Crawling into the Endzone

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Re: Crawling into the Endzone

Postby TexasCowboy » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:05 am

^^ kinda hard to take one seriously when all he keeps doing is changing the narrative while ignoring the real facts facts

especially when?? he spouted and admittedly denied rule 7(a) citing "it's not a rule in the NFL" yep, He said that then turns around and now stats that 7(a) is a pro rule, ah, and since he wants to get into the rule of dead ball from scrimmage, which cements a catch vs non-catch let's look at the whole thing shall

Item 1. Player Going to the Ground. A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

Item 2. Sideline Catches. If a player goes to the ground out-of-bounds (with or without contact by an opponent) in the process of making a catch at the sideline, he must maintain complete and continuous control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, or the pass is incomplete.

Item 3. End Zone Catches. The requirements for a catch in the end zone are the same as the requirements for a catch in the field of play.

Note: In the field of play, if a catch of a forward pass has been completed, after which contact by a defender causes the ball to become loose before the runner is down by contact, it is a fumble, and the ball remains alive. In the end zone, the same action is a touchdown, since the receiver completed the catch beyond the goal line prior to the loss of possession, and the ball is dead when the catch is completed.

Now it gets interesting please note the following

Item 4. Ball Touches Ground. If the ball touches the ground after the player secures control of it, it is a catch, provided that the player continues to maintain control.

last but not least

ARTICLE 4. INCOMPLETE PASS

Any forward pass (legal or illegal) is incomplete and the ball is dead immediately if the pass strikes the ground or goes out of bounds. An incomplete pass is a loss of down, and the ball returns to the previous spot.

5 items that state what a "Catch" in the NFL is?

Time to read between the lines and look at the words used

* IF the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete.

* he must maintain control of the ball

* when a runner is out of bounds or declares himself down by falling to the ground rule 7(e)


* when a runner is contacted by a defensive player and touches the ground with any part of his body
other than his hands or feet. The ball is dead the instant the runner touches the ground. A runner
touching the ground with his hands or feet while in the grasp of an opponent may continue to
advance rule 7(a)

Oh, and did I mention the NFL admitted to rigging games?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6GJcOS1dD4

In conclusion

Image

^^^ this was a catch

Image

^^^ so was this
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Re: Crawling into the Endzone

Postby DarthMonk » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:04 pm

The thing I said is not the NFL rule is your MISQUOTING OF 7A.
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Re: Crawling into the Endzone

Postby DarthMonk » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:05 pm

It has become apparent that at least 1 long-time fan of the NFL who frequents this message board is not aware of the fact that NFL rule 7a mandates contact by a defender as opposed to the NCAA rule which says that once a ball carrier falls down, the ball is dead whether or not he has been touched by a defender.

Since it would be terrible for a fellow board member to walk around thinking the NFL rule is the same as the NCAA rule, I have decided to post the corresponding rules and point out the differences - differences every fan should know.

Here is NFL rule 7a:

RULE 7 Ball in Play, Dead Ball, Scrimmage
Section 1 Ball in Play
Article 1: Live Ball. After the ball has been declared ready for play, it becomes a live ball when it is legally
snapped or legally kicked (a free kick or fair catch kick). The ball remains dead if it is snapped or kicked
before it is made ready for play.
Section 2 Dead Ball
Article 1: Dead Ball Declared. An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended:
(a) when a runner is contacted by a defensive player and touches the ground with any part of his body
other than his hands or feet. The ball is dead the instant the runner touches the ground. A runner
touching the ground with his hands or feet while in the grasp of an opponent may continue to
advance; or


Note the highlighted requirement of contact by a defensive player in rule 7a.

There are exceptions to the "when a runner is contacted by a defensive player" requirement. They appear in rules 7c and 7d, not in 7a:

(c) when a quarterback immediately drops to his knee (or simulates dropping to his knee) behind the line
of scrimmage; or
(d) when a runner declares himself down by sliding feet first on the ground.


An NFL player can also kneel in the endzone and the ball is dead without contact by a defensive player.

Things are different in the NCAA. Here is the corresponding rule 4.3b

Ball Declared Dead
ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle
or declare it dead:
a. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after
touching the uprights or crossbar; when a ball carrier is out of bounds;
or when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped.
When in question, the ball is dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II).
b. When any part of the ball carrier’s body, except his hand or foot, touches
the ground or when the ball carrier is tackled or otherwise falls and loses
possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his
body, except his hand or foot


Note the lack of a mandate for contact by a defender.

Thus, in the NFL, by rule 7a, contact by a defensive player is required for a ball to be declared dead while this is not so in the NCAA by rule 4.3b.

