Where are all the Mike Williams guys now?

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Where are all the Mike Williams guys now?

Postby JPFair » Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:17 am

Just a few points from my perspective:

1- If nothing else, Joe Gibbs will be vindicated for selecting Campbell in the 1st round. Everyone who questioned why he hasn't had the utmost of confidence in Ramsey should now be thanking Gibbs for seeing something that doesn't make him convinced yet. Ramsey will still get the upper hand at starting, but Ramsey should take nothing for granted.

2- It really does boil down to one thing with Ramsey: He is atrocious in the pocket. He looks uncomfortable, indecisive, tries to do too much, doesn't know what the right thing is, and refuses to change his bad habits. He has no choice but to change his bad habits, because he's not a mobile QB, yet he steadfastly refuses to heed the Coaches advice about how to be comfortable in the pocket. Put it this way, he's not a good student of the game. And, in this business and at his age, you'd damn well better be a good student of the game.

3- All those people that say "Brunell sucks" and he's "washed up" should not proclaim his career over. One bad year does not a career make. He has several good years under his belt, and one bad year does not automatically make him a washed up QB. Yes, he sucked last year, but so did a lot of Redskins players. Does he deserve to start after one good showing in the first pre-season game? Absolutely not, but just like Ramsey shouldn't take anything for granted, I would hope Brunell strives to be the best QB he can possibly be. Irregardless of his critics, and how many people think he "sucks", Brunell is a class act, he's a professional, and ultimately he will be vindicated, whether that be as a starter or a backup remains to be seen.

4- Where are all the "Joe Gibbs is washed up for not taking Mike Williams" guys now?

5- Ramsey will get better as the pre-season goes on, but he's never going to be comfortable in the pocket. NEVER!!! What he needs to do is watch Tom Brady for one game. Drop back, find the open receiver, and let it rip, all in one fluid motion. None of this patting the ball, taking a ton of time to find the open guy, panicking in the pocket, and being vulnerable to the blitz crap. Again, in one fluid quick motion, drop back, find the guy, let her rip!! He simply has to change his nasty habits if he has any hope of being a top QB in the league. Can he do it? It remains to be seen, but Joe Gibbs is giving him a chance and he needs to take that chance and show him that he's worthy of it. If he continually refuses to change his habits, then he'll end up as a perennial back up QB jumping from team to team throughout his career but never living up to his potential.

It's funny how the fans perspective on things always change. Just a few months ago people were gunning for Gibbs' head just because he didn't select Mike Williams. Now, the ones that like Ramsey are either saying "give him time" or "he needs better protection" or "he's got potential". To age myself, and to quote a famous commercial from the 80's, "Where's the beef"? Ramsey is our starter, and we're going to sink or swim with him this year. But, his leash is getting shorter and shorter, and Gibbs long term plans for this franchise should no longer be questioned. Gibbs knows what he's doing, and when he's not 100% convinced of a persons ability to lead the team back to winning ways, people should not ask why the hell not? They should merely accept it, and let him do his job. Even after one pre-season game, I'll bet all those "I want Mike Williams" guys are going to silently transition over to a "This guy Campbell has some potential" type of guy.

Just my .02
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Postby DEHog » Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:03 am

Some great point JP...I think you and I were alone last year in defending Brunell. Again it doesn't surprise me to see him playing well. That said I'm rooting for Ramsey, but it just doesn't hurt to have a Vet on the bench, all the while the rookie can take it all in!!
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Postby sch1977 » Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:48 am

I agree with most of your points. However, I still dont think Brunell has what it takes to get us to the next level. Although, from what I saw of P Ram last night, he may not either. Jason Campbell did impress me, but I know it will take a year or two before he can lead this team. I did not fault Gibbs for taking Williams. CB was our most pressing need, and Rogers will be solid if not spectacular for a long time.
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Postby JPFair » Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:56 am

I agree with most of your points. However, I still dont think Brunell has what it takes to get us to the next level


Did I say that he does?

In any event, I'd like to see Brunell improve tremendously over last year, but I'd also like to see Ramsey improve as well. Having an improved Ramsey in there as a starter, and an improved Brunell in as backup is a good situation to be in. That's all I'm indicating.
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:33 am

Where are all the Mike Williams guys now?


