Atheism?

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Postby Cappster » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:31 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:
Cappster wrote:Logic, reasoning, and arguments are good for debating theories about the existence of something. The key word is theory as in the theoretical existence of God not that God, without a doubt, exists which would be a Law.

Empirical data cannot establish laws; data can only falsify (or fail to falsify) theories. The known laws of the universe are theories, insofar as we articulate them.

Going back to my original argument...God could end all of the speculation if he truly wanted to, but why doesn't he? He either likes effing with us or he doesn't exist.

You are leaving out more than a few middle options here. For example, what if God exists but doesn't spend his time worrying about how you perceive his involvement or lack thereof in the universe? Why should human beings assume that if God exists he should be doing something special to prove that existence to us, especially the skeptical among us?


Then we should be talking about God as a theoretical being, but some claim the deity to be undeniably real.

If God puts so much emphasis on the human race such as condemning us to hell for not worshiping him, he owes us the common courtesy of undoubtedly proving to us his existence. If we are such a tiny spec of the universe then why would he even care anyway what we think? I want someone/something who claims to be my supreme ruler to remove any doubt that he/it is what they claim to be. I don't think that is too much to ask.
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Postby Deadskins » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:32 pm

Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:All you just said was that the earth wasnt there really......

That is definitely not what I said, nor is it what "void and without form" means. And for the record, I don't think "earth" here means the planet on which we live, but rather all the matter in the universe.
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:32 pm

langleyparkjoe wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
langleyparkjoe wrote:Dear God, why you let evil things happen to people... like child molestation, rape, murder, torture?


As an analogy, my answer would be a 5 year old who asks why her teacher let them spill their juice after the teacher told them 5 times to stop what they were doing, they were going to spill their juice. To the kid, the juice is everything. To the teacher, it's not that simple.


*good answer my friend*

So why give us the freedom of making our own decisions.. and HE supposedly knows what will happen anyways? Seems like a mean thing to do huh?


I would argue using my example that the teacher:

1) In the short run knows that "if" the kid doesn't listen to her "then" the kid is likely to spill his juice based on experience, but it might or might not happen.

2) The teacher wants the kid to listen to her and stop on his own rather then forcing him to follow her advice.

3) The teacher is thinking of next time and the lesson, not just this time.

I have always doubted the idea that God knows everything with 100% certainty of what will happen, I don't see the point.
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Postby Cappster » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:35 pm

langleyparkjoe wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
langleyparkjoe wrote:Dear God, why you let evil things happen to people... like child molestation, rape, murder, torture?


As an analogy, my answer would be a 5 year old who asks why her teacher let them spill their juice after the teacher told them 5 times to stop what they were doing, they were going to spill their juice. To the kid, the juice is everything. To the teacher, it's not that simple.


*good answer my friend*

So why give us the freedom of making our own decisions.. and HE supposedly knows what will happen anyways? Seems like a mean thing to do huh?


And that is why I say that if there is a God, he is effing with us. The analogy is weak for the fact that God is supposed to be all powerful and can do anything. To that I say God should ensure that children go unharmed and are well fed. Would you not feed your child if you had the power to do so? And the excuse that "God's ways are higher than ours" is a cop out for anyone who chooses to invoke that saying.
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Postby Cappster » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:36 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
langleyparkjoe wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
langleyparkjoe wrote:Dear God, why you let evil things happen to people... like child molestation, rape, murder, torture?


As an analogy, my answer would be a 5 year old who asks why her teacher let them spill their juice after the teacher told them 5 times to stop what they were doing, they were going to spill their juice. To the kid, the juice is everything. To the teacher, it's not that simple.


*good answer my friend*

So why give us the freedom of making our own decisions.. and HE supposedly knows what will happen anyways? Seems like a mean thing to do huh?



I would argue using my example that the teacher:

1) In the short run knows that "if" the kid doesn't listen to her "then" the kid is likely to spill his juice based on experience, but it might or might not happen.

2) The teacher wants the kid to listen to her and stop on his own rather then forcing him to follow her advice.

3) The teacher is thinking of next time and the lesson, not just this time.

I have always doubted the idea that God knows everything with 100% certainty of what will happen, I don't see the point.


All he has to do is take away our devious intentions and leave us with righteous thoughts and actions. Isn't that what heaven is going to be like? No murders, kids starving, etc...? Why not just do it now to benefit everyone?

Removing the sinister intentions solves the problem. Remove man's greed, warmongering, murderous, and devious ways. Problem solved. We still have free will to choose from the rest of the choices we can make.
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Postby Irn-Bru » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:51 pm

Cappster wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:
Cappster wrote:Logic, reasoning, and arguments are good for debating theories about the existence of something. The key word is theory as in the theoretical existence of God not that God, without a doubt, exists which would be a Law.