Note that 4.3b has an exception too:

[Exception: The ball remains alive when
an offensive player has simulated a kick or at the snap is in position to
kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate. The ball may be kicked,
passed or advanced by rule]


In other words, in the NCAA (and in the NFL for that matter), the holder on a placekick does not create a dead ball by receiving a snap while on one knee.
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Re: Crawling into the Endzone

Postby DarthMonk » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:10 pm

TexasCowboy wrote:Image

^^^ so was this


You just proved yourself wrong twice and you are on record as saying James did not score because he was down BY CONTACT before crossing the goal line.

This is clearly wrong ................... by rule 7a !!
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Re: Crawling into the Endzone

Postby TexasCowboy » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:49 am

The thing you said was 7 (a) didn't exist as an NFL rule and kept calling out the college rule which is 4.3 (b) as for my commentary which by the way has been consistently right throughout this entire drawn out conversation. Is that the Player is down when his body strikes the turf, and doesn't necessarily need to make contact with a defender in order for this to be considered so

NFL rule 7 (e) when a runner declares himself down by falling to the ground, making no effort to advance

Rule (a) which you now want to quote spells it quickly if you actually take the time to read it (which you clearly haven't)

when a runner is contacted by a defensive player and touches the ground with any part of his body
other than his hands or feet. The ball is dead the instant the runner touches the ground.


Image

Dez clearly made contact with the defender even if inadvertently (not intentional) still makes contact with the defender

[img]https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/5Ziv5UnF1nhea791HieOtDZfLII=/400x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9887211/notd.0.gif[/img

The James catch you can file under 7 (e) even though the defender does make contact after the fact, his body at that point is still considered down once again under rule (a) let's go back to the rule and see how this can be

A runner touching the ground with his hands or feet while in the grasp of an opponent may continue to
advance; or (b) when a runner is held or otherwise restrained so that his forward progress ends;


wait, let's back that up a sec

when a runner touching the ground with his hands or feet while in the grasp of an opponent may continue to
advance


I didn't see James nor Bryant using his hands nor feet to secure his position of grounding I saw legs, elbows, knees, and use of gravity to try and propel him
beyond, which fails to matter but I thought I'd throw psychics in there since we are talking about the rate of free fall

All this which speaks against the very argument you want to make is going to force us to believe that in fact, it wasn't a catch simply because the NFL said so
the very same NFL, who admitted to rigging games I don't think so not buying one word of it
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Re: Crawling into the Endzone

Postby DarthMonk » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:05 pm

TexasCowboy wrote:The thing you said was 7 (a) didn't exist as an NFL rule and kept calling out the college rule which is 4.3 (b) ...


Incorrect. Show me where I said 7a did not exist as an NFL rule.

What I said is YOU saying contact is NOT required is the college rule.

7a requires contact.

The pro rule and the college rule are different and you are on record as posting neither requires contact which is flat out factually wrong.
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Re: Crawling into the Endzone

Postby DarthMonk » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:05 pm

It has become apparent that at least 1 long-time fan of the NFL who frequents this message board is not aware of the fact that NFL rule 7a mandates contact by a defender as opposed to the NCAA rule which says that once a ball carrier falls down, the ball is dead whether or not he has been touched by a defender.

Since it would be terrible for a fellow board member to walk around thinking the NFL rule is the same as the NCAA rule, I have decided to post the corresponding rules and point out the differences - differences every fan should know.

Here is NFL rule 7a:

RULE 7 Ball in Play, Dead Ball, Scrimmage
Section 1 Ball in Play
Article 1: Live Ball. After the ball has been declared ready for play, it becomes a live ball when it is legally
snapped or legally kicked (a free kick or fair catch kick). The ball remains dead if it is snapped or kicked
before it is made ready for play.
Section 2 Dead Ball
Article 1: Dead Ball Declared. An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended:
(a) when a runner is contacted by a defensive player and touches the ground with any part of his body
other than his hands or feet. The ball is dead the instant the runner touches the ground. A runner
touching the ground with his hands or feet while in the grasp of an opponent may continue to
advance; or


Note the highlighted requirement of contact by a defensive player in rule 7a.

There are exceptions to the "when a runner is contacted by a defensive player" requirement. They appear in rules 7c and 7d, not in 7a:

(c) when a quarterback immediately drops to his knee (or simulates dropping to his knee) behind the line
of scrimmage; or
(d) when a runner declares himself down by sliding feet first on the ground.


An NFL player can also kneel in the endzone and the ball is dead without contact by a defensive player.

Things are different in the NCAA. Here is the corresponding rule 4.3b

Ball Declared Dead
ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle
or declare it dead:
a. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after
touching the uprights or crossbar; when a ball carrier is out of bounds;
or when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped.
When in question, the ball is dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II).
b. When any part of the ball carrier’s body, except his hand or foot, touches
the ground or when the ball carrier is tackled or otherwise falls and loses
possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his
body, except his hand or foot


Note the lack of a mandate for contact by a defender.