It's funny how the fans perspective on things always change. Just a few months ago people were gunning for Gibbs' head just because he didn't select Mike Williams.


You're point is moot. If we took Mike we wouldn't have gotten Carlos Rogers who is a cornerback, Jason Campbell would have still been available.

I was a Mike Williams guy and still am, I'm satisfied with who we got but I think you got it mixed up.
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Postby Redskins4Life » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:02 am

Yeah JP I agree with ChrisLuvaLuva. What does Mike Williams necessarily have to do with the selection of Jason Campbell or not?

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Postby BringThePain! » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:04 am

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
Where are all the Mike Williams guys now?


It's funny how the fans perspective on things always change. Just a few months ago people were gunning for Gibbs' head just because he didn't select Mike Williams.


You're point is moot. If we took Mike we wouldn't have gotten Carlos Rogers who is a cornerback, Jason Campbell would have still been available.

I was a Mike Williams guy and still am, I'm satisfied with who we got but I think you got it mixed up.


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Postby ii7-V7 » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:07 am

:hmm: Thats what I was wondering. I agree with your points. I wasn't one of the few upset by us picking Rogers over Williams, but Campbell has nothing to do with it.

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Postby JPFair » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:09 am

No, I don't beleive my point is moot. Take a look back at all the threads the day after the NFL Draft, and you'll see a lot of people complaining that we should have taken Mike Williams with our first pick. Even though we needed a CB, people were biased in favor of taking Mike Williams. As a result, people were lambasting Gibbs for trading up to get Campbell, having two picks in the first round, and still not being able to somehow get Mike Williams. And, my real point, is not so much whether Mike Williams is a good player, but rather, it's whether or not Gibbs did the right thing by having two picks in the first round and selecting who we did. The reality of it, is that had we really wanted Williams we could have had him. But, Gibbs elected to go with Rogers instead.

People were saying that Gibbs had lost his eye for talent by letting Williams go, in spite of the fact that we got Rogers. If you don't beleive me, check the threads from April 23 through May 4th. You'll see a LOT of anger over Gibbs not selecting Williams in the first round. Those people were angry because they felt we were comfortable at QB and didn't need to upgrade our Defense as much as we needed to upgrade our offense. NOW, those people are saying we did the right thing by getting Rogers. Plus, those people will be a little slower to criticise Gibbs trading up to get two picks in the first round because they see the potential for Campbell, and the need for a "Gibbs guy" to get primed and ready to take over in a few years, if not sooner. In addition, those people that criticized Gibbs for his Draft day moves are now seeing VERY CLEARLY why there is still some doubt about Ramsey. I'm not saying that Ramsey is a bust, but until Gibbs is completely sold on him, he will continue to make the moves he feels necessary. I respectfully disagree with your assertion about me getting things mixed up. I think I'm crystal clear on the point that I'm making, and that point is this: Gibbs did the absolute best possible thing for this team by selecting Rogers instead of Williams, as well as trading up to get Campbell. Today it's a different story because people have seen how Ramsey performed last night, and the public are quick to forget how much they were saying that Ramsey was the answer to all our problems. Now, they're not so sure. I myself, am not convinced that Ramsey will ever improve, but I think he deserves the chance that he's being given. Whatever happens, I support Coach Gibbs 1000%.

To prove my point, I'll try and dig up some of those post-draft day posts to highlight my point.
Last edited by JPFair on Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby JPFair » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:30 am

Compare the pre-draft posts to the post draft posts, and you'll see how everyone was saying we should get Mike Williams at any cost. You'll see that a lot of people were suggesting that Gibbs was doing the wrong thing by not taking Williams when they had the chance. It's THOSE people that are now saying that maybe he did the right thing by getting a CB instead of Williams. It's those people who were saying that we screwed up by taking Cambpell instead of someone else. I realize that Cambpell was available in either scenario, but a lot of people were against picking him cuz Ramsey was supposedly entrenched as our starting QB for years to come. Suddenly, all these guys who have Ramsey in their screen name in some way, or any other Ramsey lover are starting to be a little more comfortable with the way Joe Gibbs is thinking. The "Mike Williams" guys that I'm referring to are the ones who questioned whether Gibbs knew what he was doing, and were perplexed by his intentions. Even though Campbell was available, and Williams wasn't, with the late first round pick, because Gibbs went with Rogers and not Williams, people were accusing Gibbs of not being in touch with the teams needs.

