Where are all the Mike Williams guys now?

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Postby Brandon777 » Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:12 pm

DEHog wrote:Some great point JP...I think you and I were alone last year in defending Brunell. Again it doesn't surprise me to see him playing well. That said I'm rooting for Ramsey, but it just doesn't hurt to have a Vet on the bench, all the while the rookie can take it all in!!


Don't forget me. I was one of the few Brunell supporters here. My first post ever here was in regards to my lack of confidence in Ramsey.
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Postby Brandon777 » Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:27 pm

I was and still am a Mike Williams guy. I thought he would compliment our small speedy guys perfectly and be an awesome possession receiver and red zone threat. However, Carlos Rogers seems to be a good character guy and has the potential to be a very good CB. He was also my first choice at CB. I liked him over Rolle and Pacman.

I was very upset on draft day because I really wanted Mike Williams on this team and didn't think he would slip to us. When he did and we didn't take him, I was pissed. But that was several months ago and everyone who was pissed has now chilled out.
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:07 pm

First of all, it's only one game into the pre-season. Second of all, you're missing the entire point. Look at it this way, show me some solid proof that we didn't need a good, young, "Joe Gibbs" type of QB to select at #25 instead of the "next best WR" since we didn't get Williams at #6?



THis makes no sense. Mike would have never been choosen with Jasons draft pick.
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Postby Texas Hog » Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:15 pm

Brandon777 wrote:I was and still am a Mike Williams guy. I thought he would compliment our small speedy guys perfectly and be an awesome possession receiver and red zone threat. However, Carlos Rogers seems to be a good character guy and has the potential to be a very good CB. He was also my first choice at CB. I liked him over Rolle and Pacman.

I was very upset on draft day because I really wanted Mike Williams on this team and didn't think he would slip to us. When he did and we didn't take him, I was pissed. But that was several months ago and everyone who was pissed has now chilled out.


Well said and ditto! =D>
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:24 pm

Let me clarify my point for you.

I dont care about what you're trying to prove in this thread. What irritated me was that you lumped people who liked Mike Williams and people who bashed the Skins together.

I charged you in the last post and I charge you again, find a post where I blasted the Skins.

When I said "those fagoots better pick Mike", that was said in jest. I was fooling around as I always do, the pick wasn't even made so how was I angry at that point?

When I said "we didn't need Rogers, Ill play CB", more joking from me. Did I seriously mean that I could play cb for the skins out of anger? :roll:

I didn't feel like we NEEDED Rogers. If you pulled more quotes from me you'd see that I felt Harris would be adequate and that WR was more of a need and CB was a want.

Explain to me again how the picking up Williams instead of Carlos and selecting Jason Campbell would have not had people hate on Gibbs?

Show me where I disagreed with the selection of Campbell. Gibbs was yelled at by the media for getting Campbell moreso than not getting Williams. I didn't care that we got Campbell and never said a bad word about him.
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:46 pm

JPFair wrote:Williams has NOTHING to do with the selection of Jason Campbell, but it has EVERYTHING to do with what people were saying about Joe Gibbs after the draft. The people that wanted Mike Williams were criticizing Gibbs, not Campbell, for EVERYTHING we did in the draft.


Ok, I see what you're saying. However my entire issue with you using my quotes is that I do not fall under the people you're speaking of in the above statement. When you used my quotes, you were using them to support your opinion above. Pulling my quotes from way back then was stupid. You took them out of context and you weren't speaking to me in realtime. I was speaking to Justice Hog throughout the draft and he was a Mike fan too, he was upset.

I never said anything negative about Campbell.
I never said anything negative about Gibbs.
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Postby JPFair » Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:30 pm

O.K. Let me clarify my point!!

I dont care about what you're trying to prove in this thread.


I'm glad you don't care, because I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just trying to talk football. This isn't a contest to see who could prove anyone right or wrong, it's about talking about football. And, if you read my post, you'll see that all I was saying was that there's a difference in the way people view the draft now than they did back on April 25th. As Brandon777 said "That was then and this is now". A perfect point exactly!! Back then, a LOT of people were angry that we selected Rogers instead of Williams, and as I said, those people that wanted Williams thought we should go with a Big WR at # 25 but instead we went with Campbell. They weren't angry at Campbell, they were angry at not getting the next best available WR.

I charged you in the last post and I charge you again, find a post where I blasted the Skins.