Thus, in the NFL, by rule 7a, contact by a defensive player is required for a ball to be declared dead while this is not so in the NCAA by rule 4.3b.

Note that 4.3b has an exception too:

[Exception: The ball remains alive when
an offensive player has simulated a kick or at the snap is in position to
kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate. The ball may be kicked,
passed or advanced by rule]


In other words, in the NCAA (and in the NFL for that matter), the holder on a placekick does not create a dead ball by receiving a snap while on one knee.
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Re: Crawling into the Endzone

Postby TexasCowboy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:12 am

Seriously? don't deny it Monk you know you said it trust me there was no typo in your comment especially when you wanted to keep getting away from rule 7 (A) by using the college rule 4.3 B as it's replacement. Let's move on shall we next comment

The following are not denied

Contact, football moves, Possession, feet in bounds, legs, arms, elbows, on the turf

and since this is established there is nothing left to see here
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Re: Crawling into the Endzone

Postby DarthMonk » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:33 am

TexasCowboy wrote:Seriously? don't deny it Monk you know you said it trust me there was no typo in your comment especially when you wanted to keep getting away from rule 7 (A) by using the college rule 4.3 B as it's replacement. Let's move on shall we next comment

The following are not denied

Contact, football moves, Possession, feet in bounds, legs, arms, elbows, on the turf

and since this is established there is nothing left to see here


I will show you. Here is the exchange:


TexasCowboy wrote:Show me where the ball hits the ground prior to his leg making contact with ground



DarthMonk wrote:
TexasCowboy wrote:Show me where the ball hits the ground prior to his leg making contact with ground


It doesn't and no one is saying it did.

Why does the leg contacting the ground matter? He isn't down the moment his knee touches since he has not been contacted by a defender yet.



TexasCowboy wrote:Because under the rule 7a is states the runner which is what a receiver is during the entire process from start to finish is classified as down the second a body part other than a hand or foot strikes
the turf



DarthMonk wrote:
TexasCowboy wrote:Because under the rule 7a is states the runner which is what a receiver is during the entire process from start to finish is classified as down the second a body part other than a hand or foot strikes
the turf


WRONG.

That is the college rule. You are leaving out the part that makes the pros different - CONTACT WITH A DEFENDER.

NFL rule you cited:

RULE 7 Ball in Play, Dead Ball, Scrimmage
Section 1 Ball in Play
Article 1: Live Ball. After the ball has been declared ready for play, it becomes a live ball when it is legally
snapped or legally kicked (a free kick or fair catch kick). The ball remains dead if it is snapped or kicked
before it is made ready for play.
Section 2 Dead Ball
Article 1: Dead Ball Declared. An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended:
(a) when a runner is contacted by a defensive player and touches the ground with any part of his body
other than his hands or feet.


NCAA rule you are using for your argument:

ARTICLE 3. Ball Declared Dead

A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle or declare it dead:

When any part of the ball carrier’s body, except his hand or foot, touches the ground


See the difference?

Every week NFL runners fall down, get back up, and keep running. They can't do that IN COLLEGE.






DarthMonk wrote:


OMG

He thinks the college dead ball rule is also the pro dead ball rule and continues to leave out the key phrase concerning being contacted by a defensive player which is right in the very rule he continues to cite.

And then he calls me an idiot.

OMFG
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Re: Crawling into the Endzone

Postby TexasCowboy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:01 pm

The game is over time to move on
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Re: Crawling into the Endzone

Postby DarthMonk » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:21 am

TexasCowboy wrote:The game is over time to move on


Yep, you lost. Let's see if you can live up to your statement above and move on.

I'm betting against it.
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Re: Crawling into the Endzone

Postby TexasCowboy » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:58 pm

You know it's only a matter of time before the league does the same thing to you, Hope you realize that people, The league makes it crystal clear they don't care who anyone is? If they want the other team to win the game, That is how the outcome of the game is going to be? ah but alas it eventually does end, see MLB (Pete Rose) scandal, Barry Bonds and others regarding steroid use which crippled the league good

the NFL may think it can run and hide, but eventually they'll get you to
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Re: Crawling into the Endzone

Postby DarthMonk » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:53 am

TexasCowboy wrote:The game is over time to move on


Yep, you lost. Let's see if you can live up to your statement above and move on.

I'm betting against it - and winning the bet so far.
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Re: Crawling into the Endzone

Postby TexasCowboy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:45 pm

#stillacatch
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Re: Crawling into the Endzone

Postby flamethrower » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:50 pm

The 2 receptions in question were both ruled IN-COM-PLETE. It's time to get over it.
Also for someone who wants to move on. If you actually want to move on. Cease replying.
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