*still perusing the post-draft picks to highight my point*
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Postby JPFair » Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:36 am


Yeah JP I agree with ChrisLuvaLuva. What does Mike Williams necessarily have to do with the selection of Jason Campbell or not?



Williams has NOTHING to do with the selection of Jason Campbell, but it has EVERYTHING to do with what people were saying about Joe Gibbs after the draft. The people that wanted Mike Williams were criticizing Gibbs, not Campbell, for EVERYTHING we did in the draft. People were saying that we should pick Williams FIRST and then address our CB needs with the second pick. Very few people, IF ANY, were saying that we should select Carlos Rogers with our first pick. However, there was a lot of people questioning Gibbs when we passed up on Mike Williams.

Campbell has nothing to do with it, really. What my point is, is that people were quick to pass judgement on Gibbs for not picking Williams with the 6th pick, and said that we shouldn't have traded up to get Campbell. There's no nexus between Williams and Campbell, but before the draft people were praying we'd get Williams, and never for one minute thought that somewhere in the mix was the possibility of getting a QB in the first round. People that wanted Mike Williams never saw the need to even draft a QB anywhere in the draft, much less the first round. They were too sold on the idea of getting Williams first and then Defensive help after that, when all the while Gibbs had a well thought out plan in place.
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Postby hkHog » Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:17 am

I understand what JP is saying, people said the draft was deep at CB so we should take Williams and grab a CB with our second first rounder. Gibbs didn't take the bait though simply because he wanted Campbell so much. We NEEDED a CB so because Gibbs wanted Campbell that required us to pass on Williams with our first pick. That makes sense.

JP, I agree with your points about Ramsey. He definately looked tentative and he ceratinly had some happy feet. However, I must disagree with your assertion that he is refusing to learn. He improved his weaknesses (being indecisive, holding the ball too long, and making bad throws) last year and he played some solid games at the end of the season. Last night marked a REGRESSION, he has shown he can overcome those weaknesses to an extent and I think he will show significant progress over the next few weeks. He actually calmed down a bit and made a few smart plays (not great plays mind you, but smart plays) as the game went on. He avoided the blitz nicely a couple of times and in the past he has often looked like a deer in headlights in those situations. He didn't have a good game at all but we must give him some time before we say he is beyond improvement. I think he will always suffer those shortcomings and I agree that he doesn't have the best football IQ but he showed improvement last year. I think it's unfair to say he isn't interested in improving his weaknesses. I don't know if he'll ever get over them but I think that last night we saw the old Ramsey and I think you will see better performances out of him over the rest of the preseason.

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Postby JPFair » Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:26 am

As I said I would, I went back and perused the post-draft posts in the "NFL Draft" forum. To establish the point that I'm making, I've taken several posts and am posting them below. You should be able to see the point that I'm making, and the trend that was in force at the time. Immediately following the draft, people were obviously angry at the fact that Gibbs selected Rogers instead of Williams, and took Campbell with the pick that we got from the trade with Denver. You should be able to sense from the below posts that people were not concerned with getting a QB in the draft, all they wanted was Mike Williams. It doesnt' matter if Campbell was still available and Williams was gone, but what matters is that they criticised Gibbs for taking Rogers with the 1st and even called the move to get Campbell a "bonehead" move. So, while not specifically critcizing Carlos Rogers, they questioned whether Gibbs knew what he was doing by ending up with Rogers and Campbell as our two picks in the 1st round. Many people, if not the majority of people, thought that we should have gone with Williams instead of Rogers, and anything else was just wrong!! Those are the people that were comfortable with Ramsey as our future. And because they were angry at not taking Williams with the 6th, they were even more angry with taking Campbell instead of the next best available WR. In short, they criticised our moves in the first round, because they felt we should have gone with Williams first, and then the next available CB. Because we didn't get Williams, it seemed like every move Gibbs made was a "bonehead" move, when in fact, the drafting of Campbell is becoming more and more significant as time goes by.

Here are some post-draft posts to support my point:

I here you. I am not furious though. I am just depressed. And I really mean that. I am freckin depressed. I have been looking at mock drafts and looking foward to this day for months. I never thought it would turn out like this. This is just plain sad. God. And all these posters who think Gibbs has "a plan" like he is some unfallable god are fools. This is the worst "single" day in my 15 years as a Redskins fan.