O.K. I consider myself charged. However, first you have to explain to me what "charging" someone is. If I understand it correctly, I am charging YOU to show me where I said you DID bash the Skins. You told me I had it mixed up, and I told you that maybe you had it mixed up. I said in my post to compare the post draft posts to the sentiment around the boards now, and you'll see a different attittude. Your post where you said "We don't need Rogers, We need Williams" is a perfect example. You were angry at the time, but now you're more comfortable with what we did in the draft. At least, that's my interpretation of what you're saying. What's the big deal with that? I have no problem with that, however, I was just pointing out that the "Mike Williams" guys are now more comfortable about how we handled the draft, whereas back then, they were quite ticked off. Again, I charge you to go back to the week after the draft and see the posts then. It doesn't matter whether it was said out of anger or emotion, it is what it is.

I didn't feel like we NEEDED Rogers. If you pulled more quotes from me you'd see that I felt Harris would be adequate and that WR was more of a need and CB was a want.


Again, my exact point. People, yourself included, wanted us to get Williams first, and then a CB. When we got a CB, people wanted the next available Big WR. When they got Campbell, some people were downright angry. I never said YOU were angry, but notice some of the quotes where people said Gibbs has "no plan" for this team.

Explain to me again how the picking up Williams instead of Carlos and selecting Jason Campbell would have not had people hate on Gibbs?


I never explained it in the first place, so how could I possibly do it again?

Show me where I disagreed with the selection of Campbell


Show me where I said you did?

Pulling my quotes from way back then was stupid


Why is that? Are you saying that what you were saying back then was not how you really felt, and that you posted things that you didn't really mean to say? I mean, you post what you think, I hope. And, when you posted "We don't need Rogers, we need Williams" one can only deduce that that's what you think. And, as my post points out, that attitude has changed because as you even said in your first post, you're satisfied with who we got, yet on the day you said "We don't need Rogers". Bingo, there's my point. Things change over the course of a few months and they see the need for certain things that Joe Gibbs saw way back then.

I never said anything negative about Campbell.
I never said anything negative about Gibbs.


Nobody said you did, certainly not me. I know you're one of the more loyal Redskins fans here, and I don't doubt your support for the team. However, if you look at some of those quotes, you'll see real anger at Gibbs for taking Rogers instead of Williams.

I was speaking to Justice Hog throughout the draft and he was a Mike fan too, he was upset.


I hate to sound redundant, but once again, you're highlighting my point. People were angry back then, but they're not now. That is my entire point. I said that it's funny how people change their perspective on things, and that's a classic example. People, yourself and allegedly Justice Hog "were angry". Are you angry now? I rest my case!!!

If you really want me to, I can go back to those posts and pick out the ones where people were bashing Gibbs for selecting Rogers instead of Williams and ultimately taking Campbell instead of the next best WR, but I doubt very much I'll find one from you. But, if you'd like me to go back and post the ones that actually DID bash Gibbs and the rest of the FO for it, I'll be more than happy if that's what it'll take to make you take this a little less personal.
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:11 pm

My whole thing was that when you used my quotes it made it seem like I was one of those people who bashed Gibbs you just lumped the Mike likers with the Gibbs bashers. What you wrote wasn't that clear at 1st.
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Postby JPFair » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:33 pm

Your quotes were but a small portion of a greater number of quotes to highlight the difference in opinions from back then and how they are now. Simple as that.
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Postby John Manfreda » Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:23 pm

Carlos Rogers hasn't even been in a practice yet. So far Mike Williams has the upper hand. Do ur research. Carlos Rogers injury looks like its been an old injury which means he is injury prone. Don't boost about the draft. Rothersberger looked horrible in the preseason last year and Eli looked good. I have a question who do u think is better. Preseason doesn't mean jack.

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Postby 1niksder » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:07 am

John Manfreda wrote:Carlos Rogers hasn't even been in a practice yet. So far Mike Williams has the upper hand. Do ur research. Carlos Rogers injury looks like its been an old injury which means he is injury prone. Don't boost about the draft. Rothersberger looked horrible in the preseason last year and Eli looked good. I have a question who do u think is better. Preseason doesn't mean jack.

Rodgers went thru full workouts today with the first team.

I did my research

Now onto CLL and JPFair....
JP you can't back up the things that Chris says you said because you never said it.

Chris doesn't feels he should not be grouped in with the William's people that bashed Gibbs because he wasn't with them and didn't do that.

