Atheism?

Wanna talk about politics, your favorite hockey team... vegetarian recipes?
|||||||
Posts: 4566
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:11 pm
Location: Somewhere, out there.

Postby UK Skins Fan » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:52 am

Irn-Bru wrote:
UK Skins Fan wrote:I shall continue to put my faith in the Redskins.


There's a saying, "I put my faith in Allah, but I tie my camel to the post."

I assume with the Redskins the equivalent would be something like, "I put my faith in the Redskins, but I stock my fridge with beer for post-game consolation."

:-)
Also available on Twitter @UKSkinsFan

cappster
Posts: 3001
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:25 am
Location: Humanist, at your service.

Postby Cappster » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:55 am

Irn-Bru wrote:
Cappster wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:
Cappster wrote:Saying something is true without any definitive data to back it up with is a logical fallacy.


:lol: The irony here is very funny.


I don't know what you are getting at. :?:


A logical fallacy is something that by definition has nothing to do with data.

Also, the claim, "saying something is true without any definitive data to back it up is a logical fallacy," itself lacks "definitive data to back it up," so it's self-referentially fallacious — if we take the idea seriously.


Claiming God is true + no real way to prove God is true = Logical Fallacy.
Sapphire AMD Radeon R9 280x, FTW!

Hog Bowl II Champion (2010)

cappster
Posts: 3001
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:25 am
Location: Humanist, at your service.

Postby Cappster » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:18 am

Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
cvillehog wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
cvillehog wrote:
Deadskins wrote:Moses and the burning bush
Deadskins wrote:parting of the Red Sea
Deadskins wrote:Jesus raising Lazarus


You do know that none of that crap actually happened, right? At least not as relayed in the Bible.

Says you. :wink:


And, you know, Biblical scholars and such. And Wikipedia! When has that site ever been wrong?! :twisted:

There are always people trying to prove and disprove stories in the Bible. Many want to show a scientific explanation of how something might have occured. Finding a logical explanation for a "miracle" doesn't mean that it happened that way, or that God didn't make it happen. Conversely, Biblical stories might be just that, stories. It's possible they are fictional, to try and relate an idea. But, for the purposes of my back and forth with Cappster, I wanted to know if he personally witnessed what he believed was a miracle, or had God speak to him, would that satisfy him, absent scientific evidence.


If I see a UFO flying around in the sky, am I to believe that is the work of God or am I going to try and figure out what I just witnessed? Saying something is true without any definitive data to back it up with is a logical fallacy. Just, because you cannot explain something at that moment in time doesn't mean there isn't a logical explanation behind the phenomena. Another example would be Northern Lights in Alaska. One could see it and think its the work of some deity, when it is caused by natural forces. The point I am trying to make is don't blindly believe anything unless you can provide irrefutable evidence to its existence.

Anyway, my premise was that this was a form of contact with God that you would accept as divine, and yet there would be no physical proof, at least that could be scientifically quantified. Yet, even though you witnessed it first-hand, you would not believe it, because it could not be scientifically quantified. Kind of a paradox, if you will.


People take hallucinogens to get closer to God, but all they are experiencing are figments of their imaginations. Just, because you think something may be divine, you have to be able to prove its divinity for it to be the truth. If I personally see or experience something that is unexplained, it is my duty to try and debunk whatever happened instead of automatically claiming that it was the work of God. At least that is how I see it.
Sapphire AMD Radeon R9 280x, FTW!

Hog Bowl II Champion (2010)

JSPB22
User avatar
Posts: 16277
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:03 am
Location: Location, LOCATION!

Postby Deadskins » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:40 am

Cappster wrote:People take hallucinogens to get closer to God, but all they are experiencing are figments of their imaginations.

Can you prove this? Maybe you should take some hallucinogens. 8)
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.


Hog Bowl IV Champion (2012)

Hail to the Redskins!

kazoo
Posts: 10280
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Kazmania

Postby KazooSkinsFan » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:15 am

Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:People take hallucinogens to get closer to God, but all they are experiencing are figments of their imaginations.

Can you prove this? Maybe you should take some hallucinogens. 8)


I was wondering about that one too, it seemed pretty out of left field. I don't see what it had to do with the discussion of proof of God's existence.
Groucho: Man does not control his own fate. The women in his life do that for him

Proverb: Failure is not falling down. Failure is not getting up again

Twain: A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way

cappster
Posts: 3001
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:25 am
Location: Humanist, at your service.

Postby Cappster » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:26 am

Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:People take hallucinogens to get closer to God, but all they are experiencing are figments of their imaginations.

Can you prove this? Maybe you should take some hallucinogens. 8)


Science can prove the effects of peyote's hallucinogenic properties. And I ate some magic mushrooms when I was 16 and that was enough for me. If that is what its like to get closer to God I'd rather stay far away. It was pretty cool to see the spice girls poster I was staring at start dancing, but the whole walls pulsating and things bending in half I could do without.
Sapphire AMD Radeon R9 280x, FTW!

Hog Bowl II Champion (2010)

FanFromAnnapolis
Posts: 11168
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:01 pm
Location: on the bandwagon

Postby Irn-Bru » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:32 am

Cappster wrote:Claiming God is true + no real way to prove God is true = Logical Fallacy.


Your use of "real way" begs the question. For example, do logic, reason, and arguments count as a "real way"? If so, then you should check out the rest of this thread, which contains such arguments.

