If not Chad than maybe Roy Williams (WR) ?

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Postby CanesSkins26 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:03 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
Jeremy81 wrote:
Countertrey wrote:Why do so many think that ANYONE would want Lloyd in a trade?????? What are you people thinking? Does Detroit owe us something? :roll:


because we did...and it's detroit. why wouldn't they if a 2nd round pick is included? :roll: :roll:


Why would Detroit trade Roy Williams for anything other than a 1st round pick? He is very young and already one of the best receivers in the NFL. As for Lloyd, he has ZERO trade value.


Maybe, because Randy Moss was traded for a fourth round pick. NO ONE gives ups 1st round picks for players any more, except maybe us, because we don't value our draft picks!


Teams also don't usually trade 26 year old stud receivers. If the Bengals are looking for multiple picks for Chad Johnson, what do you think the Lions are going to want for a player that is 4 years younger?
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Postby absinthe1023 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:29 am

CanesSkins26 wrote:
absinthe1023 wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
Hackett would be relatively-cheap to sign.


I wouldn't be so sure. The free agent class is very weak at WR this year so there may be a team that is willing to overpay to get him. Either way, he's not going to be so cheap that you can just stash him on your roster and hope that he pans out. Considering McCardell is likely gone and there is no way that Lloyd is back, we need a starting caliber receiver. We can't fill that position with an injury risk such as Hackett. Also, I highly doubt that we would be able to sign another starter and also sign Hackett.


Hackett would be a bargain to sign compared to trading for Chad Johnson or Roy Williams, and would also likely be cheaper than signing Limas Sweed (who would also cost the 'Skins a first round draft pick).
Can you name another free agent WR with Hackett's upside who would be available for less?


Bryant Johnson from the Cardinals is an UFA and he doesn't have the injury history of Hackett.

I would take Sweed over Hackett every single time. Sweed is bigger, younger, and healthier than Hackett. Hackett has missed over 30 games in his NFL career thus far. Relying on someone like that is stupid when you are need of starting caliber receiver.


Bryant Johnson, a former first round pick, would most likely be more expensive to sign than Hackett, and is nowhere near as productive. He played in 16 games this year compared to Hackett's 6, but his production was not significantly different than Hackett's.

Also, keep in mind that Hackett has been effective as a number one option in Seattle, while Johnson has struggled in AZ even as a third receiver. What kind of production can you expect from him on this team when he can't even produce when Boldin and Fitzgerald are drawing most of the defense's attention? Being on the West Coast, I've watched a number of Cards games and Seahawks games the past few years, and I've never seen Johnson dominate a game the way Hackett can when he's healthy.

I agree with you that Sweed is an overall better prospect than Hackett, but you need to consider a few things:

1. He's a rookie, and the vast majority of rookie WRs don't come into their own until their third NFL season. Also, the percentage of first round busts is highest at the WR position.

2. He will be expensive to sign.

3. Most important: he will cost a first round draft pick. Would you rather have Hackett AND Calais Campbell (or another stud DE) or Limas Sweed alone?
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Postby CanesSkins26 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:04 am

3. Most important: he will cost a first round draft pick. Would you rather have Hackett AND Calais Campbell (or another stud DE) or Limas Sweed alone?


Obviously I'd rather take a healthy Hackett and Campbell, but how many games can we reasonably expect out of Hackett. In 4 years he has missed one entire season and almost 2/3's of another one. So in signing Hackett, you are basically hoping that he somehow gets over his injury problems and that isn't very likely for a guy that has already injured his hip, knee, and ankles. I can't think of a single example of a player who has missed as many games as Hackett to start his career that has turned things around and managed to stay healthy. With a depth chart like ours, we simply don't have the luxury of taking a chance on Hackett being healthy.
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Postby absinthe1023 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:35 am

CanesSkins26 wrote:
3. Most important: he will cost a first round draft pick. Would you rather have Hackett AND Calais Campbell (or another stud DE) or Limas Sweed alone?


Obviously I'd rather take a healthy Hackett and Campbell, but how many games can we reasonably expect out of Hackett. In 4 years he has missed one entire season and almost 2/3's of another one. So in signing Hackett, you are basically hoping that he somehow gets over his injury problems and that isn't very likely for a guy that has already injured his hip, knee, and ankles. I can't think of a single example of a player who has missed as many games as Hackett to start his career that has turned things around and managed to stay healthy. With a depth chart like ours, we simply don't have the luxury of taking a chance on Hackett being healthy.


