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Postby Countertrey » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:19 am

Didn't Jason Campbell go 8 games without a pick once?

just sayin...
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:02 pm

Countertrey wrote:Didn't Jason Campbell go 8 games without a pick once?

just sayin...


Rex didn't throw an interception last year either. lol
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Postby Deadskins » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:40 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
Deadskins wrote:I'm not saying those things aren't true. But the fact remains that not turning the ball over outweighs those deficiencies in his game.


The lack of turnovers was huge, it was special. But when placed within the context of what he was asked to do. Having a scheme that make throwing lanes unusually large. Only being asked to make 1-2 reads a majority of the time. That's why the turnover ratio doesn't make him the best QB, thats why it doesn't outweigh his deficiencies.

If you put Robert in Lucks offense, his turnovers would have been a lot higher and possibly higher than Lucks. Luck was used to making multiple reads and going through progressions and he struggled. Robert was essentially given training wheels (WHICH WAS A GREAT IDEA AND MORE COACHES SHOULD DO IT), which made his transition easier. But let's not speak as if he was running a complicated offense, he wasn't.

So you say. I don't agree with you about the 1-2 reads either. On his first TD pass in the season opener, Garcon was read #3, and he was under pressure. I don't think his accuracy has anything to do with unusually large throwing lanes either. Maybe if he's rolled out. But more often than not, guys were covered, and he just put the ball in a perfect spot. Don't forget, he led the league in yards per reception too, so it's not like he was throwing high percentage dinks and dunks.
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Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:25 pm

Deadskins wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
Deadskins wrote:I'm not saying those things aren't true. But the fact remains that not turning the ball over outweighs those deficiencies in his game.


The lack of turnovers was huge, it was special. But when placed within the context of what he was asked to do. Having a scheme that make throwing lanes unusually large. Only being asked to make 1-2 reads a majority of the time. That's why the turnover ratio doesn't make him the best QB, thats why it doesn't outweigh his deficiencies.

If you put Robert in Lucks offense, his turnovers would have been a lot higher and possibly higher than Lucks. Luck was used to making multiple reads and going through progressions and he struggled. Robert was essentially given training wheels (WHICH WAS A GREAT IDEA AND MORE COACHES SHOULD DO IT), which made his transition easier. But let's not speak as if he was running a complicated offense, he wasn't.

So you say. I don't agree with you about the 1-2 reads either. On his first TD pass in the season opener, Garcon was read #3, and he was under pressure. I don't think his accuracy has anything to do with unusually large throwing lanes either. Maybe if he's rolled out. But more often than not, guys were covered, and he just put the ball in a perfect spot. Don't forget, he led the league in yards per reception too, so it's not like he was throwing high percentage dinks and dunks.


There's another stat on accuracy that takes into account the drops and tips too... It exists somewhere, what ever it is... And I remember RGiii one of, if not THE best on the list.

I disagree that his passing game was "easier then everyone else's" , it wasnt nearly as pedestrian as some people like to think...
A. It's still the NFL he played against, and professional D fences, and smart coordinators- some of em twice
B.Who he's throwing too- like a Megatron?! wouldn't even say we had Steve Smith caliber hands- week in and out at least (pittsburgh)
C.he did it consistently all year

Now of course I've seen him stare his guy down, show me a qb who never does, but I've also see him hit the 2nd look but AFTER he's gone through all his progressions... And look off a lb to free up someone on the opposite side. He probably can improve on that and his pump fakes, but I don't thing anyone, really, is leagues ahead of him in any department.
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:10 pm

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
Deadskins wrote:I'm not saying those things aren't true. But the fact remains that not turning the ball over outweighs those deficiencies in his game.


The lack of turnovers was huge, it was special. But when placed within the context of what he was asked to do. Having a scheme that make throwing lanes unusually large. Only being asked to make 1-2 reads a majority of the time. That's why the turnover ratio doesn't make him the best QB, thats why it doesn't outweigh his deficiencies.

If you put Robert in Lucks offense, his turnovers would have been a lot higher and possibly higher than Lucks. Luck was used to making multiple reads and going through progressions and he struggled. Robert was essentially given training wheels (WHICH WAS A GREAT IDEA AND MORE COACHES SHOULD DO IT), which made his transition easier. But let's not speak as if he was running a complicated offense, he wasn't.

