This is a pretty amazing article about the name Redskins

Talk about the Washington Redskins here. Do you bleed burgundy and gold?
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Re: This is a pretty amazing article about the name Redskins

Postby The Hogster » Mon May 26, 2014 9:12 pm

This name thing is the Dumbest debate ever. Hail to the Redskins
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Re: This is a pretty amazing article about the name Redskins

Postby riggofan » Tue May 27, 2014 10:42 am

Cappster wrote:I am most likely in the minority here, but I don't care what our Washington area football team is named. It can be the Redskins or whatever else and I don't really care. .


I'm with you, man. Call them the Washington Football Team for all I care.
Last edited by riggofan on Tue May 27, 2014 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: This is a pretty amazing article about the name Redskins

Postby riggofan » Tue May 27, 2014 10:58 am

SkinsJock wrote:How on earth can anyone think that saying "hello Redskin!" to a Native American is a form of 'greeting' - that's a stupid suggestion


Look, man. I don't care if you think its a stupid suggestion or not. Snyder and Allen have stated repeatedly that the name "Redskins" is an "honor" to Native Americans. I'm willing to buy that argument if they're willing to stand up in front of an audience of Native Americans and say, "HELLO, REDSKINS!"

So what if its not a traditional greeting? What the F does that have to do with anything? If Snyder walked up to a cowboy, I'm sure he could say, "Hello, Cowboy" even though its not a traditional greeting. People don't usually walk up to me and say, "Hello, Patriot". But if they did, I wouldn't be offended by it. Yeah, I'm a patriot. Yeah, I would be honored by that. "What's up, Panther?" Well that's kind of weird, but ok.

By all accounts, every "redskin" in that room should feel honored to be greeted "Hello, Redskin!" He should be able to walk up to any Navajo, give him dap and say, "What up, Redskin?"

"Asked at a pre-Super Bowl news conference whether he would call Native Americans “Redskins” to their faces, NFL commissioner Roger Goodell refused to answer and reiterated the league’s position that the team “has presented the name in a way that…has honored Native Americans.”"

I wonder why Goodell refused to answer the question. Its kind of obvious, isn't it?
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Re: This is a pretty amazing article about the name Redskins

Postby Irn-Bru » Tue May 27, 2014 2:15 pm

riggofan wrote:Snyder and Allen have stated repeatedly that the name "Redskins" is an "honor" to Native Americans. I'm willing to buy that argument if they're willing to stand up in front of an audience of Native Americans and say, "HELLO, REDSKINS!"

No, this doesn't follow at all. The Redskins name comes not from a general identifier of American Indians but of a particular sub-culture / historical concept, the warrior in body paint. It would be weird to address a room full of Indians with that single term. That just doesn't make sense.

Yes, it would also be offensive because that name also came to be used as a slur, but that is of course a separate issue. The team name can still be part of the tradition that venerates, respects, honors, etc., the concept and people even if there is also a tradition that uses it as an insult.

So what if its not a traditional greeting? What the F does that have to do with anything? If Snyder walked up to a cowboy, I'm sure he could say, "Hello, Cowboy" even though its not a traditional greeting. People don't usually walk up to me and say, "Hello, Patriot". But if they did, I wouldn't be offended by it. Yeah, I'm a patriot. Yeah, I would be honored by that. "What's up, Panther?" Well that's kind of weird, but ok.


I'll grant you this: if Snyder and Allen were addressing a room full of people closely associated with the team: players, fans, staff, etc., then they should totally be comfortable with saying "Hello, Redskins!" — even if every member in the room is an American Indian. I would be comfortable saying that.


By all accounts, every "redskin" in that room should feel honored to be greeted "Hello, Redskin!" He should be able to walk up to any Navajo, give him dap and say, "What up, Redskin?"

"Asked at a pre-Super Bowl news conference whether he would call Native Americans “Redskins” to their faces, NFL commissioner Roger Goodell refused to answer and reiterated the league’s position that the team “has presented the name in a way that…has honored Native Americans.”"

I wonder why Goodell refused to answer the question. Its kind of obvious, isn't it?


Yes, the reason is obvious: it's a loaded question. It's slippery of him to do it, but then again it's not a fair question, either, because it's not clear how what he might call someone to their face is relevant for whether a team name is appropriate.

Ask a bad question, get an evasive answer.
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Re: This is a pretty amazing article about the name Redskins

Postby emoses14 » Tue May 27, 2014 3:34 pm

riggofan wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:How on earth can anyone think that saying "hello Redskin!" to a Native American is a form of 'greeting' - that's a stupid suggestion


Look, man. I don't care if you think its a stupid suggestion or not. Snyder and Allen have stated repeatedly that the name "Redskins" is an "honor" to Native Americans. I'm willing to buy that argument if they're willing to stand up in front of an audience of Native Americans and say, "HELLO, REDSKINS!"

So what if its not a traditional greeting? What the F does that have to do with anything? If Snyder walked up to a cowboy, I'm sure he could say, "Hello, Cowboy" even though its not a traditional greeting. People don't usually walk up to me and say, "Hello, Patriot". But if they did, I wouldn't be offended by it. Yeah, I'm a patriot. Yeah, I would be honored by that. "What's up, Panther?" Well that's kind of weird, but ok.

