Atheism?

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Postby cvillehog » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:28 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
cvillehog wrote:So, people were asking for proof against God. Here's one such "proof" (in the philosophical sense) from way back in the day. Presented here not because I feel one way or another about it (or about Epicurus himself), but because I knew it existed and no one else brought it up. Plus, I like thought experiments.

Epicurus, 2nd Century BCE wrote:Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot.
Or he can, but does not want to.
Or he cannot, and does not want to.

If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent.
If he can, but does not want to, then he is wicked.
If he neither can, nor wants to, he is both powerless and wicked.


Why don't teachers give students the answers to tests? Every student could get 100% on every test and make their parents happy and go on to get PhD's. Is it because they are wicked? Or is it not that simple?


Another way to look at omnipotence:

Can an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that it cannot lift it?

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Postby ATX_Skins » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:31 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:Kaz, you are not funny.


Re-read the thread, my friend. You are funny. And I never take the word of someone who's being made sport of that it wasn't funny...


I think half of your post counts are you telling other members to re-read something. That in itself is kinda funny I guess.
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:33 pm

Deadskins wrote:I have a very good relationship with Him. Nothing you can say will change that.


Nothing anyone can say will change that. I am in the exact same situation, My family, particularly my grandmother, mother and wife are born again and it bothers them to no end that I'm not "christian." I don't understand it because I feel that I have an excellent personal relationship with God and I have seen both by observation and through interaction that God is real and in my life. I don't get why that's not enough for them and they need to put it in dogmatic terms. Interestingly ATX is like them, not me. God without religion makes no sense to him. To me, as much as I believe in God, religion makes no sense. I see it as just a man made institution based on group think.
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Proverb: Failure is not falling down. Failure is not getting up again

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Postby Irn-Bru » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:37 pm

ATX_Skins wrote:It's funny to me that when an Atheist walks in the room nobody is religious anymore. I am not talking about God anymore. I am talking about religion.

In other words, you'll stop making the inference that if the religions we know of are wrong, there is no God? That's good.

Interesting that some people I have a feeling are hiding their faith behind the term "God".

If you think I'm hiding something, let me know. I'm happy to talk about most things, though I do have a penchant for sticking to the argument at hand.


I cannot argue there is no God, I can argue that anyone's religion is utter crap though.

Suppose there is a God. Now suppose someone adheres to a religion that worships this God. Those two ideas pose no contradiction.

What is a contradiction, however, is saying that you can't dispute the first premise, but that you can somehow still know the second premise must be absurd. You don't have a base from which to launch that attack.


The origins of this thread were in regards to one of the members becoming a born again Christian and having Jesus Christ in his life. Lets stick to religion then shall we.

As others have pointed out, it was you that brought up atheism and the existence of God to begin with. If you had stuck to religion you wouldn't have made the claim that looking up at the sky tells you God doesn't exist — there's no religion in that argument.

That said, if you want to move on to just religion that's fine too. But I still don't see the motivation here: who is supposed to want to defend it, and why?
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:42 pm

ATX_Skins wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:Kaz, you are not funny.


Re-read the thread, my friend. You are funny. And I never take the word of someone who's being made sport of that it wasn't funny...


I think half of your post counts are you telling other members to re-read something. That in itself is kinda funny I guess.


I like challenges, so I just re-read the thread to test your hypothesis.

This is my 15th post in the thread.

Four were referring to re-reading, all four were addressed to you, not "other members." Not that you're not a member, you just make it sound like I wasn't just saying it to you.

1) The first post to re-read was where you changed what I said. I included both posts and highlighted what I said and what you changed it to.

2) The second was where you were asking for my religious view after I'd given it to you. I went back and quoted it for you.

3) The third was the same.

4) This was the general reference to that you are funny because you are dancing. Granted this was a general "re-read" challenge. The first three were your bad, you were wrong and I proved it in the post by providing the specific quotes.

This was your bad too, and funny. You said you had time and would take on all challenges, then you asked why you were the one who was doing all the "heavy lifting." Dude, you are funny... And maybe we don't need a dancing emoticon, you'd be tiring the poor guy out by now...
Groucho: Man does not control his own fate. The women in his life do that for him

Proverb: Failure is not falling down. Failure is not getting up again

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Postby ATX_Skins » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:45 pm

IMO opinion there are two ways of viewing "God"

God in religious terms is the creation of all that is in line with their beliefs.

God on a non personal level is the idea that however the Universe was created, science included, that THAT is God.
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:49 pm

ATX_Skins wrote:IMO opinion there are two ways of viewing "God"

God in religious terms is the creation of all that is in line with their beliefs.

God on a non personal level is the idea that however the Universe was created, science included, that THAT is God.