So you say. I don't agree with you about the 1-2 reads either. On his first TD pass in the season opener, Garcon was read #3, and he was under pressure. I don't think his accuracy has anything to do with unusually large throwing lanes either. Maybe if he's rolled out. But more often than not, guys were covered, and he just put the ball in a perfect spot. Don't forget, he led the league in yards per reception too, so it's not like he was throwing high percentage dinks and dunks.


There's another stat on accuracy that takes into account the drops and tips too... It exists somewhere, what ever it is... And I remember RGiii one of, if not THE best on the list.

I disagree that his passing game was "easier then everyone else's" , it wasnt nearly as pedestrian as some people like to think...
A. It's still the NFL he played against, and professional D fences, and smart coordinators- some of em twice
B.Who he's throwing too- like a Megatron?! wouldn't even say we had Steve Smith caliber hands- week in and out at least (pittsburgh)
C.he did it consistently all year

Now of course I've seen him stare his guy down, show me a qb who never does, but I've also see him hit the 2nd look but AFTER he's gone through all his progressions... And look off a lb to free up someone on the opposite side. He probably can improve on that and his pump fakes, but I don't thing anyone, really, is leagues ahead of him in any department.


You're fooling yourself if you do not believe the read-option made throwing the ball unusually simple for Robert, Russell and Kap. It's all the media talked about, it paralyzes linebackers.

RG3 is great but you guys need to get a grip on reality. Nobody is discrediting him, but lets be honest about what's going on.
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Postby The Hogster » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:30 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
Deadskins wrote:I'm not saying those things aren't true. But the fact remains that not turning the ball over outweighs those deficiencies in his game.


The lack of turnovers was huge, it was special. But when placed within the context of what he was asked to do. Having a scheme that make throwing lanes unusually large. Only being asked to make 1-2 reads a majority of the time. That's why the turnover ratio doesn't make him the best QB, thats why it doesn't outweigh his deficiencies.

If you put Robert in Lucks offense, his turnovers would have been a lot higher and possibly higher than Lucks. Luck was used to making multiple reads and going through progressions and he struggled. Robert was essentially given training wheels (WHICH WAS A GREAT IDEA AND MORE COACHES SHOULD DO IT), which made his transition easier. But let's not speak as if he was running a complicated offense, he wasn't.

So you say. I don't agree with you about the 1-2 reads either. On his first TD pass in the season opener, Garcon was read #3, and he was under pressure. I don't think his accuracy has anything to do with unusually large throwing lanes either. Maybe if he's rolled out. But more often than not, guys were covered, and he just put the ball in a perfect spot. Don't forget, he led the league in yards per reception too, so it's not like he was throwing high percentage dinks and dunks.


There's another stat on accuracy that takes into account the drops and tips too... It exists somewhere, what ever it is... And I remember RGiii one of, if not THE best on the list.

I disagree that his passing game was "easier then everyone else's" , it wasnt nearly as pedestrian as some people like to think...
A. It's still the NFL he played against, and professional D fences, and smart coordinators- some of em twice
B.Who he's throwing too- like a Megatron?! wouldn't even say we had Steve Smith caliber hands- week in and out at least (pittsburgh)
C.he did it consistently all year

Now of course I've seen him stare his guy down, show me a qb who never does, but I've also see him hit the 2nd look but AFTER he's gone through all his progressions... And look off a lb to free up someone on the opposite side. He probably can improve on that and his pump fakes, but I don't thing anyone, really, is leagues ahead of him in any department.


You're fooling yourself if you do not believe the read-option made throwing the ball unusually simple for Robert, Russell and Kap. It's all the media talked about, it paralyzes linebackers.

RG3 is great but you guys need to get a grip on reality. Nobody is discrediting him, but lets be honest about what's going on.


I agree in part. The read option helped him in the passing game. But, I wouldn't say that it's unusually simple. It's more like an added weapon that RGIII's talent allows the team to run. His ability to throw accurately and run is what makes it work. He's still got to be able to run the engine and be accurate. In other words, you can't really plug Rex Grossman in there and then have him fake the run and get the same effect. It's his ability to hit guys in tight spaces, throw deep and run that make it happen.