By all accounts, every "redskin" in that room should feel honored to be greeted "Hello, Redskin!" He should be able to walk up to any Navajo, give him dap and say, "What up, Redskin?"

"Asked at a pre-Super Bowl news conference whether he would call Native Americans “Redskins” to their faces, NFL commissioner Roger Goodell refused to answer and reiterated the league’s position that the team “has presented the name in a way that…has honored Native Americans.”"

I wonder why Goodell refused to answer the question. Its kind of obvious, isn't it?


I actually don't think it is obvious at all. The answer to why I (not speaking for anyone else) would not greet a Native American with "What's up, Redskin?" is the same reason I'd not greet someone by saying "What's up, Dolphin/Spur/Dodger/[insert any other team mascot name]" It doesn't make any sense to use a word out of context like that. The dominant, damn near only, use of the word "Redskin" at this point is a reference to the team in Washington, D.C. I'm not going to offer up the anecdotal evidence that I've never heard Redskin used to refer to a person because it isn't helpful or persuasive. However, if you aggregate a general populous' understanding of what the word identifies and they all point to a football team, well there's your answer.

Honoring a group of people with the name of a Franchise isn't undone by the fact that you'd not necessarily use it to actually address them. I suspect that if Dan Snyder walked up to a cowboy, he'd be just as likely to say "Hey, Cowboy" as to address them as sir, or by their name. Because that usage of the word makes sense, it is both an abstract representation of something (the Cowboys and one who performs the job of a cowboy).
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Re: This is a pretty amazing article about the name Redskins

Postby riggofan » Tue May 27, 2014 3:51 pm

emoses14 wrote:I actually don't think it is obvious at all. The answer to why I (not speaking for anyone else) would not greet a Native American with "What's up, Redskin?" is the same reason I'd not greet someone by saying "What's up, Dolphin/Spur/Dodger/[insert any other team mascot name]"


Come on, man. You're just dancing around and not addressing the issue. I understand that you wouldn't normally in every day conversation say, "Hello, Dophin." That has nothing to do with anything, and you know exactly what the question put to Goodell meant. Would you prove that Redskin is not an offensive term, but walking up to a Native American and using it to their face?

Of course he wouldn't. Because it would be offensive.

Anyway, let the dancing continue. I'll support the team no matter what they are named, but I just have a feeling this is one argument that's not going to hold up forever.
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Re: This is a pretty amazing article about the name Redskins

Postby riggofan » Tue May 27, 2014 4:01 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:Yes, the reason is obvious: it's a loaded question. It's slippery of him to do it, but then again it's not a fair question, either, because it's not clear how what he might call someone to their face is relevant for whether a team name is appropriate.


Yeah I agree that its a loaded question, but I'm not sure why you don't think its relevant exactly?

The team has said that word is used to honor Native Americans. Why wouldn't you be able to call a person the word you're honoring them with? That just seems crazy. Can you name another team name in the NFL that you would be reluctant to call a group of people to their face? Steelers, Cowboys, Raiders, Buccaneers, 49ers, Patriots, Packers, etc; I just can't think of anything comparable.

I know people will get ticked off at me for writing about this, but honestly I'm not trying to be combative. My point is that however good our intentions are as a team, and no matter how phony most of the PC-crowd is, I still don't believe the name is completely defensible.
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Re: This is a pretty amazing article about the name Redskins

Postby emoses14 » Tue May 27, 2014 4:48 pm

riggofan wrote:
emoses14 wrote:I actually don't think it is obvious at all. The answer to why I (not speaking for anyone else) would not greet a Native American with "What's up, Redskin?" is the same reason I'd not greet someone by saying "What's up, Dolphin/Spur/Dodger/[insert any other team mascot name]"


Come on, man. You're just dancing around and not addressing the issue. I understand that you wouldn't normally in every day conversation say, "Hello, Dophin." That has nothing to do with anything, and you know exactly what the question put to Goodell meant. Would you prove that Redskin is not an offensive term, but walking up to a Native American and using it to their face?

Of course he wouldn't. Because it would be offensive.

Anyway, let the dancing continue. I'll support the team no matter what they are named, but I just have a feeling this is one argument that's not going to hold up forever.


I think your point is that the situation is settled by the answer to your box-in question of "Would you say Redskin to Native American's face?" The problem, again, is that all words have meaning and usages, and the two don't always line up. This is the perfect example of that. I'm not addressing your issue, true because it already assumes away the argument (that's why Goodell refused to answer the question, it was a set up).