Like I said a couple of posts ago, Fred Taylor is a great example. The one thing you could count on during Taylor's first several seasons was a season-ending groin injury, but he's overcome that in recent years and has managed to remain essentially healthy. He's now a 10 year vet and a Pro Bowler.

If Taylor can do this from the RB position while getting hit 20-30 times per game, it stands to reason that Hackett, as a WR, has a good chance of breaking out of this pattern and remaining healthy. It would be great to see him do that in a maroon-and-bla....excuse me, burgundy-and-gold uniform....
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Postby CanesSkins26 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:44 am

absinthe1023 wrote:
CanesSkins26 wrote:
3. Most important: he will cost a first round draft pick. Would you rather have Hackett AND Calais Campbell (or another stud DE) or Limas Sweed alone?


Obviously I'd rather take a healthy Hackett and Campbell, but how many games can we reasonably expect out of Hackett. In 4 years he has missed one entire season and almost 2/3's of another one. So in signing Hackett, you are basically hoping that he somehow gets over his injury problems and that isn't very likely for a guy that has already injured his hip, knee, and ankles. I can't think of a single example of a player who has missed as many games as Hackett to start his career that has turned things around and managed to stay healthy. With a depth chart like ours, we simply don't have the luxury of taking a chance on Hackett being healthy.


Like I said a couple of posts ago, Fred Taylor is a great example. The one thing you could count on during Taylor's first several seasons was a season-ending groin injury, but he's overcome that in recent years and has managed to remain essentially healthy. He's now a 10 year vet and a Pro Bowler.

If Taylor can do this from the RB position while getting hit 20-30 times per game, it stands to reason that Hackett, as a WR, has a good chance of breaking out of this pattern and remaining healthy. It would be great to see him do that in a maroon-and-bla....excuse me, burgundy-and-gold uniform....


Fred Taylor is a decent example, but Hackett has missed roughly the same number of games in 4 seasons as Taylor has during his 10 year career.
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:11 pm

Some people that have posted on this subject seam to think that signing 1st round picks are more expensive then FA. They couln't be further form the truth.

Reggie Nelson was the 21st pick in last years draft. Here is his contract info:
"Durant signed a four-year deal that included $1.72 million in guaranteed money Friday morning, and Nelson agreed to terms on a five-year deal later that night. Nelson's total package, including escalators if he meets certain goals, is in the $13.1 million range, with $7.1 million guaranteed. "
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072807/jag_187488560.shtml

Unless drafted in the first few picks.

Calvin Johnson who was picked #2 overall was signed a pretty hefty deal:
"Signed a six-year, $55.5 million contract. The deal contains $27.178 million in guarantees, including an initial roster bonus of $2.502 million and his base salaries in years four and five. Another $8.5 million is available through incentives. 2008: $3,483,438, 2009: $4,180,125, 2010: $4,876,813, 2011: $5,573,500, 2012: $6,270,188, 2013: Free Agent
"
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=Nfl&id=4153

But that is still less than the $66M 6 year deal Marvin Harrison signed in 2004.

Rookies are almost always cheaper than FAs. The only advantages you get w/a FA is they don't cost you a draft pick and should have a good idea if they can play at an NFL level. Unless you pick guys like Lloyd and AA and extremely overpay for underperformers. I don't count ARE as a bust, because he has been a very good #3 WR and a pretty good #2 - still don't like him trying to house every punt return when he should just get the ten yards he can get.
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Postby TincoSkin » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:29 pm

i think it misplaced energy to be talking about a star wide out when what we really need is a revamped O line. a good qb can hit any wide out as long as he has great protection. O line is of upmost importance. if we can solidify it and get a top shelf wide out then im all for it but to spend the cash for a guy like roy or ochocinco without first addressing the O line is retarded
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Postby Mursilis » Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:30 pm

absinthe1023 wrote:Also, the percentage of first round busts is highest at the WR position.


No, I believe that "honor" belongs to the QB position. ESPN magazine did a study a few months back, and found the most busts at QB, if I remember correctly.

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Postby skinsfan#33 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:50 pm

Mursilis wrote:
absinthe1023 wrote:Also, the percentage of first round busts is highest at the WR position.