Guys were not always wide open, that one seam route to the tight end or the wide receiver over the middle was usually open. But, we more often had throws like the one to Santana back shoulder in the Dallas game. Or the loft TD to Santana in the Eagles game. Or the Garcon TD in the first game. Dude was making that offense run, not the other way around IMO.
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Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:48 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
Deadskins wrote:I'm not saying those things aren't true. But the fact remains that not turning the ball over outweighs those deficiencies in his game.


The lack of turnovers was huge, it was special. But when placed within the context of what he was asked to do. Having a scheme that make throwing lanes unusually large. Only being asked to make 1-2 reads a majority of the time. That's why the turnover ratio doesn't make him the best QB, thats why it doesn't outweigh his deficiencies.

If you put Robert in Lucks offense, his turnovers would have been a lot higher and possibly higher than Lucks. Luck was used to making multiple reads and going through progressions and he struggled. Robert was essentially given training wheels (WHICH WAS A GREAT IDEA AND MORE COACHES SHOULD DO IT), which made his transition easier. But let's not speak as if he was running a complicated offense, he wasn't.

So you say. I don't agree with you about the 1-2 reads either. On his first TD pass in the season opener, Garcon was read #3, and he was under pressure. I don't think his accuracy has anything to do with unusually large throwing lanes either. Maybe if he's rolled out. But more often than not, guys were covered, and he just put the ball in a perfect spot. Don't forget, he led the league in yards per reception too, so it's not like he was throwing high percentage dinks and dunks.


There's another stat on accuracy that takes into account the drops and tips too... It exists somewhere, what ever it is... And I remember RGiii one of, if not THE best on the list.

I disagree that his passing game was "easier then everyone else's" , it wasnt nearly as pedestrian as some people like to think...
A. It's still the NFL he played against, and professional D fences, and smart coordinators- some of em twice
B.Who he's throwing too- like a Megatron?! wouldn't even say we had Steve Smith caliber hands- week in and out at least (pittsburgh)
C.he did it consistently all year

Now of course I've seen him stare his guy down, show me a qb who never does, but I've also see him hit the 2nd look but AFTER he's gone through all his progressions... And look off a lb to free up someone on the opposite side. He probably can improve on that and his pump fakes, but I don't thing anyone, really, is leagues ahead of him in any department.


You're fooling yourself if you do not believe the read-option made throwing the ball unusually simple for Robert, Russell and Kap. It's all the media talked about, it paralyzes linebackers.

RG3 is great but you guys need to get a grip on reality. Nobody is discrediting him, but lets be honest about what's going on.


While my shades are certainly tinted, I've watched and rewatched enough to have a fair assessment of his talents. I know you have aswell, so we both know what he did in that formation- and in the others... Let's be real for a moment then:
After the initial reaction to the snap in the read option (post option) its a regular play.. Also, it didn't fool everyone everytime. So to say he'd have failed in the colts system is false.. he made smart choices with the football on MOST plays regardless, and that in turn produced minimal TOs.
And the system worked because of RGiii not do to ts simplicity. We also ran many formations, so how does the read option take credit to his success? Mcnugget and sexy rexy couldn't have ran any offense that well, so I don't understand the knock on RGiii..?

*I know you love him, and aren't bashing him.. I debate this frequently with puke fans who protest they still have the better qb, so enlighten me if I'm missing something
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Postby Deadskins » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:38 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:You're fooling yourself if you do not believe the read-option made throwing the ball unusually simple for Robert, Russell and Kap.

If it were that simple, every team would be doing it, not just three.
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:06 am

Deadskins wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:You're fooling yourself if you do not believe the read-option made throwing the ball unusually simple for Robert, Russell and Kap.

If it were that simple, every team would be doing it, not just three.


3 did it last year. We'll have a 4th in our division, this year. And we'll see where Geno goes, that's 5. And whoever else that may pop up.

I'm not saying it's THAT easy, but it makes the transition for this college kids a lot easier than just sticking them in an offense they're not accustomed to.
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Postby The Hogster » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:53 am

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:You're fooling yourself if you do not believe the read-option made throwing the ball unusually simple for Robert, Russell and Kap.

If it were that simple, every team would be doing it, not just three.


