THNFF 2016

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DarthMonk
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THNFF 2016

Postby DarthMonk » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:15 am

I thought we already had a thread ???

Anyway, a few observations from Saints @ Carolina last night.

Ginn had a TD catch initially called incomplete. Review showed it to be a TD and the call was changed.

Late in the game I believe Greg Olsen made a virtually identical catch on the sidelines. It was ruled incomplete but Carolina did not challenge. Anyone else see this? Comments?

I had neither of these players but was interested. The Olsen play could have cost Carolina the game.

Luke Kuechly returned a blocked FG 89 yards for a TD. While jogging in ahead of a posse, a Carolina team mate needlessly pushed the kicker in the back with one hand. Dude went down, TD was negated, and the return was reduced (Kuechly started at his 11 and the ball ended up being spotted at the Saint 30).

I still haven't seen the return yardage posted and doubt LPJ could do anything if Yahoo! fails to.

Am I misinterpreting this? Should Kuechly not get return yardage?

I wrote to Yahoo!

In the Saints vs Panthers game on November 17, 2016, Luke Kuechly returned a blocked FG from the Carolina 12 to the New Orleans end zone (88 yards).

A flag at the New Orleans 20 brought the ball back to the New Orleans 30.

Details:

4th and 10 at CAR 20
(0:39 - 2nd) W.Lutz 38 yard field goal is BLOCKED (V.Butler), Center-J.Drescher, Holder-T.Morstead, RECOVERED by CAR-L.Kuechly at CAR 12. L.Kuechly for 88 yards, TOUCHDOWN NULLIFIED by Penalty. PENALTY on CAR-J.Bradberry, Illegal Block Above the Waist, 10 yards, enforced at NO 30

I have not yet seen return yards for Kuechly.

Shouldn't Kuechly get 68 return yards?

Thanks!
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Re: THNFF 2016

Postby DarthMonk » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:02 pm

DarthMonk wrote:I thought we already had a thread ???

Anyway, a few observations from Saints @ Carolina last night.

Ginn had a TD catch initially called incomplete. Review showed it to be a TD and the call was changed.

Late in the game I believe Greg Olsen made a virtually identical catch on the sidelines. It was ruled incomplete but Carolina did not challenge. Anyone else see this? Comments?

I had neither of these players but was interested. The Olsen play could have cost Carolina the game.

Luke Kuechly returned a blocked FG 89 yards for a TD. While jogging in ahead of a posse, a Carolina team mate needlessly pushed the kicker in the back with one hand. Dude went down, TD was negated, and the return was reduced (Kuechly started at his 11 and the ball ended up being spotted at the Saint 30).

I still haven't seen the return yardage posted and doubt LPJ could do anything if Yahoo! fails to.

Am I misinterpreting this? Should Kuechly not get return yardage?

I wrote to Yahoo!

In the Saints vs Panthers game on November 17, 2016, Luke Kuechly returned a blocked FG from the Carolina 12 to the New Orleans end zone (88 yards).

A flag at the New Orleans 20 brought the ball back to the New Orleans 30.

Details:

4th and 10 at CAR 20
(0:39 - 2nd) W.Lutz 38 yard field goal is BLOCKED (V.Butler), Center-J.Drescher, Holder-T.Morstead, RECOVERED by CAR-L.Kuechly at CAR 12. L.Kuechly for 88 yards, TOUCHDOWN NULLIFIED by Penalty. PENALTY on CAR-J.Bradberry, Illegal Block Above the Waist, 10 yards, enforced at NO 30

I have not yet seen return yards for Kuechly.

Shouldn't Kuechly get 68 return yards?

Thanks!


Yahoo! wrote back:

Thanks for spending the time to reach out to us.

I'm sorry for the the trouble this is causing. Unfortunately, the stat category, turnover return yards, only includes return yards from interceptions and fumble recoveries. Since this play wasn't considered an interception or fumble recovery, Kuechly will not get credit for the yardage.


So I guess I'd've gotten 6 had he scored but otherwise, nada.

Doesn't seem quite right.

