Collinsworth blames cap for Redskins' woes

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Re: Collinsworth blames cap for Redskins' woes

Postby StorminMormon86 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:50 pm

riggofan wrote:Here's what Don Banks/SI wrote about it on Tuesday:

Sources close to the situation in D.C. say they don't think Redskins owner Daniel Snyder has made up his mind yet on whether he wants to bring Shanahan back in 2014, and things could still go either way. But the key sub-plot to watch may be offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan, the coach's son. I'm told that if the Redskins decide they want to part ways with Mike Shanahan with one year at $7 million left on his contract, they'll likely ask him to fire Kyle as OC, knowing he won't do it, but hoping he'll walk away from the fifth and final season of the deal.

That seems optimistic and way too easy of a conclusion, and I'm not sure why Mike Shanahan wouldn't call their bluff, make them fire him and collect his money.


Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/ne ... z2mXo5aP4b

This is precisely what I think (and kind of hope) will happen. I think he'll be pressured into firing Kyle, won't do it, and then resign from the position.

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Re: Collinsworth blames cap for Redskins' woes

Postby Kilmer72 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:30 pm

StorminMormon86 wrote:
riggofan wrote:Here's what Don Banks/SI wrote about it on Tuesday:

Sources close to the situation in D.C. say they don't think Redskins owner Daniel Snyder has made up his mind yet on whether he wants to bring Shanahan back in 2014, and things could still go either way. But the key sub-plot to watch may be offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan, the coach's son. I'm told that if the Redskins decide they want to part ways with Mike Shanahan with one year at $7 million left on his contract, they'll likely ask him to fire Kyle as OC, knowing he won't do it, but hoping he'll walk away from the fifth and final season of the deal.

That seems optimistic and way too easy of a conclusion, and I'm not sure why Mike Shanahan wouldn't call their bluff, make them fire him and collect his money.


Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/ne ... z2mXo5aP4b

This is precisely what I think (and kind of hope) will happen. I think he'll be pressured into firing Kyle, won't do it, and then resign from the position.


People can say what they want about Kyle but his offense works. He does call some boneheaded plays but he also has put out an offense that works out there. He seems to have the Giants number. They can't really stop us, it is usually us that gets us unhinged. Even when Rex was out there receivers run wrong routes and QB makes a bad throw. I hear from ESPN radio from Cooley talking about what is in house is a totally different story from what we think on the outside. For example, people wonder why Rex is even on the team. Cooley says they know who Rex is, and many of those interceptions are a product of people running bad routes and people tipping balls and so forth. He says you need Rex on your team. (I think he is insinuating that talent is a problem) Makes me wonder just how bad Robert is really struggling.

I personally get ticked off at the strategy on offense at times. I also see that our receivers are wide open and something else screws it up. I also see dropped balls when they can make some kind of acrobatic catch and then drop one right in the bread basket.

It's not Kyle. I think it is a head coach that just doesn't jump in there enough to help out in the coaching woes. They are position coaches for a reason.

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Re: Collinsworth blames cap for Redskins' woes

Postby HTTRRG3ALMO » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:01 am

Deadskins wrote:No cap hit next year, and even if we gave up what turns out to be a high 1st rounder, that just means all of our other picks are high in their round too. And in 2015, we'll not only have all of our money, but all of our picks too.


Hang on, are you saying that our record this year affects the draft picks for EVERY round next year? I was under the impression it only applied to the 1st round.

I'd love for it to apply every round. All this draft placement and compensatory picks never made much sense to me.

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Re: Collinsworth blames cap for Redskins' woes

Postby HTTRRG3ALMO » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:16 am

Kilmer72 wrote:
I personally get ticked off at the strategy on offense at times. I also see that our receivers are wide open and something else screws it up. I also see dropped balls when they can make some kind of acrobatic catch and then drop one right in the bread basket.



I literally laughed out loud at these lines...

You see Hank making a one-arm catch that could make a gazelle look like a sloth bear. Throw him a perfect pass, its dropped.