If I'm right so far, then this thread was about the reaction to the draft then and how some feel now.

However we have strayed.... let's start over

JPFair wrote:Just a few points from my perspective:

1- If nothing else, Joe Gibbs will be vindicated for selecting Campbell in the 1st round. Everyone who questioned why he hasn't had the utmost of confidence in Ramsey should now be thanking Gibbs for seeing something that doesn't make him convinced yet. Ramsey will still get the upper hand at starting, but Ramsey should take nothing for granted.


The pick of JC made perfect sense when it was made - Ramsey and Brunell were both shaky and Matt was Matt. Moving into the 1st round was the only way to get the guy he wanted

JPFair wrote:2- It really does boil down to one thing with Ramsey: He is atrocious in the pocket. He looks uncomfortable, indecisive, tries to do too much, doesn't know what the right thing is, and refuses to change his bad habits. He has no choice but to change his bad habits, because he's not a mobile QB, yet he steadfastly refuses to heed the Coaches advice about how to be comfortable in the pocket. Put it this way, he's not a good student of the game. And, in this business and at his age, you'd damn well better be a good student of the game.

Brunell may turnout to be a capable backup for Ramsey which will give Jason time to develope.

JPFair wrote:3- All those people that say "Brunell sucks" and he's "washed up" should not proclaim his career over. One bad year does not a career make. He has several good years under his belt, and one bad year does not automatically make him a washed up QB. Yes, he sucked last year, but so did a lot of Redskins players. Does he deserve to start after one good showing in the first pre-season game? Absolutely not, but just like Ramsey shouldn't take anything for granted, I would hope Brunell strives to be the best QB he can possibly be. Irregardless of his critics, and how many people think he "sucks", Brunell is a class act, he's a professional, and ultimately he will be vindicated, whether that be as a starter or a backup remains to be seen.

He'll be the backup if we are lucky, still in this day and age he'll be needed sooner or later (it would be nice not to miss a beat). My question is how injured was he last year. He's competative was he hiding something (they're famous for that in Jacksonville and he was here for ever)

JPFair wrote:4- Where are all the "Joe Gibbs is washed up for not taking Mike Williams" guys now?

Most that wanted Mike Williams didn't call Gibbs washed up, most were confused and disappointed.
You are refering to the small band of nutjobs that will always blame the FO for every move that differs from them (it doesn't matter that the suck at Madden and FF - they know it all). They only come out when there is something to complain about.

JPFair wrote:5- Ramsey will get better as the pre-season goes on, but he's never going to be comfortable in the pocket. NEVER!!! What he needs to do is watch Tom Brady for one game. Drop back, find the open receiver, and let it rip, all in one fluid motion. None of this patting the ball, taking a ton of time to find the open guy, panicking in the pocket, and being vulnerable to the blitz crap. Again, in one fluid quick motion, drop back, find the guy, let her rip!! He simply has to change his nasty habits if he has any hope of being a top QB in the league. Can he do it? It remains to be seen, but Joe Gibbs is giving him a chance and he needs to take that chance and show him that he's worthy of it. If he continually refuses to change his habits, then he'll end up as a perennial back up QB jumping from team to team throughout his career but never living up to his potential.

It's funny how the fans perspective on things always change. Just a few months ago people were gunning for Gibbs' head just because he didn't select Mike Williams. Now, the ones that like Ramsey are either saying "give him time" or "he needs better protection" or "he's got potential". To age myself, and to quote a famous commercial from the 80's, "Where's the beef"? Ramsey is our starter, and we're going to sink or swim with him this year. But, his leash is getting shorter and shorter, and Gibbs long term plans for this franchise should no longer be questioned. Gibbs knows what he's doing, and when he's not 100% convinced of a persons ability to lead the team back to winning ways, people should not ask why the hell not? They should merely accept it, and let him do his job. Even after one pre-season game, I'll bet all those "I want Mike Williams" guys are going to silently transition over to a "This guy Campbell has some potential" type of guy.

Just my .02

This is Ramsey's year, what he does with it is up to him.
Joe Gibbs isn't sure how this year will turn out but it appears he has planned for the worst.

As far as the fans perspective goes for some that changes from day to day.
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:23 am

Image


You understood what I was saying, I thought my cries went unheard. :lol:
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Postby JPFair » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:09 am

If I'm right so far, then this thread was about the reaction to the draft then and how some feel now.



Yep!