LPJ - you may want to look into this in the future. I would personally look at it this way. No return yardage for the Denver guy last week on the blocked PAT since a PAT is not a play from scrimmage, i.e., not 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th down. Yes return yardage on blocked FG since it's a play from scrimmage.
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Re: THNFF 2016

Postby DarthMonk » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:54 pm

We traded emails one more time and after thanking me, they gave me this link for input:

I can see how this would be debatable, and I'm sorry that it is not included in turnover return yards. I have relayed this suggestion for you and have included our feedback forum in the link below. If you don't mind taking the time, you can add this as a suggestion on our forum. This will allow other users to vote this suggestion up, which will help push the change.

Suggest new features for Yahoo Sports

https://help.yahoo.com/kb/sln6580.html? ... ve7H79fas=


I'm going to recommend a sliding scale option for FG scoring - something along these lines:

Makes~
20 yard FG = 3 points. Every extra yard worth .5 point. Examples: 40 yards = 4 points. 50 yards = 4.5 points.

Misses~
20 yard miss = -3. Every extra yard on miss reduces penalty by .1 point. Examples: 40 yard miss = -1. 50 yard miss = no penalty.

Scales could be set by commish.
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Re: THNFF 2016

Postby Deadskins » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:52 am

DarthMonk wrote:We traded emails one more time and after thanking me, they gave me this link for input:

I can see how this would be debatable, and I'm sorry that it is not included in turnover return yards. I have relayed this suggestion for you and have included our feedback forum in the link below. If you don't mind taking the time, you can add this as a suggestion on our forum. This will allow other users to vote this suggestion up, which will help push the change.

Suggest new features for Yahoo Sports

https://help.yahoo.com/kb/sln6580.html? ... ve7H79fas=


I'm going to recommend a sliding scale option for FG scoring - something along these lines:

Makes~
20 yard FG = 3 points. Every extra yard worth .5 point. Examples: 40 yards = 4 points. 50 yards = 4.5 points.

Misses~
20 yard miss = -3. Every extra yard on miss reduces penalty by .1 point. Examples: 40 yard miss = -1. 50 yard miss = no penalty.

Scales could be set by commish.

I suggested a similar scale two years ago, and got shot down. Anyway, I had a similar dispute with Yahoo over special teams "Turnovers" scoring last year or the year before I wanted a fumble recovery for anon-side kick recovery, lost the game on the difference. Now that I think about it, though, I was wrong. It's just a short return of a short kickoff. Didn't deserve to get any points.
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Re: THNFF 2016

Postby DarthMonk » Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:17 pm

I think we went a little overboard with IDP scoring changes.

Solo tackle is good at 1.

Assist is good at 0.5

Sack = 3 is too much. it's not equal to a FG. Sack = 2 is plenty. Same for a pick. Same for a fumble force.

It has been statistically shown that forcing fumbles is a skill but recovery is a pure coin flip. Fumble recovery should only be 1 point.

Tackle for loss should be an extra .5 not an extra 1. Then we have assist = .5, solo = 1, TFL = 1.5 and sack = 2. That makes sense to me.

I would bump a pass defended to 1.5. At 1 you get the same points for allowing a completion and then making the tackle as you do for knocking down the pass.
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Re: THNFF 2016

Postby langleyparkjoe » Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:49 am

Dag, what happened to the original thread? :shock:

Not really sure if there's anything I can even do in the future regarding those return yards. Just looked at the commish settings and it's pretty vague regarding those. Under DST all it says is "Return Yards" and it gives me the option to add how many yards per point. Seems like a platform issue but I checked my NFL league and it seems to be the same way like Yahoo.

Field Goal scoring.. As of right now anything from 0-39 is 3 points, 40-49 is 3.5 points and 50+ is 4 points. What's wrong with that?

IDP scoring.. It was fine for all these years but the league voted for the change. We can vote again for next season (remember I can't vote).
I do agree that forcing the fumble should be more than recovering it though.

Also I apologize for not being around the past couple weeks, maybe that's why the thread got deleted?