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Re: Collinsworth blames cap for Redskins' woes

Postby SkinsJock » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:47 am

HTTRRG3ALMO wrote:
Deadskins wrote:No cap hit next year, and even if we gave up what turns out to be a high 1st rounder, that just means all of our other picks are high in their round too. And in 2015, we'll not only have all of our money, but all of our picks too.


Hang on, are you saying that our record this year affects the draft picks for EVERY round next year?
I was under the impression it only applied to the 1st round.

I'd love for it to apply every round. All this draft placement and compensatory picks never made much sense to me.


:shock: - OK, how did you think the draft order was established after the first round?
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Re: Collinsworth blames cap for Redskins' woes

Postby riggofan » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:34 pm

SkinsJock wrote:
HTTRRG3ALMO wrote:
Deadskins wrote:No cap hit next year, and even if we gave up what turns out to be a high 1st rounder, that just means all of our other picks are high in their round too. And in 2015, we'll not only have all of our money, but all of our picks too.


Hang on, are you saying that our record this year affects the draft picks for EVERY round next year?
I was under the impression it only applied to the 1st round.

I'd love for it to apply every round. All this draft placement and compensatory picks never made much sense to me.


:shock: - OK, how did you think the draft order was established after the first round?


lol. Yes the draft order in the first round is the same in every later round.

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Re: Collinsworth blames cap for Redskins' woes

Postby RayNAustin » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:22 pm

riggofan wrote:
StorminMormon86 wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:I'm with CC to the extent that common sense must obviously recognize the severity of the cap hit on personnel. Of course it hurt the team ... very painful to be sure. But that does not explain (or make disappear) years 1&2, and the glaring errors made then.

And while acknowledging the fact that Mike S. has done a very good job in his draft picks (yes I said a very good job), other areas, not so much. And it's possible that my concern is more related to Kyle, rather than Mike, but the two are a package deal, so at the end of the day, it still comes back to Mike.

Furthermore, to those willing to give Mike and Kyle a pass, but condemn Haz is just beyond my grasp, since I strongly believe that the defense has been impacted more by the cap hit. True, a couple of oline upgrades might do wonders ... the defensive secondary is by far the weakest area on the team, and also one of the worst areas to be deficient.

But if someone can explain to me how having more cap money will promote better decision making ... i. e. choose not to use your already damaged franchise QB as a running back in a game that means nothing in a season that is lost ... I'mal ears.

I was goi
ng to post something similar, thanks for beating me to it.


I don't know. I don't really see what years 1 & 2 have to do with it at this point. There is no doubt that Shanahan made some mistakes those years, most notably completely underestimating the rebuilding job he was faced with. This whole thing about "will the cap space keep him from making bad decisions in the future" is just snarky and irrelevant. No coach is going to be right 100% of the time. Ask Pete Carroll how right he was to spend millions on Matt Flynn. We just need our coach to be right more often than he is wrong. And give Shanahan some credit, he's not afraid to change course and move on when he's made a mistake (see: McNabb, Donovan).

You either believe that Shanahan has established a solid foundation for the team and give him another year free of the cap penalty, or you think its time to move on. That's just a guess from any of us. I think our offense is really close, especially with a fully healthy RGIII next year. But I will admit its hard to imagine turning around that defense in one offseason.


You don't see the relevance of half his time here in charge? How can you simply overlook or ignore over half his body of work? That truly makes no sense. Now, if the Redkins were sitting at 9-3 right now, instead of 3-9 ... you might be in a position to claim that he has overcome those earlier mistakes ... but you have not a leg to stand on at 3-9, which could end up being the worst of the 4 seasons at the end.

The fact that errors in judgement can have residual long term effects apparently escapes some here, yet the unnecessary and poorly thought out decision to restructure the defense right out of the gate in year one, without the proper personnel to run a 34 did impair the progress of retooling the offense which was the greatest need when he arrived.

As for the Carrol reference .. obviously the thought going in was for Flynn to be the starter, and Wilson the project backup, BUT, need I point out that the error there was discovered in training camp, and not after a season was lost, unlike our 3 missfires and two lost seasons?