Ahhh, I'm always glad when someone can explain to me so eloquently as you you did that my belief doesn't exist. Sorry dude, if you want to believe in a personal God, you have to pick a religion, or it's "out of bounds." You keep saying personal God but you aren't picking from my pre-approved menu of legitimate options. Don't like Christian? Could I interest you in "Jewish?" There's also a nice little religion in the south pacific I can get you for a song...
Last edited by KazooSkinsFan on Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Groucho: Man does not control his own fate. The women in his life do that for him

Proverb: Failure is not falling down. Failure is not getting up again

Twain: A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way

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Postby ATX_Skins » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:50 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:Kaz, you are not funny.


Re-read the thread, my friend. You are funny. And I never take the word of someone who's being made sport of that it wasn't funny...


I think half of your post counts are you telling other members to re-read something. That in itself is kinda funny I guess.


I like challenges, so I just re-read the thread to test your hypothesis.

This is my 15th post in the thread.

Four were referring to re-reading, all four were addressed to you, not "other members." Not that you're not a member, you just make it sound like I wasn't just saying it to you.

1) The first post to re-read was where you changed what I said. I included both posts and highlighted what I said and what you changed it to.

2) The second was where you were asking for my religious view after I'd given it to you. I went back and quoted it for you.

3) The third was the same.

4) This was the general reference to that you are funny because you are dancing. Granted this was a general "re-read" challenge. The first three were your bad, you were wrong and I proved it in the post by providing the specific quotes.

This was your bad too, and funny. You said you had time and would take on all challenges, then you asked why you were the one who was doing all the "heavy lifting." Dude, you are funny... And maybe we don't need a dancing emoticon, you'd be tiring the poor guy out by now...


If you are going to use (") correctly, please make sure you put exactly what was said in there.

"heavy hitting" like that. See I just proved you were wrong.
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Postby ATX_Skins » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:53 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:IMO opinion there are two ways of viewing "God"

God in religious terms is the creation of all that is in line with their beliefs.

God on a non personal level is the idea that however the Universe was created, science included, that THAT is God.


Ahhh, I'm always glad when someone can explain to me so eloquently as you you did that my belief doesn't exist. Sorry dude, if you want to believe in a personal God, you have to pick a religion, or it's "out of bounds." You keep saying personal God but you aren't picking from my pre-approved menu of legitimate options. Don't like Christian? Could I interest you in "Jewish?" There's also a nice little religion in the south pacific I can get you for a song...


As far as I know you are confused. You would like to think you believe in god because it sounds so appropriate. You can back your way out of any situation by saying you "just believe in god". Good for you. I'm not buying it. You don't pray do you, or is it that you just like the idea of god?
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:54 pm

ATX_Skins wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:Kaz, you are not funny.


Re-read the thread, my friend. You are funny. And I never take the word of someone who's being made sport of that it wasn't funny...


I think half of your post counts are you telling other members to re-read something. That in itself is kinda funny I guess.


I like challenges, so I just re-read the thread to test your hypothesis.

This is my 15th post in the thread.

Four were referring to re-reading, all four were addressed to you, not "other members." Not that you're not a member, you just make it sound like I wasn't just saying it to you.

1) The first post to re-read was where you changed what I said. I included both posts and highlighted what I said and what you changed it to.

2) The second was where you were asking for my religious view after I'd given it to you. I went back and quoted it for you.

3) The third was the same.

4) This was the general reference to that you are funny because you are dancing. Granted this was a general "re-read" challenge. The first three were your bad, you were wrong and I proved it in the post by providing the specific quotes.

This was your bad too, and funny. You said you had time and would take on all challenges, then you asked why you were the one who was doing all the "heavy lifting." Dude, you are funny... And maybe we don't need a dancing emoticon, you'd be tiring the poor guy out by now...


If you are going to use (") correctly, please make sure you put exactly what was said in there.

"heavy hitting" like that. See I just proved you were wrong.


That's what you have? I said heavy lifting and the correct quote was heavy hitting?
Groucho: Man does not control his own fate. The women in his life do that for him

Proverb: Failure is not falling down. Failure is not getting up again

Twain: A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way

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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:56 pm

ATX_Skins wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:IMO opinion there are two ways of viewing "God"

God in religious terms is the creation of all that is in line with their beliefs.

God on a non personal level is the idea that however the Universe was created, science included, that THAT is God.


Ahhh, I'm always glad when someone can explain to me so eloquently as you you did that my belief doesn't exist. Sorry dude, if you want to believe in a personal God, you have to pick a religion, or it's "out of bounds." You keep saying personal God but you aren't picking from my pre-approved menu of legitimate options. Don't like Christian? Could I interest you in "Jewish?" There's also a nice little religion in the south pacific I can get you for a song...