No, I believe that "honor" belongs to the QB position. ESPN magazine did a study a few months back, and found the most busts at QB, if I remember correctly.


Yes, you're correct. I believe WR was #3 on the bust depth chart. But when you hit on a QB you have a big time difference maker! Not so much at WR. Heck of all the positions on offense I would put WR near the bottom. If you have a great QB, you will win a lot. If you have a greta OL you will win a lot. If you have a great DL you will win your fair share. But having a great WR doesn't translate into that many wins.

Look at NE. They had their best WR corps, by far this year, and while the won 18 in a row, they also lost their first SB under Brady. I blame that on their offensive coordinator and OL. Nineteen year old McDaniels, refused to go to max pro and the OL couldn't handle the Giants' pass rush.

Your risk/reward just isn't there for WRs.

We need to forget about a big time WR. Sure if one falls into our lap then great, but this team desperately needs a starting LG that can also play center. A legit backup LT is needed too. If we go into training camp without adding a pass rushind DL and a starting caliber CB our D will suffer.

Here is how I rank our positions of need:
OG
CB
DL (pass rusher)
OLB
Backup LT
WR
backup or starting SS/FS
Kicker
Punter

Absolutely no trades should be considered (unless it is down in the draft to get more picks!). We need all of our draft picks for depth and cheap labor. Snyder is great at kicking the salery cap can down the road, but some cheap help would be nice.
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Postby absinthe1023 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:44 pm

Mursilis wrote:
absinthe1023 wrote:Also, the percentage of first round busts is highest at the WR position.


No, I believe that "honor" belongs to the QB position. ESPN magazine did a study a few months back, and found the most busts at QB, if I remember correctly.


That's the study I was thinking of...I guess I "misremembered" like Andy Pettite :wink:
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Postby absinthe1023 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:47 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:Some people that have posted on this subject seam to think that signing 1st round picks are more expensive then FA. They couln't be further form the truth.

Reggie Nelson was the 21st pick in last years draft. Here is his contract info:
"Durant signed a four-year deal that included $1.72 million in guaranteed money Friday morning, and Nelson agreed to terms on a five-year deal later that night. Nelson's total package, including escalators if he meets certain goals, is in the $13.1 million range, with $7.1 million guaranteed. "
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072807/jag_187488560.shtml

Unless drafted in the first few picks.

Calvin Johnson who was picked #2 overall was signed a pretty hefty deal:
"Signed a six-year, $55.5 million contract. The deal contains $27.178 million in guarantees, including an initial roster bonus of $2.502 million and his base salaries in years four and five. Another $8.5 million is available through incentives. 2008: $3,483,438, 2009: $4,180,125, 2010: $4,876,813, 2011: $5,573,500, 2012: $6,270,188, 2013: Free Agent
"
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=Nfl&id=4153

But that is still less than the $66M 6 year deal Marvin Harrison signed in 2004.

Rookies are almost always cheaper than FAs. The only advantages you get w/a FA is they don't cost you a draft pick and should have a good idea if they can play at an NFL level. Unless you pick guys like Lloyd and AA and extremely overpay for underperformers. I don't count ARE as a bust, because he has been a very good #3 WR and a pretty good #2 - still don't like him trying to house every punt return when he should just get the ten yards he can get.


You've given an extreme example by listing Marvin Harrison as an example. Of course his contract is huge, he's one of the very best in the game.
I'm curious as to who you think would be the more costly acquisition:
DJ Hackett (FA contract only) or Limas Sweed (rookie contract and first round pick). I'm not interested in arguing the merits of either acquisition, just curious which option you think would be the most expensive overall....
"No one played with more heart."

-Clinton Portis on Sean Taylor


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Postby VetSkinsFan » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:49 am

absinthe1023 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:Some people that have posted on this subject seam to think that signing 1st round picks are more expensive then FA. They couln't be further form the truth.

Reggie Nelson was the 21st pick in last years draft. Here is his contract info:
"Durant signed a four-year deal that included $1.72 million in guaranteed money Friday morning, and Nelson agreed to terms on a five-year deal later that night. Nelson's total package, including escalators if he meets certain goals, is in the $13.1 million range, with $7.1 million guaranteed. "
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072807/jag_187488560.shtml

Unless drafted in the first few picks.