Slightly different, dontcha think?

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Re: Collinsworth blames cap for Redskins' woes

Postby StorminMormon86 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:36 pm

Kilmer72 wrote:People can say what they want about Kyle but his offense works. He does call some boneheaded plays but he also has put out an offense that works out there. He seems to have the Giants number. They can't really stop us, it is usually us that gets us unhinged. Even when Rex was out there receivers run wrong routes and QB makes a bad throw. I hear from ESPN radio from Cooley talking about what is in house is a totally different story from what we think on the outside. For example, people wonder why Rex is even on the team. Cooley says they know who Rex is, and many of those interceptions are a product of people running bad routes and people tipping balls and so forth. He says you need Rex on your team. (I think he is insinuating that talent is a problem) Makes me wonder just how bad Robert is really struggling.

I personally get ticked off at the strategy on offense at times. I also see that our receivers are wide open and something else screws it up. I also see dropped balls when they can make some kind of acrobatic catch and then drop one right in the bread basket.

It's not Kyle. I think it is a head coach that just doesn't jump in there enough to help out in the coaching woes. They are position coaches for a reason.

I don't think Kyle is the problem either. I think it's squarely on Mike's shoulders, honestly. I just don't think he'll have the brass to fire his own son, so he'll resign.

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Re: Collinsworth blames cap for Redskins' woes

Postby riggofan » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:44 pm

RayNAustin wrote:You don't see the relevance of half his time here in charge? How can you simply overlook or ignore over half his body of work? That truly makes no sense. Now, if the Redkins were sitting at 9-3 right now, instead of 3-9 ... you might be in a position to claim that he has overcome those earlier mistakes ... but you have not a leg to stand on at 3-9, which could end up being the worst of the 4 seasons at the end.


1) Ok, so by your logic I also have to factor in his entire body of coaching work including 7 seasons making the playoffs and 2 super bowls with the Broncos. Come on now, man. You just told me I can't ignore or overlook half his body of work.

2) We won the NFC East and made the playoffs last year. So did he overcome his earlier mistakes last year, but not this year? How does that work exactly?

RayNAustin wrote:The fact that errors in judgement can have residual long term effects apparently escapes some here, yet the unnecessary and poorly thought out decision to restructure the defense right out of the gate in year one, without the proper personnel to run a 34 did impair the progress of retooling the offense which was the greatest need when he arrived.


It doesn't "escape me" and I don't disagree with what you're saying. It still doesn't change where we are today with regards to bringing back Shanahan. You either look at the team and think he has put together something he can be successful with next year or you don't. What is the point of saying, well I like the way he has drafted, and I think RGIII was a good decision, but I'm still really pissed about that one season we had with Rex and John Beck?

RayNAustin wrote:As for the Carrol reference .. obviously the thought going in was for Flynn to be the starter, and Wilson the project backup, BUT, need I point out that the error there was discovered in training camp, and not after a season was lost, unlike our 3 missfires and two lost seasons?

Slightly different, dontcha think?


Flynn was brought in before Wilson was drafted, so no. And I don't consider Rex/Becks a misfire at all. I don't think there was a really good QB option that year. So, yeah I think Flynn was just as much a misfire as McNabb. Carroll just lucked out that he had Wilson on the roster already.

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Re: Collinsworth blames cap for Redskins' woes

Postby Irn-Bru » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:27 pm

riggofan wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:As for the Carrol reference .. obviously the thought going in was for Flynn to be the starter, and Wilson the project backup, BUT, need I point out that the error there was discovered in training camp, and not after a season was lost, unlike our 3 missfires and two lost seasons?

Slightly different, dontcha think?


Flynn was brought in before Wilson was drafted, so no. And I don't consider Rex/Becks a misfire at all. I don't think there was a really good QB option that year. So, yeah I think Flynn was just as much a misfire as McNabb. Carroll just lucked out that he had Wilson on the roster already.