Empirical data cannot establish laws; data can only falsify (or fail to falsify) theories. The known laws of the universe are theories, insofar as we articulate them.
Going back to my original argument...God could end all of the speculation if he truly wanted to, but why doesn't he? He either likes effing with us or he doesn't exist.

You are leaving out more than a few middle options here. For example, what if God exists but doesn't spend his time worrying about how you perceive his involvement or lack thereof in the universe? Why should human beings assume that if God exists he should be doing something special to prove that existence to us, especially the skeptical among us?

Then we should be talking about God as a theoretical being, but some claim the deity to be undeniably real.

If by "theoretical" you mean "hypothetical," then I disagree. Suppose for a minute that God does exist: then regardless of whatever you or I may think of him, one thing that's certain is that he's "undeniably real." And it's conceivable that we could talk about God on those terms.

If God puts so much emphasis on the human race such as condemning us to hell for not worshiping him, he owes us the common courtesy of undoubtedly proving to us his existence. If we are such a tiny spec of the universe then why would he even care anyway what we think? I want someone/something who claims to be my supreme ruler to remove any doubt that he/it is what they claim to be. I don't think that is too much to ask.

Who are you talking to? Me? God? :lol:

I'm not sure whether you intended this to be a response to what I said. Here's why I think it isn't one. You said: "[God] either likes effing with us or he doesn't exist." I pointed out that these aren't the only options.

Now you are launching into some bit about hell and worship. But let's suppose that Christianity is all BS. God could still exist. For example, maybe another religion is right about him, or none of them are but yet he still exists. So that digression really has nothing to do with what we were talking about.
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:09 pm

Cappster wrote:God is supposed to be all powerful and can do anything


We're discussing how we know there is a "God," so why does everyone arguing for God is burdened with your preconceptions of what believing in God means?
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:13 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:Now you are launching into some bit about hell and worship. But let's suppose that Christianity is all BS. God could still exist. For example, maybe another religion is right about him, or none of them are but yet he still exists. So that digression really has nothing to do with what we were talking about.


You're missing an option, that "all" the religions are about him. Sticking with my kindergarten example, would you teach a kindergarten class in the US and India the same way?
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Postby Irn-Bru » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:23 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:Now you are launching into some bit about hell and worship. But let's suppose that Christianity is all BS. God could still exist. For example, maybe another religion is right about him, or none of them are but yet he still exists. So that digression really has nothing to do with what we were talking about.


You're missing an option, that "all" the religions are about him.

Sure, that's another option. But the possibilities for how a God might be interacting with human beings basically doesn't have a bearing on the question of whether there is a God, is my point.

Obviously if we can know that God is doing X, Y, or Z, then there is a God. But putting aside the question of religion and how human beings relate to God, I think we can also just talk about the question of God's existence itself. Make sense?
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Postby cvillehog » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:27 pm

This discussion is super going in circles. We had a version of the same argument in this same thread like a year ago. I believe I posted a reductionist "proof" against god posed by Epicurus some 2500 years ago (hey, that's almost as old as some people think the bible says the earth is!) that touched on some of the same arguments against omnipotence.

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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:15 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:Now you are launching into some bit about hell and worship. But let's suppose that Christianity is all BS. God could still exist. For example, maybe another religion is right about him, or none of them are but yet he still exists. So that digression really has nothing to do with what we were talking about.


You're missing an option, that "all" the religions are about him.

Sure, that's another option. But the possibilities for how a God might be interacting with human beings basically doesn't have a bearing on the question of whether there is a God, is my point.

Obviously if we can know that God is doing X, Y, or Z, then there is a God. But putting aside the question of religion and how human beings relate to God, I think we can also just talk about the question of God's existence itself. Make sense?


Yes. I didn't think you'd find my point objectionable anyway.

I find inconceivable the idea that God would tell us how to communicate with him rather than his figuring out how to communicate most effectively with us. If you are the kindergarten teacher example, the goals of teaching in America and India would be the same, but the methods would be different. The goals would be based on your higher knowledge of education and child development, but your methods would be to most effectively reach the kids most effectively regarding their capability to understand, which includes their language and culture.

You can make the judgment that spilling juice is a lesson opportunity, but touching a hot stove is non-negotiable. They can't make that call. And that changes as kids age. In ancient times, pork was full of disease, but God explaining germs would have been lost, so saying it's "not clean" and it's forbidden was logical. Today, pork is no more dangerous than other meats. Just like when kids are older, the stove is not a "no" subject.