But if not, then we're back to the irony of making an empirically unverifiable claim that all claims must be verifiable in order to be true.
"Last year I thought we'd win it all. This year I know we will." - Rex Ryan, on what would become the 8-8 2011 Jets

"Dream team." - Vince Young, on what would become the 8-8 2011 Eagles

JSPB22
User avatar
Posts: 16277
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:03 am
Location: Location, LOCATION!

Postby Deadskins » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:21 am

Cappster wrote:the whole walls pulsating and things bending in half I could do without.

Maybe you were seeing reality for the first time. :idea:
But my question was really about how you could prove that what you were seeing was a figment of your imagination.
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.


Hog Bowl IV Champion (2012)

Hail to the Redskins!

cappster
Posts: 3001
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:25 am
Location: Humanist, at your service.

Postby Cappster » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:52 am

Irn-Bru wrote:
Cappster wrote:Claiming God is true + no real way to prove God is true = Logical Fallacy.


Your use of "real way" begs the question. For example, do logic, reason, and arguments count as a "real way"? If so, then you should check out the rest of this thread, which contains such arguments.

But if not, then we're back to the irony of making an empirically unverifiable claim that all claims must be verifiable in order to be true.


When it comes to claiming God is real, there needs to be something tangible there to backup one's claim. Okay, I get that things happen to people where they believe they were talked to by God or whatever yet the only *proof* they have is what they believe they experienced. I can believe the sun revolves around the Earth, but that doesn't mean it is true. We can, however, prove that the Earth revolves around the sun. I also can say I love someone and only I know if I love them or not. However, I can express how I love someone through actions, but I am flesh and bone while God is *poof* something, nothing, or who in the hell knows what.
Sapphire AMD Radeon R9 280x, FTW!

Hog Bowl II Champion (2010)

cappster
Posts: 3001
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:25 am
Location: Humanist, at your service.

Postby Cappster » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:56 am

Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:the whole walls pulsating and things bending in half I could do without.

Maybe you were seeing reality for the first time. :idea:
But my question was really about how you could prove that what you were seeing was a figment of your imagination.


Haha I was seeing reality alright...it was more like an alternate universe! And I know it was a figment of my imagination as the clock sitting on top of the tv, without the use of an hallucinogen, doesn't bend in half.
Sapphire AMD Radeon R9 280x, FTW!

Hog Bowl II Champion (2010)

JSPB22
User avatar
Posts: 16277
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:03 am
Location: Location, LOCATION!

Postby Deadskins » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:00 pm

Cappster wrote:And I know it was a figment of my imagination as the clock sitting on top of the tv, without the use of an hallucinogen, doesn't bend in half.

Why is it's not bending not the figment of your imagination? Perhaps in your "normal" state, your mind cannot perceive the bending.
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.


Hog Bowl IV Champion (2012)

Hail to the Redskins!

cappster
Posts: 3001
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:25 am
Location: Humanist, at your service.

Postby Cappster » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:05 pm

Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:And I know it was a figment of my imagination as the clock sitting on top of the tv, without the use of an hallucinogen, doesn't bend in half.

Why is it's not bending not the figment of your imagination? Perhaps in your "normal" state, your mind cannot perceive the bending.


If I were to touch the clock, I would find out that it is not bent in half.
Sapphire AMD Radeon R9 280x, FTW!

Hog Bowl II Champion (2010)

JSPB22
User avatar
Posts: 16277
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:03 am
Location: Location, LOCATION!

Postby Deadskins » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:09 pm

Cappster wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:And I know it was a figment of my imagination as the clock sitting on top of the tv, without the use of an hallucinogen, doesn't bend in half.

Why is it's not bending not the figment of your imagination? Perhaps in your "normal" state, your mind cannot perceive the bending.


If I were to touch the clock, I would find out that it is not bent in half.

Would you? Even if your mind can't perceive the bend? You do know that most physicists now believe there are dimensions other than the three we perceive (or four if you count time), right? But you don't experience those dimensions through touch (or any other sense). Perhaps with the aide of an hallucinogen, you were able to perceive another dimension. :idea:
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.


Hog Bowl IV Champion (2012)

Hail to the Redskins!

FanFromAnnapolis
Posts: 11168
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:01 pm
Location: on the bandwagon

Postby Irn-Bru » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:17 pm

Cappster wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:
Cappster wrote:Claiming God is true + no real way to prove God is true = Logical Fallacy.


Your use of "real way" begs the question. For example, do logic, reason, and arguments count as a "real way"? If so, then you should check out the rest of this thread, which contains such arguments.

But if not, then we're back to the irony of making an empirically unverifiable claim that all claims must be verifiable in order to be true.


When it comes to claiming God is real, there needs to be something tangible there to backup one's claim.


You didn't answer my question above, though.
"Last year I thought we'd win it all. This year I know we will." - Rex Ryan, on what would become the 8-8 2011 Jets

"Dream team." - Vince Young, on what would become the 8-8 2011 Eagles

JSPB22
User avatar
Posts: 16277
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:03 am
Location: Location, LOCATION!

Postby Deadskins » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:19 pm

Here's an example:
An ant is walking on the surface of a balloon. To it, this surface is flat, not bent. Ant's experience life in two dimensions (forward/backward and left/right). So does that make it reality, since its tangible evidence is that the world is two dimensional?
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.


Hog Bowl IV Champion (2012)

Hail to the Redskins!

Return to The Lounge