I would like everyone on THN to know the weekly results but having to upload the screen shot to a photo sharing site and posting it here tends to be quite annoying vs just posting the picture straight up. Plus I'm more limited on my www time at work now also. Any recommendations/suggestions?
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Re: THNFF 2016

Postby Deadskins » Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:03 pm

DarthMonk wrote:I think we went a little overboard with IDP scoring changes.

Solo tackle is good at 1.

Assist is good at 0.5

Sack = 3 is too much. it's not equal to a FG. Sack = 2 is plenty. Same for a pick. Same for a fumble force.

It has been statistically shown that forcing fumbles is a skill but recovery is a pure coin flip. Fumble recovery should only be 1 point.

Tackle for loss should be an extra .5 not an extra 1. Then we have assist = .5, solo = 1, TFL = 1.5 and sack = 2. That makes sense to me.

I would bump a pass defended to 1.5. At 1 you get the same points for allowing a completion and then making the tackle as you do for knocking down the pass.

You're thinking about it wrong. It's about awarding points based on statistical probability, so that any player, offense, defense, or kicker all have about the same scoring range possibility for any game. An incredible performance might warrant 30 points like you got from Kelley, average would be between 5-15 for a game. You can't think of it in football terms and say a sack isn't worth a FG. I agree. I think it's worth more than a FG. How many FGs will a kicker make over a season? 30-50. How many sacks will a LB make in a season? 5-20. The sack should get more points for relative rarity. But you also have to figure that a LB can also make points for other things so you adjust down for that.
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Re: THNFF 2016

Postby Deadskins » Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:06 pm

langleyparkjoe wrote:Dag, what happened to the original thread? :shock:

I suspect it may have been a casualty of the Great Spam War of 2016.
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Re: THNFF 2016

Postby Deadskins » Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:09 pm

Deadskins wrote:
langleyparkjoe wrote:Dag, what happened to the original thread? :shock:

I suspect it may have been a casualty of the Great Spam War of 2016.

But, now that you bring it up, I believe I was awaiting the results from the week I dropped LPJ... and the week after... and the week after
Where ya been?
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Re: THNFF 2016

Postby langleyparkjoe » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:28 am

Deadskins wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
langleyparkjoe wrote:Dag, what happened to the original thread? :shock:

I suspect it may have been a casualty of the Great Spam War of 2016.

But, now that you bring it up, I believe I was awaiting the results from the week I dropped LPJ... and the week after... and the week after
Where ya been?


IT Dept. did a crackdown.. I personally think they're cowboy fans who were just hating on me. :mrgreen:

..and you dropped me PROPER.. can't even front on that one my brutha. :mrgreen:
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Re: THNFF 2016

Postby DarthMonk » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:08 pm

Deadskins wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:I think we went a little overboard with IDP scoring changes.

Solo tackle is good at 1.

Assist is good at 0.5

Sack = 3 is too much. it's not equal to a FG. Sack = 2 is plenty. Same for a pick. Same for a fumble force.

It has been statistically shown that forcing fumbles is a skill but recovery is a pure coin flip. Fumble recovery should only be 1 point.

Tackle for loss should be an extra .5 not an extra 1. Then we have assist = .5, solo = 1, TFL = 1.5 and sack = 2. That makes sense to me.

I would bump a pass defended to 1.5. At 1 you get the same points for allowing a completion and then making the tackle as you do for knocking down the pass.

You're thinking about it wrong. It's about awarding points based on statistical probability, so that any player, offense, defense, or kicker all have about the same scoring range possibility for any game. An incredible performance might warrant 30 points like you got from Kelley, average would be between 5-15 for a game. You can't think of it in football terms and say a sack isn't worth a FG. I agree. I think it's worth more than a FG. How many FGs will a kicker make over a season? 30-50. How many sacks will a LB make in a season? 5-20. The sack should get more points for relative rarity. But you also have to figure that a LB can also make points for other things so you adjust down for that.


Comments to LPJ and the Deadman.

LPJ:

The return yards thing is all about Yahoo! and what a turnover is. It has nothing to do with the way you set things up.

