What Happened???

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Re: What Happened???

Postby Irn-Bru » Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:02 pm

chiefhog44 wrote:They tried to frontload the contracts of both Hanesworth (and I believe Hall) to accelerate their contracts in a year that was deemed to have an unspoken salary cap.

I still have no idea what you're talking about. Albert Haynesworth and DeAngelo Hall were signed to the offending contracts in February 2009. Mike Shanahan was named head coach of the Skins in January 2010.

Vinny Cerrato and the Redskins FO at the time structured the Haynesworth/Hall deals to put the majority of the money in the uncapped year.

. . . But you want to pin the blame on Shanahan and Allen?

I agree that we got hosed, but this has been upheld by the league, the union, and the courts,

CT already knocked this out of the park, but I'll add one thing: the players' union didn't side with the Redskins because it was part of the new bargaining agreement that they wouldn't question the League on matters like these. (The NFLPA agreed to this in order to avoid a lower cap.)

So we've got Mara-Goodell ruling that the Skins broke an unwritten rule, the players' union having their hands tied by the NFL, and a court saying they couldn't make a ruling because it wasn't their jurisdiction. Hardly a ringing endorsement of the penalty.

so ultimately, I think the blame rests on the person or people in this case, that were trying to "work" the system. Correct me if I'm wrong on that though.

Do you realize yet that this means you can't blame Shanahan/Allen for it, by your own logic?


This would then be carried over to the lack of talent on the defense since I hear people say, well, we had a salary cap hit of 36 million so we suck on defense. Not having 1st round picks also can not be used as an excuse as they were the ones that gave them away.

They did not "give them away," they traded them for RGIII. You are trying to have this both ways, so I'd like you to choose one. Which is it: RGIII, or draft picks? You can't say it was a mistake to trade them away without also saying that drafting RGIII was a mistake. And if RGIII is not your QB, whom would you say we should have acquired?

Simply put, when are these coaches going to be judged on their work and have no more excuses???

I'm happy to judge Shanahan and Allen (and the rest) for their work. But the charges you brought against them largely fall flat. You've got some good things to say about the lack of talent on defense, bad coaching on defense, and the special teams mess, but everything else is contrary to the facts.
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Re: What Happened???

Postby riggofan » Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:53 am

chiefhog44 wrote:They tried to frontload the contracts of both Hanesworth (and I believe Hall) to accelerate their contracts in a year that was deemed to have an unspoken salary cap. I agree that we got hosed, but this has been upheld by the league, the union, and the courts, so ultimately, I think the blame rests on the person or people in this case, that were trying to "work" the system. Correct me if I'm wrong on that though. This would then be carried over to the lack of talent on the defense since I hear people say, well, we had a salary cap hit of 36 million so we suck on defense. Not having 1st round picks also can not be used as an excuse as they were the ones that gave them away.


I don't think there is any arguing that point. But if they hadn't tried to game the contract system, wouldn't we still have been in salary cap hell because of the existing Hall and Haynesworth contracts?

chiefhog44 wrote:Simply put, when are these coaches going to be judged on their work and have no more excuses???


I am judging them on their work, and personally I think the fact that they've done as well as they have in these circumstances and after having to repair the mess made by Cerrato and Snyder is INCREDIBLE. I'd just really like to see them have at least one season with a decent young roster (which we really do have) and the same type of cap flexibility most teams have to make a few moves and not have to start the season trying to make the best of it.

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Re: What Happened???

Postby SkinsJock » Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:46 pm

This franchise won the NFC East last season …

since that time we have IMO upgraded the franchise a little with players returning from injury and the coaching staff is basically the same (a new ST coordinator)

why are we not seeing a better product on the field?

simply put - if there is not 'improvement' OVER THE WHOLE SEASON, then I would expect changes to be made by the FO

coincidently, we're at the same place we were last season where Mike let everyone know that coaches AND players were going to be evaluated based on their contribution from the next 7 games

I'm looking forward to these coaches and players showing that they can do a lot better than they have
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Re: What Happened???

Postby Kilmer72 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:04 pm

riggofan wrote:
chiefhog44 wrote:They tried to frontload the contracts of both Hanesworth (and I believe Hall) to accelerate their contracts in a year that was deemed to have an unspoken salary cap. I agree that we got hosed, but this has been upheld by the league, the union, and the courts, so ultimately, I think the blame rests on the person or people in this case, that were trying to "work" the system. Correct me if I'm wrong on that though. This would then be carried over to the lack of talent on the defense since I hear people say, well, we had a salary cap hit of 36 million so we suck on defense. Not having 1st round picks also can not be used as an excuse as they were the ones that gave them away.