As far as I know you are confused. You would like to think you believe in god because it sounds so appropriate. You can back your way out of any situation by saying you "just believe in god". Good for you. I'm not buying it. You don't pray do you, or is it that you just like the idea of god?


What situation did I back my "way out of?"
Groucho: Man does not control his own fate. The women in his life do that for him

Proverb: Failure is not falling down. Failure is not getting up again

Twain: A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way

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Postby Deadskins » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:57 pm

ATX_Skins wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:I have some free time today so if anyone would like to defend religion, by all means I would love to hear what you have to say.


What are people supposed to be defending religion against? I haven't seen any criticisms of it . . . just a guy looking up at the clouds and saying he lives by reality. Not exactly heavy-hitting material there. ;)


I didn't make the thread, not sure why I should have to do the heavy hitting...

Well, I started it, but it was based on a comment you made in another thread. So, in a way, you did make the thread, or at least made it possible.

ATX_Skins wrote:It's funny to me that when an Atheist walks in the room nobody is religious anymore. I am not talking about God anymore. I am talking about religion.

Interesting that some people I have a feeling are hiding their faith behind the term "God".

I cannot argue there is no God, I can argue that anyone's religion is utter crap though.

The origins of this thread were in regards to one of the members becoming a born again Christian and having Jesus Christ in his life. Lets stick to religion then shall we.

I consider myself religious. I am a Christian, not born again, but a Christian no less. I believe that Jesus was the messiah, and he died so that I, and the rest of the world might be saved. I don't proselytize or try to impose my beliefs on anyone else, but I would never deny my beliefs out of embarrassment or concern for some sort of negative retribution, especially on a message board. I often pray that God will reveal Himself to those that don't know His love the way I do. So if you want to try and belittle me for my beliefs, go for it. It won't affect me, because, as I said before, I have personal proof there is a God, and I have a very good relationship with Him. Nothing you can say will change that.


Why do you feel as though the world needs to be saved. Don't you think Christianity has done enough damage already?

I don't think Christianity has done any damage at all. Are you one of those people who thinks guns kill people, not that the person who pulled the trigger actually did the killing?
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:59 pm

Deadskins wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:Why do you feel as though the world needs to be saved. Don't you think Christianity has done enough damage already?

I don't think Christianity has done any damage at all. Are you one of those people who thinks guns kill people, not that the person who pulled the trigger actually did the killing?


Well put. :up:
Groucho: Man does not control his own fate. The women in his life do that for him

Proverb: Failure is not falling down. Failure is not getting up again

Twain: A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way

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Postby ATX_Skins » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:09 pm

Deadskins wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:I have some free time today so if anyone would like to defend religion, by all means I would love to hear what you have to say.


What are people supposed to be defending religion against? I haven't seen any criticisms of it . . . just a guy looking up at the clouds and saying he lives by reality. Not exactly heavy-hitting material there. ;)


I didn't make the thread, not sure why I should have to do the heavy hitting...

Well, I started it, but it was based on a comment you made in another thread. So, in a way, you did make the thread, or at least made it possible.

ATX_Skins wrote:It's funny to me that when an Atheist walks in the room nobody is religious anymore. I am not talking about God anymore. I am talking about religion.

Interesting that some people I have a feeling are hiding their faith behind the term "God".

I cannot argue there is no God, I can argue that anyone's religion is utter crap though.

The origins of this thread were in regards to one of the members becoming a born again Christian and having Jesus Christ in his life. Lets stick to religion then shall we.

I consider myself religious. I am a Christian, not born again, but a Christian no less. I believe that Jesus was the messiah, and he died so that I, and the rest of the world might be saved. I don't proselytize or try to impose my beliefs on anyone else, but I would never deny my beliefs out of embarrassment or concern for some sort of negative retribution, especially on a message board. I often pray that God will reveal Himself to those that don't know His love the way I do. So if you want to try and belittle me for my beliefs, go for it. It won't affect me, because, as I said before, I have personal proof there is a God, and I have a very good relationship with Him. Nothing you can say will change that.


Why do you feel as though the world needs to be saved. Don't you think Christianity has done enough damage already?

I don't think Christianity has done any damage at all. Are you one of those people who thinks guns kill people, not that the person who pulled the trigger actually did the killing?


You don't think a religious based military campaign to regain "holy land" isn't doing damage? How many people were killed, enslaved, raped and murdered? How many people were religiously motivated to go on the crusades and fight for a religion through means of fear and intimidation?
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Postby Deadskins » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:14 pm

ATX_Skins wrote:IMO opinion there are two ways of viewing "God"

God in religious terms is the creation of all that is in line with their beliefs.

God on a non personal level is the idea that however the Universe was created, science included, that THAT is God.

In your opinion opinion, why are those two mutually exclusive? Can God not have created everything, science included, and that be in line with all of my beliefs?
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