Calvin Johnson who was picked #2 overall was signed a pretty hefty deal:
"Signed a six-year, $55.5 million contract. The deal contains $27.178 million in guarantees, including an initial roster bonus of $2.502 million and his base salaries in years four and five. Another $8.5 million is available through incentives. 2008: $3,483,438, 2009: $4,180,125, 2010: $4,876,813, 2011: $5,573,500, 2012: $6,270,188, 2013: Free Agent
"
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=Nfl&id=4153

But that is still less than the $66M 6 year deal Marvin Harrison signed in 2004.

Rookies are almost always cheaper than FAs. The only advantages you get w/a FA is they don't cost you a draft pick and should have a good idea if they can play at an NFL level. Unless you pick guys like Lloyd and AA and extremely overpay for underperformers. I don't count ARE as a bust, because he has been a very good #3 WR and a pretty good #2 - still don't like him trying to house every punt return when he should just get the ten yards he can get.


You've given an extreme example by listing Marvin Harrison as an example. Of course his contract is huge, he's one of the very best in the game.
I'm curious as to who you think would be the more costly acquisition:
DJ Hackett (FA contract only) or Limas Sweed (rookie contract and first round pick). I'm not interested in arguing the merits of either acquisition, just curious which option you think would be the most expensive overall....



You HAVE to take into account the individual skills/talents of each in order to do that. You have to take into account where exactly they'd fit into the scheme, so it's a lot more dynamic than what you ask Absinthe.

I cannot give an opinion of thee guys b/c I never keep up with college, so I can't say what I think of Sweed. If it came down to it, I'd take the rookie with all else equal simply because there's a chance of longevity there. You can mold him to your current O-coordinator's system. I reinterate that it's tough to take both guys out of context and then make an assessment.
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:51 pm

absinthe1023 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:Some people that have posted on this subject seam to think that signing 1st round picks are more expensive then FA. They couln't be further form the truth.

Reggie Nelson was the 21st pick in last years draft. Here is his contract info:
"Durant signed a four-year deal that included $1.72 million in guaranteed money Friday morning, and Nelson agreed to terms on a five-year deal later that night. Nelson's total package, including escalators if he meets certain goals, is in the $13.1 million range, with $7.1 million guaranteed. "
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072807/jag_187488560.shtml

Unless drafted in the first few picks.

Calvin Johnson who was picked #2 overall was signed a pretty hefty deal:
"Signed a six-year, $55.5 million contract. The deal contains $27.178 million in guarantees, including an initial roster bonus of $2.502 million and his base salaries in years four and five. Another $8.5 million is available through incentives. 2008: $3,483,438, 2009: $4,180,125, 2010: $4,876,813, 2011: $5,573,500, 2012: $6,270,188, 2013: Free Agent
"
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=Nfl&id=4153

But that is still less than the $66M 6 year deal Marvin Harrison signed in 2004.

Rookies are almost always cheaper than FAs. The only advantages you get w/a FA is they don't cost you a draft pick and should have a good idea if they can play at an NFL level. Unless you pick guys like Lloyd and AA and extremely overpay for underperformers. I don't count ARE as a bust, because he has been a very good #3 WR and a pretty good #2 - still don't like him trying to house every punt return when he should just get the ten yards he can get.


You've given an extreme example by listing Marvin Harrison as an example. Of course his contract is huge, he's one of the very best in the game.
I'm curious as to who you think would be the more costly acquisition:
DJ Hackett (FA contract only) or Limas Sweed (rookie contract and first round pick). I'm not interested in arguing the merits of either acquisition, just curious which option you think would be the most expensive overall....


If taken w/the 21st overall pick Sweed would be way more affordable than Hacket or any verteran WR. Look at how much cheap Nelson was.

By the way Harrison's contract is 4 years old now and a top veteran WR like OchoCinco or Fitzgerald would cost us even more than Harrison did the Colts.
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Postby absinthe1023 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:30 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
absinthe1023 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:Some people that have posted on this subject seam to think that signing 1st round picks are more expensive then FA. They couln't be further form the truth.

Reggie Nelson was the 21st pick in last years draft. Here is his contract info:
"Durant signed a four-year deal that included $1.72 million in guaranteed money Friday morning, and Nelson agreed to terms on a five-year deal later that night. Nelson's total package, including escalators if he meets certain goals, is in the $13.1 million range, with $7.1 million guaranteed. "
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072807/jag_187488560.shtml

Unless drafted in the first few picks.