I don't think there is any arguing that point. But if they hadn't tried to game the contract system, wouldn't we still have been in salary cap hell because of the existing Hall and Haynesworth contracts?

chiefhog44 wrote:Simply put, when are these coaches going to be judged on their work and have no more excuses???


I am judging them on their work, and personally I think the fact that they've done as well as they have in these circumstances and after having to repair the mess made by Cerrato and Snyder is INCREDIBLE. I'd just really like to see them have at least one season with a decent young roster (which we really do have) and the same type of cap flexibility most teams have to make a few moves and not have to start the season trying to make the best of it.



Yeah, I wanted to say that too. Either way we were screwed. Seeing as it was a no cap year I don't blame the Skins or Cowboys for trying. The part that gets me is when you make an example of someone or someones, and others didn't take part in the collusion, then why for Gods sake did they only have to put hurt on two teams? Answer = Mara. It's the good ole boys club and if you aren't part of the group, then YOU MUST OBEY SLAVE.
Last edited by Kilmer72 on Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What Happened???

Postby brad7686 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:18 pm

The problem with the offense is that the entire offensive line aside from Trent are people other teams decided couldn't pass block well enough to play in the NFL. Rg3 is not an immobile quarterback. It just goes to show you how bad they get dominated on pass plays. So they better run and do the option plays because they aren't gonna have any time. That's what happened the last two losses, they were running smart quick plays and switched to plays that they can't block.

The defense just sucks and they need to fire Haslett, add new personnel, and possibly switch the scheme back.
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Re: What Happened???

Postby SkinsJock » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:14 pm

ah! that's the key! - if things aren't working it must be the scheme - give me a break

I agree that we are not playing defense very well but it's MOST certainly not because of the scheme …


but what do I know … maybe we need to change the scheme on offense and special teams at the same time

let's start another throw them all out thread …. :roll:
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Re: What Happened???

Postby riggofan » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:22 pm

I just worry that if you switch back to the 4-3, you're in the same boat again. Another two or three years of trying to get the right players to run THAT scheme. With some cap room next year, I would hope we could pick up a player or two to fill in some of the places where we're lacking in the 3-4. Maybe a guy in the draft?

I don't know. I'm just not in favor of more change just for the sake of change.

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Re: What Happened???

Postby Kilmer72 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:11 pm

riggofan wrote:I just worry that if you switch back to the 4-3, you're in the same boat again. Another two or three years of trying to get the right players to run THAT scheme. With some cap room next year, I would hope we could pick up a player or two to fill in some of the places where we're lacking in the 3-4. Maybe a guy in the draft?

I don't know. I'm just not in favor of more change just for the sake of change.


I agree 100%, although, I am still a little peeved that they tried to fix something that wasn't broke and failed; we had many problems on offense.

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Re: What Happened???

Postby cleg » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:30 pm

I am really disappointed in the coaching of this team. I had not illusions (well, small ones) that this team would be Super Bowl bound or anything but even with the cap penalties and Robert recovering this team is regressing. I hope that they fire the Shanahan family - I really think that with more clever and forward thinking coaching this team has the basics to be good.
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Re: What Happened???

Postby SkinsJock » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:18 pm

Kilmer72 wrote:
riggofan wrote:I just worry that if you switch back to the 4-3, you're in the same boat again. Another two or three years of trying to get the right players to run THAT scheme. With some cap room next year, I would hope we could pick up a player or two to fill in some of the places where we're lacking in the 3-4. Maybe a guy in the draft? I don't know. I'm just not in favor of more change just for the sake of change.
I agree 100%, although, I am still a little peeved that they tried to fix something that wasn't broke and failed; we had many problems on offense.


not sure I understand what they "tried to fix" … at the end of last season we were the NFC East champs ..

we did NOT have any major changes and especially on defense we get players back that would/should make us better …

we are NOT seeing better play from the Redskins - NOT on defense, NOT on offense and NOT on Special Teams

we didn't have to "fix" anything - we are just not playing OR coaching as well as we were

we are not better than we were and we should be
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Re: What Happened???