Definitely. The Seahawks have shown great insight and skill in drafting the past few years, but they have also benefitted from some very lucky bounces, too, Wilson being the most prominent.
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Re: Collinsworth blames cap for Redskins' woes

Postby riggofan » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:12 pm

StorminMormon86 wrote:
riggofan wrote:Here's what Don Banks/SI wrote about it on Tuesday:

Sources close to the situation in D.C. say they don't think Redskins owner Daniel Snyder has made up his mind yet on whether he wants to bring Shanahan back in 2014, and things could still go either way. But the key sub-plot to watch may be offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan, the coach's son. I'm told that if the Redskins decide they want to part ways with Mike Shanahan with one year at $7 million left on his contract, they'll likely ask him to fire Kyle as OC, knowing he won't do it, but hoping he'll walk away from the fifth and final season of the deal.

That seems optimistic and way too easy of a conclusion, and I'm not sure why Mike Shanahan wouldn't call their bluff, make them fire him and collect his money.


Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/ne ... z2mXo5aP4b

This is precisely what I think (and kind of hope) will happen. I think he'll be pressured into firing Kyle, won't do it, and then resign from the position.


It might happen, but he won't resign. Why willingly give up $7m? Snyder will have to fire him or keep him.

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Re: Collinsworth blames cap for Redskins' woes

Postby RayNAustin » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:45 pm

riggofan wrote:
1) Ok, so by your logic I also have to factor in his entire body of coaching work including 7 seasons making the playoffs and 2 super bowls with the Broncos. Come on now, man. You just told me I can't ignore or overlook half his body of work.


I could not care less what Shanahan did with another team, especially when it was during the Ronald Reagan administration. Totally irrelevant. But to set the record straight, the most relevant time frame ... the last 8 years ... 4 at denver and 4 here, he,s got 1 trip to the playoffs, and about 15 games UNDER 500. In that one playoff game, he made the brilliant decision to risk the career of the guy he traded the farm for, by continuing to play him when it was OBVIOUS he was injured.

riggofan wrote:2) We won the NFC East and made the playoffs last year. So did he overcome his earlier mistakes last year, but not this year? How does that work exactly?


I'll tell you how it worked ... years 1 & 2 saw a dysfunctional offense and the QB three-step. They traded the farm for an athletic stud, and hitched the Budweiset wagon to him as if he were a clydsdale instead of a quarter horse. And he did pretty dang good, but that wagon wore him down, and he came up lame.

Now, we see the same offense that can't get out of it's on way, just like years 1 & w, only this is now the FOURTH QB IN FOUR YEARS.

So, what do we really know .... we know this year's team is ever bit as bad, and maybe worse than the teams in years 1 & 2. And we really don't know at this point what we have in RG3. Can he be top QB without having to sacrifice his body to be successful? Because, unless this kid can become a top 5 QB and do it over the next 10 + years, he could turn out to be the biggest blunder of all our many choices!!! Especially if 4th rounders like Wilson out perform him.

Make no mistake .... this story has yet to be told ... and one exciting rookie season does not a career make. And for what we gave up to get him, anything less than a decade or morw of star level play, will make this ANOTHER Shanahan "miscalculation" and a devastating one.

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Re: Collinsworth blames cap for Redskins' woes

Postby riggofan » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:51 pm

I don't know. Seems like a lot of gross exaggerations and distortions about the state of the offense and RGIII. Offense that can't get out of its way? We're the seventh ranked offense in the NFL and first in rushing.

Anyhoo.

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Re: Collinsworth blames cap for Redskins' woes

Postby riggofan » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:51 pm

RayNAustin wrote:Make no mistake .... this story has yet to be told ...


I completely agree with you on that. :)

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Re: Collinsworth blames cap for Redskins' woes

Postby SkinsJock » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:01 pm

riggofan wrote:I don't know. Seems like a lot of gross exaggerations and distortions about the state of the offense and RGIII. Offense that can't get out of its way? We're the seventh ranked offense in the NFL and first in rushing.

Anyhoo.

some here feel a need to make incredibly outlandish statements that have little credence to them …

wait a minute … this is Washington DC after all :twisted:
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