Calvin Johnson who was picked #2 overall was signed a pretty hefty deal:
"Signed a six-year, $55.5 million contract. The deal contains $27.178 million in guarantees, including an initial roster bonus of $2.502 million and his base salaries in years four and five. Another $8.5 million is available through incentives. 2008: $3,483,438, 2009: $4,180,125, 2010: $4,876,813, 2011: $5,573,500, 2012: $6,270,188, 2013: Free Agent
"
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=Nfl&id=4153

But that is still less than the $66M 6 year deal Marvin Harrison signed in 2004.

Rookies are almost always cheaper than FAs. The only advantages you get w/a FA is they don't cost you a draft pick and should have a good idea if they can play at an NFL level. Unless you pick guys like Lloyd and AA and extremely overpay for underperformers. I don't count ARE as a bust, because he has been a very good #3 WR and a pretty good #2 - still don't like him trying to house every punt return when he should just get the ten yards he can get.


You've given an extreme example by listing Marvin Harrison as an example. Of course his contract is huge, he's one of the very best in the game.
I'm curious as to who you think would be the more costly acquisition:
DJ Hackett (FA contract only) or Limas Sweed (rookie contract and first round pick). I'm not interested in arguing the merits of either acquisition, just curious which option you think would be the most expensive overall....


If taken w/the 21st overall pick Sweed would be way more affordable than Hacket or any verteran WR. Look at how much cheap Nelson was.

By the way Harrison's contract is 4 years old now and a top veteran WR like OchoCinco or Fitzgerald would cost us even more than Harrison did the Colts.


Hackett made 1.3 million last year. Given the fact that he is a risky signing for any new team due to his well-documented injury history, I think he could be acquired for a much more reasonable contract than Nelson's deal mentioned above, particularly with respect to guaranteed money. It's very likely that he'll end up signing a deal laden with incentives for games played, number of snaps, etc.
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:49 am

absinthe1023 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
absinthe1023 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:Some people that have posted on this subject seam to think that signing 1st round picks are more expensive then FA. They couln't be further form the truth.

Reggie Nelson was the 21st pick in last years draft. Here is his contract info:
"Durant signed a four-year deal that included $1.72 million in guaranteed money Friday morning, and Nelson agreed to terms on a five-year deal later that night. Nelson's total package, including escalators if he meets certain goals, is in the $13.1 million range, with $7.1 million guaranteed. "
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072807/jag_187488560.shtml

Unless drafted in the first few picks.

Calvin Johnson who was picked #2 overall was signed a pretty hefty deal:
"Signed a six-year, $55.5 million contract. The deal contains $27.178 million in guarantees, including an initial roster bonus of $2.502 million and his base salaries in years four and five. Another $8.5 million is available through incentives. 2008: $3,483,438, 2009: $4,180,125, 2010: $4,876,813, 2011: $5,573,500, 2012: $6,270,188, 2013: Free Agent
"
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=Nfl&id=4153

But that is still less than the $66M 6 year deal Marvin Harrison signed in 2004.

Rookies are almost always cheaper than FAs. The only advantages you get w/a FA is they don't cost you a draft pick and should have a good idea if they can play at an NFL level. Unless you pick guys like Lloyd and AA and extremely overpay for underperformers. I don't count ARE as a bust, because he has been a very good #3 WR and a pretty good #2 - still don't like him trying to house every punt return when he should just get the ten yards he can get.


You've given an extreme example by listing Marvin Harrison as an example. Of course his contract is huge, he's one of the very best in the game.
I'm curious as to who you think would be the more costly acquisition:
DJ Hackett (FA contract only) or Limas Sweed (rookie contract and first round pick). I'm not interested in arguing the merits of either acquisition, just curious which option you think would be the most expensive overall....


If taken w/the 21st overall pick Sweed would be way more affordable than Hacket or any verteran WR. Look at how much cheap Nelson was.

By the way Harrison's contract is 4 years old now and a top veteran WR like OchoCinco or Fitzgerald would cost us even more than Harrison did the Colts.


Hackett made 1.3 million last year. Given the fact that he is a risky signing for any new team due to his well-documented injury history, I think he could be acquired for a much more reasonable contract than Nelson's deal mentioned above, particularly with respect to guaranteed money. It's very likely that he'll end up signing a deal laden with incentives for games played, number of snaps, etc.


Has this front office ever signed a FA for less than what Nelson's rookie contract is?
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