Postby Kilmer72 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:29 pm

I was referring to the switch from 43 to 34. According to them (Shanahans) or Mike in particular, the 43 doesn't create turnovers, yet the 2010 Neworleans Saints 43 created more than any defense that year. I could be wrong, but what I remember; this is exactly what happened.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... r/2010.htm


Not only that but our previous 43 was usually top 12 which our fearsome 34 has yet to achieve. Not only that but they as in JH have said in the past they do not care about stats or yards. Seems to me I would rather have teams not score very many points but, what do I know?

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Re: What Happened???

Postby Kilmer72 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:48 pm

Also, when a lot of teams are dipping into the draft pool to get 34 guys like tweeners, it leaves people open that can be 43 defensive linemen. As in defensive ends. Like I said before what do I know? I am just a fan that sees things differently than others. Some of these tweeners a la Rakpo can't cover. Philip Daniels said he was his size once.

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Re: What Happened???

Postby SkinsJock » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:05 pm

Kilmer72 wrote:I was referring to the switch from 43 to 34. According to them (Shanahans) or Mike in particular, the 43 doesn't create turnovers, yet the 2010 Neworleans Saints 43 created more than any defense that year. I could be wrong, but what I remember; this is exactly what happened.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... r/2010.htm


Not only that but our previous 43 was usually top 12 which our fearsome 34 has yet to achieve. Not only that but they as in JH have said in the past they do not care about stats or yards. Seems to me I would rather have teams not score very many points but, what do I know?


THIS JUST IN - we won the NFC East with a group of players on defense that helped this team go 7-0

we actually "added" players this offseason with the return of some really good players ….

this has NOTHING to do with scheme - NOTHING!

GET IT?
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Re: What Happened???

Postby Kilmer72 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:12 pm

SkinsJock wrote:
Kilmer72 wrote:I was referring to the switch from 43 to 34. According to them (Shanahans) or Mike in particular, the 43 doesn't create turnovers, yet the 2010 Neworleans Saints 43 created more than any defense that year. I could be wrong, but what I remember; this is exactly what happened.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... r/2010.htm


Not only that but our previous 43 was usually top 12 which our fearsome 34 has yet to achieve. Not only that but they as in JH have said in the past they do not care about stats or yards. Seems to me I would rather have teams not score very many points but, what do I know?


THIS JUST IN - we won the NFC East with a group of players on defense that helped this team go 7-0

we actually "added" players this offseason with the return of some really good players ….

this has NOTHING to do with scheme - NOTHING!

GET IT?


yes I get it. I would like to know what the problem is then? If it has nothing to do with scheme. This team is better than last year but yet we won the NFC east. This year doesn't give me that feeling like last year when we were 3 and 6. I wish someone would explain the problem on defense for this year. Maybe it is you that can do this. Please.

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Re: What Happened???

Postby oneman56 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:18 pm

SkinsJock wrote:
Kilmer72 wrote:I was referring to the switch from 43 to 34. According to them (Shanahans) or Mike in particular, the 43 doesn't create turnovers, yet the 2010 Neworleans Saints 43 created more than any defense that year. I could be wrong, but what I remember; this is exactly what happened.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... r/2010.htm


Not only that but our previous 43 was usually top 12 which our fearsome 34 has yet to achieve. Not only that but they as in JH have said in the past they do not care about stats or yards. Seems to me I would rather have teams not score very many points but, what do I know?


THIS JUST IN - we won the NFC East with a group of players on defense that helped this team go 7-0

we actually "added" players this offseason with the return of some really good players ….

this has NOTHING to do with scheme - NOTHING!
GET IT?

We won the NFC East in a down year mostly due to a prolific offense that the league wasn't quite ready for and admittedly some good coaching by Haslett (hard to imagine right now) that got just enough out of our defense.. As far as adding players in the offseason and the return of good players, who cares and what has it done? The defense is atrocious and your comments have nothing to do with them debating what they think should've been addressed when Shanny arrived and what should have been left alone. If you think the current scheme AND players on defense is going to win then i don't know what to say to you. Our 3-4, no matter how you look at it, has yet to be consistent and has yet to carry this team for any stretch. Maybe this has nothing to do with scheme, maybe it has everything. I still see guys uncovered, we still can't rush the passer and we still don't get off the field on 3rd downs. So, scheme, coaching players, I don't care but take a pick and leave the excuses of winning last year where they belong..in the past. The point they were making is that we had a good defense that perhaps was better left alone.

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