The pick of JC made perfect sense when it was made - Ramsey and Brunell were both shaky and Matt was Matt. Moving into the 1st round was the only way to get the guy he wanted


This is sort of correct, but as I pointed out, if you look at some of the post draft threads, you'll see copious amounts of anger over the selection of Rogers over Williams, as well as anger over the selection of JC over the next best "big WR". It's all in the threads, I'm only going by what people post. And, judging by CLL's reaction to being quoted to highlight my point, I shouldn't do so because any post-draft posts should not be considered because they were made in the heat of the moment, and as such, lacked any type of credibility or veracity. However, I'm of the opinion that when people post something, that that's exactly what they mean.

Brunell may turnout to be a capable backup for Ramsey which will give Jason time to develope


I don't think anyone could argue with that, however, it does make the JC selection a lot more palpable to those that were angered over it, and yes, there were some that were angered over it.

He'll be the backup if we are lucky, still in this day and age he'll be needed sooner or later (it would be nice not to miss a beat). My question is how injured was he last year. He's competative was he hiding something (they're famous for that in Jacksonville and he was here for ever)


Another point that I completely agree with, with the one possible exception of that he'll be the backup whether "we're" lucky or not, I feel he'll be the backup if the coaches want him to be.


You are refering to the small band of nutjobs that will always blame the FO for every move that differs from them (it doesn't matter that the suck at Madden and FF - they know it all). They only come out when there is something to complain about.


You hit the proverbial nail on the head, however, as I was "charged" to show posts where he bashed Gibbs, I charged CLL to show me a post where I grouped HIM in this 'small band of nutjobs". In fact, the only reason for my 'inclusion' of CLL's quotes were in direct rebuttal to the assertion that I had things "mixed up". My points were never "mixed up". He said " we didn't need Rogers, we need Williims" and I beleived that to be his point of view. In future, I guess I should wait a few months to determine if what is said is actually what he means. However, as I pointed out, yes, I was referring to that small band of nutjobs who will never be happy. For instance, take a look at Manfredas post. I say no more!

This is Ramsey's year, what he does with it is up to him.


Exactly what I meant when I said that we're going to sink or swim with Ramsey this year.

Joe Gibbs isn't sure how this year will turn out but it appears he has planned for the worst.


As any good coach would! And, although it's only been one game, but judging by our play in the Carolina game and the Ravens scrimmage we whould consider ourselves lucky that Gibbs has planned accordingly.

As far as the fans perspective goes for some that changes from day to day.


And my point is finally made!!!
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:22 am

JPFair wrote:And, judging by CLL's reaction to being quoted to highlight my point, I shouldn't do so because any post-draft posts should not be considered because they were made in the heat of the moment, and as such, lacked any type of credibility or veracity. However, I'm of the opinion that when people post something, that that's exactly what they mean.


So you understood redskin1's entire reply but failed to understand this when peice...
redskin1 wrote:Chris doesn't feels he should not be grouped in with the William's people that bashed Gibbs because he wasn't with them and didn't do that.

:roll:

Im not going back on what I said, I wanted Mike and I still would take him if they'd trade for Brunell :lol: . The only thing I said was that you took one thing out of context and that was me refferring to the Skins as "faggots". I dont even need to defend and wont waste my time doing so.

I wanted Mike, I was dissapointed we didn't get him. Im happy with Rogers, Im elated with Jason. My wants or opinions have not changed, I accepted what the Skins did and feel that they did whats best for the team. I refuse to rant about something I can't change, Im going to root for Rogers even though I wanted Mike. My next avatar is going to be of Rogers.

However DO NOT group me in with Gibbs bashers, this is the reoccuring theme that you keep failing to miss.
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Postby SkinsLaVar » Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:22 am

We needed Mike Williams, but we needed a corner even more.

If Smoot didn't leave us, everything would be fine and jolly, but he left...So things didn't go as planned.

If we had picked up Williams, our offense would improve a lot in the redzone situations. Afterall, Williams is a 6'5 target, not very hard to miss.

But then again, on defense, we were a car missing a wheel. Offenses would pick us apart and we would give up way too many points, like you have seen in the preseason game with Ade Jimoh shmo playing corner.

Carlos Rogers is a top CB, he is the new wheel. Now we have a car with all 4 of it's wheels. Some shiny rims would be nice, but you have to have all 4 wheels first...in order to go forward.

My 2 cents
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