So in fact, your example of not being offended if someone came up and called you a Patriot is no less ridiculous than mine of going up to someone and calling them a Dolphin. I certainly wouldn't walk up to a person and call them anything but their name or "sir/ma'am". But that isn't the point. The point is some words only make sense in context, like, uhm, Redskin. If you're not a self identified fan of the 'Skins, having a football conversation, talking to/addressing an employee of the team, there's no reason to be using the word Redskin. It literally doesn't have any use without that context. Its fine to ignore the actual usage of the word Redskin to make your (royal you, not you in particular, riggofan) point, but just own up to that.
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Re: This is a pretty amazing article about the name Redskins

Postby chiefhog44 » Tue May 27, 2014 8:51 pm

How is the word redskin equivalent to using other racial slurs? What a joke. I'm not the kind of guy that uses those words to refer to a certain group of people so maybe I'm not on the "in", but I have NEVER come close to hearing redskin used to describe a Native American.

If someone came to the podium and said hello whiteskins to a group of white dudes, or hello blackskins to a bunch of black dudes, I would fall off my chair laughing. It's not a slur, it's just not the context to greet people. Whiteskin, brownskin, blackskin, tanskin, redskin, are not ways that are thought of as traditional ways to greet someone on the street. None of them are slurs, but not a way to say hello. It's just odd that's all. Hello cowboy is used pretty frequently to greet someone so it does not sound odd.

And because the Native American tribes refer to themselves as the Red nation, or Red people (I was just out at Crazy Horse last September and listened to a Lakota Indian speak and they are VERY proud of it...mentioned it several times), I see nothing wrong with this name. I think Bruce Allen is correct in offering help to these people and the fact that any government official has anything to do with this discussion is disgusting.
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Re: This is a pretty amazing article about the name Redskins

Postby Gibbs4Life » Tue May 27, 2014 11:09 pm

This all stems from the Mara's and the intense beef we have with New York. They saw Shanahan coming to build a contender, they convinced Goodell to cut our legs off with a cap penalty, they tried unsuccessfully to keep us from attaining RG3; and now they are unleashing the bevy of New York based national organizations to paint our team name as racist. The fact is our team name honors Native Americans ITS THE NAME OF THE DA*N team
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Re: This is a pretty amazing article about the name Redskins

Postby riggofan » Wed May 28, 2014 8:19 am

Gibbs4Life wrote:This all stems from the Mara's and the intense beef we have with New York. They saw Shanahan coming to build a contender, they convinced Goodell to cut our legs off with a cap penalty, they tried unsuccessfully to keep us from attaining RG3; and now they are unleashing the bevy of New York based national organizations to paint our team name as racist. The fact is our team name honors Native Americans ITS THE NAME OF THE DA*N team


And yet, you would never call a group of Native Americans, Redskins. Quite an honor.
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Re: This is a pretty amazing article about the name Redskins

Postby SkinsJock » Wed May 28, 2014 8:29 am

The real point is that the term Redskins is not mean't to honor or denigrate anyone - it's just a name for a sports franchise

If anyone wants to take offense at a name that is not intended to offend then they're just obviously looking to be ornery and offensive

Snyder and Allen are not totally correct in saying that the term is mean't to 'honor' - it's just a name of the sports franchise in Washington DC that we all happen to love


Politicians of today have a lot of work to do and they really should stay away from issues like this
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Re: This is a pretty amazing article about the name Redskins

Postby langleyparkjoe » Wed May 28, 2014 8:38 am

I didn't read the pretty amazing article because I personally think the name will get changed eventually... but....

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Re: This is a pretty amazing article about the name Redskins

Postby Irn-Bru » Wed May 28, 2014 11:23 am

riggofan wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:Yes, the reason is obvious: it's a loaded question. It's slippery of him to do it, but then again it's not a fair question, either, because it's not clear how what he might call someone to their face is relevant for whether a team name is appropriate.


Yeah I agree that its a loaded question, but I'm not sure why you don't think its relevant exactly?


It's not relevant because these two things:
(a) what you should or should not call any particular Native American
(b) what the team is named after

Are two different things. Saying that a name is offensive because of (a) is not the same thing as showing that it's offensive with respect to (b)

The team has said that word is used to honor Native Americans. Why wouldn't you be able to call a person the word you're honoring them with? That just seems crazy.

Let me use an analogy to illustrate my point. Suppose there was a team named the Airmen. And 100 years from now, someone asked why the "Airmen" have a black man on their helmets.

You'd say, "In WWII there was a squadron called the Tuskegee Airmen, and this team was named in honor of their courage, what they stood for, etc. It's a way of tapping into and continuing to venerate the noble tradition, and it honors black Americans."

"But how can you say it honors blacks? I mean, you'd never start a speech delivered at an auditorium with, 'Hello Airmen!' That would just be weird, if not offensive!"


Can you name another team name in the NFL that you would be reluctant to call a group of people to their face? Steelers, Cowboys, Raiders, Buccaneers, 49ers, Patriots, Packers, etc; I just can't think of anything comparable.

As I said above, I would not be reluctant to call a gathering of Redskins fans, players, or staff, etc., Redskins.
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Re: This is a pretty amazing article about the name Redskins

Postby yupchagee » Wed May 28, 2014 11:29 am

riggofan wrote:
Cappster wrote:I am most likely in the minority here, but I don't care what our Washington area football team is named. It can be the Redskins or whatever else and I don't really care. .


I'm with you, man. Call them the Washington Football Team for all I care.


If we ARE forced to change the name, I nominate HOGS!
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