3 did it last year. We'll have a 4th in our division, this year. And we'll see where Geno goes, that's 5. And whoever else that may pop up.

I'm not saying it's THAT easy, but it makes the transition for this college kids a lot easier than just sticking them in an offense they're not accustomed to.


Andrew Luck played in a Pro Style system for his entire college career. And, he went to team that runs one. So can't the same be said for him? Wouldn't it be just as tough for Luck to go from Pro Style to a Read Option or West Coast O?

I think RGIII is just revolutionizing the offense to the point where an NFL team started to use it--it worked so well that the Seahawks & 49ers added it midway through the year.
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:02 am

The Hogster wrote:Andrew Luck played in a Pro Style system for his entire college career. And, he went to team that runs one. So can't the same be said for him? Wouldn't it be just as tough for Luck to go from Pro Style to a Read Option or West Coast O?

I think RGIII is just revolutionizing the offense to the point where an NFL team started to use it--it worked so well that the Seahawks & 49ers added it midway through the year.


I think RGIII took the read/option way into the stratosphere, further than anyone could have imagined. His limitations are only experience in a pro-style system, he's fully capable of running it and running it greatly.

Regardless of the QB, if you put these 2 systems on paper, I believe that the general consensus is that the read/option is the "easier" system out of the two. I believe that Luck would have had issues running it. I believe that RGIII would have issues running a pro-style offense. However, if they swapped places and you asked me who would succeed more in that situation. I'd say Luck because it's an "easier" system.

It's not a slight to RGIII, I'm not speaking negatively about him. The fact that this system caught fire is testament to how amazing he is and teams will copy-cat it and fail. But all bias aside, it's not the complicated system out of the two.

I believe that RGIII's work ethic and dedication (if he wasn't injured) would have (will in the future) allow him to potentially surpass Luck in that he'll be able to run both offenses at a very high level... Even though I believe this to be true, it has yet to occur.

In regards to Luck running our system, Lucks speed is very underrated. He had a lot of success on the ground this year.
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Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:08 pm

The play action- that help breezy, rodgers, and anyone else you want to name isn't much different imo.
Establish the run early.
Hit a few quick passes early.
And the play action freezes the lbs...
I know its a different formation, and rgiii can hand it off instead of fake it, but its not entirely different. HIS attributes make it run different. Puck wouldn't be nearly as succesful because he didn't break the rookie qb rushing record. I think its taking advantage of rgiiis talents more then "easing him in" or making the transition easier...
That's my point.

Plus he is just as dangerous with an empty backfield.

Perfect qb rating w 4 tds isnt something just any rookie can do... In fact only one has. -and the replay shows me that it isn't because of the easy system... Like when he's scrambling and extending plays all game.
Lucks speed IS good.. as fast as Cam, but you'd only be fooling yourself if u thought he could RUN like Cam or Rgiii.
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:19 pm

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:The play action- that help breezy, rodgers, and anyone else you want to name isn't much different imo.


It's totally different. His legs make it different. He's reading the DE and making a decision.

Traditional PA has two variables. Read/Option introduces a third that further hinders a defense, this making it easier to exploit them.
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Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:07 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:The play action- that help breezy, rodgers, and anyone else you want to name isn't much different imo.


It's totally different. His legs make it different. He's reading the DE and making a decision.

Traditional PA has two variables. Read/Option introduces a third that further hinders a defense, this making it easier to exploit them.


Totally different??

His legs make every.play different. Case in point the 4th down scramble vs nyg game one. Move, dodge, evade, duck, run, pass complete. His threat to run is always on the table because he has Olympic caliber speed.

Care to explain to.me how a play action play, with RGiii behind center, is "totally different" then the read option?

Doesn't every QB "read" the defense presnap and make choices based on their judgment?

RGiii on the colts all of a sudden becomes immobile? Just because its called a "pro style" offense?

I get what your saying bro, but my argument from the beginning is RGiii makes the system successfull not the other way around. More importantly, the notion that he'd struggle in a "pro STYLE" offense is ludicrous. He smashed pro defenses week in and week out, from multiple formations.

You can think the key to our top ranked O was the system, the west coast style, zone blocking, or Alfred Morris... I choose to believe the key was Robert, and he made all the other things better- including Alfred.
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:10 pm

Lol never mind
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