Nothing is wrong with your field goal scoring. I'm simply going to recommend to Yahoo! that they offer a sliding scale option. That way a 45 yard FG is worth more than a 40 yard FG - just like a 45 yard run is worth more than a 40 yard run.


Deadman:

I'm not thinking about it wrong. I'm thinking about it differently. And I can say a sack is not worth a FG and I can say it's worth less and you can say it's worth more and we can have different reasons for our opinions.

Here is an argument against simply looking at things through the lens of statistical probability.

There have been 12 blocked FGs this year. There have been 826 TDs this year. Therefore a blocked FG should be worth 413 points.

OR

The league leader in TDs has 12. The league leader in blocked FGs has 2. Therefore a blocked FG should be worth 36 points.

These are (IMO) clearly absurd so statistical probability or relative rarity can only be part of the equation.

As you said:

Deadskins wrote:The sack should get more points for relative rarity. But you also have to figure that a LB can also make points for other things so you adjust down for that.


I agree. That's exactly what I proposed. I want to adjust down so a sack is worth more than a solo tackle or a simple tackle for loss. But I don't want it to be equal to a FG which actually puts points on the board. I can think of it in both football terms and relative rarity. Our top 25 WRTs average around 15 a game. Our top 25 Ks average around half that. Do we make FGs range from 6 to 10 in value? I know I don't want to.

This also affects draft. Ever notice how kickers are picked late? Not all positions in FF are created equal. Maybe they should be but that's an opinion.

I thought you were right in wanting more IDP points than we had. I'm not sorry we did what we did. I'm merely putting forth what I think are appropriate adjustments for next year. In my opinion, the pendulum has swung too far.
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Re: THNFF 2016

Postby Deadskins » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:33 am

DarthMonk wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:I think we went a little overboard with IDP scoring changes.

Solo tackle is good at 1.

Assist is good at 0.5

Sack = 3 is too much. it's not equal to a FG. Sack = 2 is plenty. Same for a pick. Same for a fumble force.

It has been statistically shown that forcing fumbles is a skill but recovery is a pure coin flip. Fumble recovery should only be 1 point.

Tackle for loss should be an extra .5 not an extra 1. Then we have assist = .5, solo = 1, TFL = 1.5 and sack = 2. That makes sense to me.

I would bump a pass defended to 1.5. At 1 you get the same points for allowing a completion and then making the tackle as you do for knocking down the pass.

You're thinking about it wrong. It's about awarding points based on statistical probability, so that any player, offense, defense, or kicker all have about the same scoring range possibility for any game. An incredible performance might warrant 30 points like you got from Kelley, average would be between 5-15 for a game. You can't think of it in football terms and say a sack isn't worth a FG. I agree. I think it's worth more than a FG. How many FGs will a kicker make over a season? 30-50. How many sacks will a LB make in a season? 5-20. The sack should get more points for relative rarity. But you also have to figure that a LB can also make points for other things so you adjust down for that.


Comments to LPJ and the Deadman.

LPJ:

The return yards thing is all about Yahoo! and what a turnover is. It has nothing to do with the way you set things up.

Nothing is wrong with your field goal scoring. I'm simply going to recommend to Yahoo! that they offer a sliding scale option. That way a 45 yard FG is worth more than a 40 yard FG - just like a 45 yard run is worth more than a 40 yard run.


Deadman:

I'm not thinking about it wrong. I'm thinking about it differently. And I can say a sack is not worth a FG and I can say it's worth less and you can say it's worth more and we can have different reasons for our opinions.

Here is an argument against simply looking at things through the lens of statistical probability.

There have been 12 blocked FGs this year. There have been 826 TDs this year. Therefore a blocked FG should be worth 413 points.

OR

The league leader in TDs has 12. The league leader in blocked FGs has 2. Therefore a blocked FG should be worth 36 points.

These are (IMO) clearly absurd so statistical probability or relative rarity can only be part of the equation.

As you said:

Deadskins wrote:The sack should get more points for relative rarity. But you also have to figure that a LB can also make points for other things so you adjust down for that.


