promising observation from Keim. To me, the key thing that he pointed out is the need for cohesion in this scheme. With Kory coming back, hopefully ready to go, cohesion will be basically acheived. Kory will be back with Trent and Monty and Chester and Polumbus played together last year along side Monty. This is not a Super Bowl line, but if the patchwork job that we ended up with last year could finish the season well. This unit, with a quick release QB, can do even better.


And this would be the BEST OL we could muster BEFORE the regular season and the injuries which often come with it during 16-game long gard-fought season?

The weakest unit of the team in my mind. Let's hope for the best (and wait for the next Draft/FA).


Yes, there will be injuries, but we have depth this year. Gettis and LeRibeus get better with each game. Polumbus has gotten better. We have Hurt as experience depth. We do need a tackle to back up Polumbus and Trent - the swing tackle is needed. Looks like Willie Smith stagnated and is not that guy.


Maybe Smith will surprise?


In an interview of the O line coach, he said that Compton and Black had surpassed Smith. Now, that could have been done to motivate White, but since he wasn't getting the playing time that these guys were playing I wouldn't think that that is the case. This was in one of the reports posted on the training camp thread. I can't remember which one. A lot of the media had been wondering about Smith. The O line coach also said that there is an expectation of where a second year tackle should be, but Smith isn't there. My apologies for posting this by memory.
Last edited by Red_One43 on Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Red_One43 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:00 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
frankcal20 wrote:We only need a backup LT and either an upgrade at RT or backup.


I agree. If you are talking NEED. My preference would be a starting RT and LG (Lichten.. would be the 1st backup at LG, C, and RG).

Of course we should have addressed that in FA. A starting RT would have been more important than a 3rd or 4th WR for the Skins to sign. We could have taken the money we spent on Morgan to get a RT or LG!

But hey, we will have a WR to throw to (when ever RG3 is upright!)


Alright, Skinsfan. You were right about mobile QBs getting sacked more likely than stationary QBs, but what you didn't figure in and still are not is the quick release of RGIII. John Keim did an analysis of how quick RGIII is getting the ball out, he was Manningesque. He showed where the O line would vave given up a sack or a least a hit, but the quick release made them the line look better in the Bills game. Sometimes a QB like Grossman and Beck make a line look worst then they are and a QB like Peyton make a line looked better than they are.

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Postby Red_One43 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:08 pm

frankcal20 wrote:We only need a backup LT and either an upgrade at RT or backup.


Spot one here. You have Hurt as a back up guard and may be the starter if Kory can't go. Hurt made due last year and will have to make do for this year. You have two young guards to develop in LeRibeus and Gettis who are showing that they are getting better with each game. Also both play center. We do have Compton for future development.

Polumbus can hold his own, at RT (he did last year), but he is not the guy you want to be your long term starter. We have no immediate depth at LT unless Smith makes a turnaround. I hope he does, but I have readnothing lately that he has improved and I haven't been watched to see how much he played in the Colt game.

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Postby Red_One43 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:16 pm

Red_One43 wrote:
welch wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:Promising observation from Keim. To me, the key thing that he pointed out is the need for cohesion in this scheme. With Kory coming back, hopefully ready to go, cohesion will be basically acheived. Kory will be back with Trent and Monty and Chester and Polumbus played together last year along side Monty. This is not a Super Bowl line, but if the patchwork job that we ended up with last year could finish the season well. This unit, with a quick release QB, can do even better.


And this would be the BEST OL we could muster BEFORE the regular season and the injuries which often come with it during 16-game long gard-fought season?

The weakest unit of the team in my mind. Let's hope for the best (and wait for the next Draft/FA).


Yes, there will be injuries, but we have depth this year. Gettis and LeRibeus get better with each game. Polumbus has gotten better. We have Hurt as experience depth. We do need a tackle to back up Polumbus and Trent - the swing tackle is needed. Looks like Willie Smith stagnated and is not that guy.


Maybe Smith will surprise?


In an interview of the O line coach, he said that Compton and Black had surpassed Smith. Now, that could have been done to motivate White, but since he wasn't getting the playing time that these guys were playing I wouldn't think that that is the case. This was in one of the reports posted on the training camp thread. I can't remember which one. A lot of the media had been wondering about Smith. The O line coach also said that there is an expectation of where a second year tackle should be, but Smith isn't there. My apologies for posting this by memory.


OK, I found one report on Willie Smith -not the one I was looking for, but I will keep looking:

A few people have asked about Willie Smith. Well, he’s not in anyone’s doghouse. He just hasn’t been good enough to move past those ahead of him. Starting three games last year (and playing in four) didn’t mean he’d automatically improve. Sometimes players stay the same, even with experience (See: Heyer, Stephon). Anyway, Smith had some rough moments today. One occurred vs. Ryan Kerrigan; no shame in that. But it’s also the sort of player he must stop if he wants to win a job. More on Kerrigan in a minute. But Chris Wilson also beat Smith a few times. Wilson is a backup trying to win a roster spot. He’s had a good camp, too, and I’ve always enjoyed him. However, if Smith wants to contend for a starting job he needs to stop this sort of player. Period. Wilson popped into Smith’s shoulder pads on a play and stood him up. A quick throw prevented any real pressure. On the next play Wilson caught Smith leaning over too low after they engaged. Wilson jerked him to the side.


http://washingtonexaminer.com/redskins- ... le/2504849

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Postby Red_One43 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:21 pm

Still not the Willie Smith article, I am looking for, but I am showing that Willie Smith struggles have not gone unnoticed.

John Keim's Redskins Thoughts

Willie Smith remains eligible for the practice squad. A few weeks ago I wouldn’t have double checked that information because I’d have put him as perhaps the last lineman. But, as of now, he hasn’t exactly stood out nor shown that he’s improved from last season. Because Smith was on the active roster for only seven games last season (and was a free agent) he can still get cut and placed on the Redskins’ practice squad. It’s hard to see him making the final roster based on his performance this summer and those ahead of him. Yes, he had a minor injury in camp. But it came because Rob Jackson steamrolled him in a one-on-one drill, a bad sign. Smith has worked at both left and right tackle. However, he still has trouble reacting to counter moves. Rookie Tom Compton, a sixth-round pick, has worked ahead of him at left tackle. Jordan Black also is a swing tackle and would be the veteran backup teams like if he proves he can still help.

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