Another way to look at it rather than the kindergarten teacher would be that if you go back before people traveled and asked farmers in Italy, France and Germany to describe the Alps, you would get different answers. Sure, there would be similarity, but it wouldn't be the same. Same mountains, different vantage point.

I personally believe God exists and is personal to me because all of my experiences tell me so. I also believe God is good because he gives me the ability to be happy if I make the right choices. Only a good God would do that. Other then that, I don't worry about what the Alps look like to someone viewing them from a different angle.
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Postby Cappster » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:31 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:
Cappster wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:
Cappster wrote:Logic, reasoning, and arguments are good for debating theories about the existence of something. The key word is theory as in the theoretical existence of God not that God, without a doubt, exists which would be a Law.

Empirical data cannot establish laws; data can only falsify (or fail to falsify) theories. The known laws of the universe are theories, insofar as we articulate them.
Going back to my original argument...God could end all of the speculation if he truly wanted to, but why doesn't he? He either likes effing with us or he doesn't exist.

You are leaving out more than a few middle options here. For example, what if God exists but doesn't spend his time worrying about how you perceive his involvement or lack thereof in the universe? Why should human beings assume that if God exists he should be doing something special to prove that existence to us, especially the skeptical among us?

Then we should be talking about God as a theoretical being, but some claim the deity to be undeniably real.

If by "theoretical" you mean "hypothetical," then I disagree. Suppose for a minute that God does exist: then regardless of whatever you or I may think of him, one thing that's certain is that he's "undeniably real." And it's conceivable that we could talk about God on those terms.

If God puts so much emphasis on the human race such as condemning us to hell for not worshiping him, he owes us the common courtesy of undoubtedly proving to us his existence. If we are such a tiny spec of the universe then why would he even care anyway what we think? I want someone/something who claims to be my supreme ruler to remove any doubt that he/it is what they claim to be. I don't think that is too much to ask.

Who are you talking to? Me? God? :lol:

I'm not sure whether you intended this to be a response to what I said. Here's why I think it isn't one. You said: "[God] either likes effing with us or he doesn't exist." I pointed out that these aren't the only options.

Now you are launching into some bit about hell and worship. But let's suppose that Christianity is all BS. God could still exist. For example, maybe another religion is right about him, or none of them are but yet he still exists. So that digression really has nothing to do with what we were talking about.


If God exists and religion(s) have it all wrong, again, he should set the record straight. It's a simple concept of "show me conclusively that you (whoever or whatever that is) are God and I will, in turn, give credit where credit is due."
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:54 pm

Cappster wrote:If God exists and religion(s) have it all wrong, again, he should set the record straight. It's a simple concept of "show me conclusively that you (whoever or whatever that is) are God and I will, in turn, give credit where credit is due."


Once again you undercut your own credibility. You're asking the people who believe in God to justify ... your ... views. You don't need God, you don't need us to explain God to you, you're explaining God to us. You don't need anyone else in the thread at all.
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Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:06 pm

langleyparkjoe wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
langleyparkjoe wrote:Dear God, why you let evil things happen to people... like child molestation, rape, murder, torture?


As an analogy, my answer would be a 5 year old who asks why her teacher let them spill their juice after the teacher told them 5 times to stop what they were doing, they were going to spill their juice. To the kid, the juice is everything. To the teacher, it's not that simple.


*good answer my friend*

So why give us the freedom of making our own decisions.. and HE supposedly knows what will happen anyways? Seems like a mean thing to do huh?


On top of the why let bad things happen argument- which is easily answered god gave man freedom of choice.

- I challenge why do select few "see" god or heaven or Jesus? Why not me? I'm a good man, and if there is a god I acknowledge he gave me the brain to question and need evidence- maybe science is a form of his blessings.. so me a thinking man questiong all "words" written or said... Would perceive myself to be smart enough to question all prophets and determine what are false idols.
Now any grown man can read the bible, "king James the whatever's VERSION" as written by man. What men? Charles Manson types? Hail bop goons?
Why am I not blessed enough to see or hear the word from the true creator?
My logical explanation is that he or she or it does not give an ish about us (with all the other galaxies going on) and that not all u *read is true.
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Postby Irn-Bru » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:09 pm

Cappster wrote:If God exists and religion(s) have it all wrong, again, he should set the record straight. It's a simple concept of "show me conclusively that you (whoever or whatever that is) are God and I will, in turn, give credit where credit is due."


What if God exists but doesn't spend his time worrying about how you perceive his involvement or lack thereof in the universe? What if he doesn't care that some humans are involved in silly, mistaken religions?

Why should human beings assume that if God exists he should be doing something special to prove that existence to us, especially to the skeptical? That's not a good reason to think God doesn't exist.
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