I agree. That's exactly what I proposed. I want to adjust down so a sack is worth more than a solo tackle or a simple tackle for loss. But I don't want it to be equal to a FG which actually puts points on the board. I can think of it in both football terms and relative rarity. Our top 25 WRTs average around 15 a game. Our top 25 Ks average around half that. Do we make FGs range from 6 to 10 in value? I know I don't want to.

This also affects draft. Ever notice how kickers are picked late? Not all positions in FF are created equal. Maybe they should be but that's an opinion.

I thought you were right in wanting more IDP points than we had. I'm not sorry we did what we did. I'm merely putting forth what I think are appropriate adjustments for next year. In my opinion, the pendulum has swung too far.

Well, you're wrong in defining what I'm proposing. Obviously you can't equate a blocked kick with a TD as a single stat and say it should be worth X points. I never suggested any such thing. What I was saying is that you take a season long's stats and adjust the points rewarded for a stat so that the top defensive players score equally with the top offensive players. In real football the defense is just as much a factor in a game as the offense is, it's just much harder for them to put points on the board. My system looks to level the playing field in fantasy by rewarding defensive play of the stats under their control. So a sack is worth as much as a touchdown, because over the course of the game the three sacks, 10 tackles, and a pass defensed earned that LB 30 FP. The RB who scored 3 TDs and got a bonus for going over 150 yards also scored 30 FP, because he too had a great game at his position.
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Re: THNFF 2016

Postby DarthMonk » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:12 pm

If you read a little more carefully you might see that I understand what you are saying and essentially agree. I never defined what you are proposing. I pointed out a serious flaw in pure stats. I think the only thing you've said that is wrong is saying that I'm wrong. You're wrong on that.

Sure, defense is equally important in NFL games. It does not follow that good LBs should score, on average, the same number of fantasy points as good RBs and good Wrs. That is a matter of taste.

Some might say QBs are more important to offenses than RBs and WRs. Others might not. The former might like 6-point TD passes for FF. The latter might prefer "standard scoring" which gives 4 points.

I personally think we went too far with things like fumble recovery and tackle for loss. I don't think we've gone far enough with pass defensed.

You can argue the merits with me without calling me wrong.
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Re: THNFF 2016

Postby Deadskins » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:32 pm

DarthMonk wrote:If you read a little more carefully you might see that I understand what you are saying and essentially agree. I never defined what you are proposing. I pointed out a serious flaw in pure stats. I think the only thing you've said that is wrong is saying that I'm wrong. You're wrong on that.

Sure, defense is equally important in NFL games. It does not follow that good LBs should score, on average, the same number of fantasy points as good RBs and good Wrs. That is a matter of taste.

Some might say QBs are more important to offenses than RBs and WRs. Others might not. The former might like 6-point TD passes for FF. The latter might prefer "standard scoring" which gives 4 points.

I personally think we went too far with things like fumble recovery and tackle for loss. I don't think we've gone far enough with pass defensed.

You can argue the merits with me without calling me wrong.

Excuse me for using the wrong word. I didn't feel like you were understanding what I was proposing and felt like you were accusing me of wanting to use pure stats. FTR, I agree that the QB is a totally separate case. He scores more than any other position, just as it is today. In fact, the only change I'm advocating is adding in defense to the equation, but don't hamstring them, let them contribute equally. Doesn't really matter, everyone is bound by the same rules.
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Re: THNFF 2016

Postby DarthMonk » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:30 am

Almost broke the record.

Awesome game !

Deadskins put on a show in this matchup, registering the highest point total this season, leveling Yogi Cappsta 230.88 to 84.15.

Smooth Moves by Deadskins

Kirk Cousins scored the most points of any player on Deadskins this season with 49.63.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers Defense had 36.50 points, the second-highest DEF score of the week and the fifth-highest score among DEF in the league this season.

Jordan Reed had 26.50 points, the highest TE score of the week and the fourth-highest TE score in the league this season.

With 20.70 points, Devonta Freeman ranked seventh in scoring among all RBs in the league this week.
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