D-Mac @ 6-5 and M. Williams @ 6-5 lined up in the red zone w/ Moss in the slot. Cooley at TE and Portis in the backfield.........AAAAHHHHH

I need another beer before the Klitchko fight comes on.

I'm going to have nightmares because we could have gone DB at 25, 114 ...ah hell the rest of the picks also.



Im not happy at all about missing out on Mike Williams.. Passing him up was just plan stupid!
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Jake wrote:
Leading up to it, I really want Mike Williams if he is available at the 9th pick. I think he would be a relative steal if he drops to us.

I have liked him since his freshman and I just have a feeling there is nothing wrong with his work ethic. I think it would pay off real well to select him.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

You and I both. Im going to drop off around 2pm, hopefully Ill see something that'll make my day.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:


Great!!!! O God!!! Please let Mike Williams fall!

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Im going to cry if we dont get Williams.

Great Natale wrote:

So only the Vikings now stand in the way in getting Williams. Hopefully they pick Williamson

Redskins4life wrote:

THEYYY TOOOK WILLIAAAAMSOOOON!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG IM SO FRIGGIN EXCITED MY HEARTS ABOUT TO JUMP OUT OF MY CHEST>.........TAKE WILLIAMS GIBBS PASS UP ROLLE OR ROGERS

I'm just worried about somebody trading up to get Williams before we can pick him

Chrid Luva Luva wrote:

Those faggots better pick Mike1!!!!!

Here's the one I like the most:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

WE DONT NEEEDD RODGERS!!!!!!!!!! WE NEED WILLIAMS!!!!!!! WE HAVE CB'S!!!! ILL PLAY CB!!!



And that is just the draft day post. So, you can sort of see the anger in people because we didn't pick Williams. I guarantee you that just about everyone of the above posters are no longer that angry about how Gibbs handled the draft. In fact, they should be thrilled that we got a great CB as well as a QB with a ton of potential.

CLL, I agree with you that Campbell has nothing to do with not getting Williams, but here's the link to an interesting thread to highlight my point. In the thread, you'll see your own remarks where you express anger over the selection of Rogers instead of Williams. In fact, to quote you, you said "We don't need Rogers, we need Williams". I respectfully disagree. What we "need" is an excellent CB and a "Joe Gibbs" type of QB. That's what we got!!!
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Postby JPFair » Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:33 am

hkHog wrote:

He didn't have a good game at all but we must give him some time before we say he is beyond improvement.


hk,

I agree with you 100%. Although, I think the negatives that we saw in Ramsey last night are things that have always been present with him, even in his good games. To that extent, that is where I think he refuses to change his bad habits. In spite of everything that's been told to him, he constantly tap dances in the pocket and spends too much time trying to find the open guy. Like you, I fully expect him to improve as time goes one, but the things that he needs to improve on the most, are things that he has shown in every game he's played in, pre-season or otherwise. He has improved tremendously over the last two years, but IMO, he needs to make a few fundamental improvments that require him to banish certain habits of his. I'm confident he can, because if anyone can get him to, it'll be Joe Gibbs. But, my point all along has been that until Gibbs is 100% confident in Ramsey being the one, then he should definitely keep one eye on Jason Campbell. Ramsey, on the other hand, should take nothing for granted and learn to rid himself of his bad habits. If he does that, and it's a big IF, then he can very well succeed. We'll wait and see!!
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Postby JPFair » Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:55 am

Chris Luva Luva,

I was a Mike Williams guy and still am, I'm satisfied with who we got but I think you got it mixed up.


If that's the case, on Sat April 23rd, 2005, why did you post the following:

WE DONT NEEEDD RODGERS!!!!!!!!!! WE NEED WILLIAMS!!!!!!! WE HAVE CB'S!!!! ILL PLAY CB!!!


So, I think it's not ME who has it mixed up. With all due respect, my point is not moot, but rather, it's crystal clear that people were lambasting Gibbs for passing up on Williams at #9 while having Cambell in his mind at #25. It's starting to look like a better move after all, isn't it? And to think, we also got a good young QB who might fit into Gibbs overall scheme in the first round as well. What a great draft!!
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