Post Dallas Mark Brunell Thread

Washington Redskins' Game Day discussions for 2003, 2004, and 2005
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Postby Irn-Bru » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:36 pm

SkinzCanes wrote:That makes sense except for the fact that Brunell's game management isn't very good for a veteran qb and he hasn't really grasped the offense. There have been several articles about Brunell's struggles understanding the offense. I remember reading one is which the author cited several coaches as saying that Brunell wasn't reacting quickly enough after the snap and that's why he was having to throw underneath to his running backs isntead of downfield to his receivers. I could understand the argument if Brunell exhibited the charactersitcs of verteran qb: consistancy, leadership, good decision make, strong understanding of the offense, etc. But I haven't seen any of that from him yet this season.


I'll bold each term as I come to it. . .

Remember that Brunell doesn't have to be a great game manager to be our best shot at winning, but only better than any other QBs on the roster. In this respect I think that he is. Notice how all we've had to talk about in recent weeks are some "near" interceptions from this past game? He might dump off too much, but the man is not being reckless with the ball, and he even completes passes downfield every now and then.

Brunell has played consistently this season--obviously not consistently great, but we've been able to expect about the same performance from him each week. Notice how you can't point to him as being the ingredient that lost, or won, many (if any) games for us.

As for leadership, do you see a lockerroom mutiny in progress? The coaches and players stand behind Brunell, and our team doesn't win in spite of him. Winning and leadership are not the same things, and every indication that I've seen suggests that Brunell is helping bring cohesion to the squad rather than division.

Good decision making has been shown in his stats--which have been consistently good--and especially his lack of sacks and interceptions. When Mark drops back you can't count on his abilities to sling our way to touchdowns, but his decision making itself has been fine.

And, finally, his understanding of this offense has been reported to be the best out of the quarterbacks on the roster. (I point to any of Gibbs' statements, B. Lloyd's personal interview with JansenFan, and just about every other indication that we as fans have had access to). Another category where Brunell doesn't have to be a superstar to start but only the best on the roster. . .which he appears to be.
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Postby joebagadonuts » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:48 pm

The Hogster wrote:Uh..we're scoring enough points....everyone gives the defense a pass, but dude their darned near last in every category. If we praise the D and crap on the Offense 2 years ago, we have to do the same now. If the D could hold our opponents under 18 points per game, we'd be in great shape.


Under 18 points a game would put us ranked 7th in defense in the NFL. So what you're basically arguing is that the defense has to play well above average to make up for the offense's deficiencies. In fact, the offense didn't even score 18 points against Dallas (or Minnesota or Dallas or the Giants or Indy).

And I've never given the D a 'pass'. In fact, I've stated several times that I think they've played pretty poorly (duh). It just seems as though several members of this board are not willing to recognize that when the defense fails, we need a QB who has the ability to win games for us. MB doesn't seem capable of maximizing the potential the offense seems to have.

What's frustrtating is that no matter what MB does not do to win games, the BDers always have an excuse (the defense, the O-line, it's a team game, etc.). You don't seem to be able to simply admit that perhaps Mark Brunell, no matter how much you might like him, no matter how much the defense has underperformed, is not performing well enough this year to lead us to the playoffs.

I'm willing to admit that he HAS played well at times this year. He was in the zone in Houston. The first half of the recent Dallas game and the Indy game he was sharp, and looked confident about where he was throwing. In fact, I could point to some nice throws in almost every game this year. But he can't seem to do it consistently, nor can he seem to step it up when we need points to win or seal a game. If he were to play consistently better, or make a play where we could say, 'Brunell won that game for us', I'd be in favor of him continuing to start.
Last edited by joebagadonuts on Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby joebagadonuts » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:54 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:Remember that Brunell doesn't have to be a great game manager to be our best shot at winning, but only better than any other QBs on the roster.


If our best can only lead us to a 3-5 record, then we're in deep doo doo.
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:58 pm

SkinzCanes wrote:That makes sense except for the fact that Brunell's game management isn't very good for a veteran qb and he hasn't really grasped the offense. There have been several articles about Brunell's struggles understanding the offense. I remember reading one is which the author cited several coaches as saying that Brunell wasn't reacting quickly enough after the snap and that's why he was having to throw underneath to his running backs isntead of downfield to his receivers. I could understand the argument if Brunell exhibited the charactersitcs of verteran qb: consistancy, leadership, good decision make, strong understanding of the offense, etc. But I haven't seen any of that from him yet this season.


I have a hard time with the Brunell hasn't "grasped the offense" line. We're not in big disagreement, we see other issues, I'm just talking about that one. Basically, he can't throw. If he could and were struggling I could buy that point. But throwing innacurate passes and ducks isn't the offensive scheme. He was the same way 2 years ago under a different scheme.

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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:02 pm

The Hogster wrote:Uh..we're scoring enough points....everyone gives the defense a pass, but dude their darned near last in every category. If we praise the D and crap on the Offense 2 years ago, we have to do the same now. If the D could hold our opponents under 18 points per game, we'd be in great shape.


What are you talking about? Everyone is ripping the D, and deservedly so. Who gives them a pass?

They are consistent, they make everyone look good. Pro-bowlers like Manning, veteran jurneymen like Brad Johnson, first year starters like Romo and rookies like Young. Every QB gets to be a pro-bowler the week they play us.

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Postby joebagadonuts » Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:07 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote: Every QB gets to be a pro-bowler the week they play us.


It's like fantasy camp!
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Postby die cowboys die » Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:25 pm

SkinsJock wrote:It is really strange to hear some claim to be a fan and say that it is a shame we beat the pukes because somehow they think that means we will continue to "suffer" with Brunell as our QB - IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE - Gibbs and Saunders will put in Campbell when he gives them the best chance to win and BTW - you are not a true fan if you do not support your team
(*emphasis added)


CONGRATULATIONS! you are the winner of the award for
DUMBEST POST OF THE YEAR!!!
:celebrate: :celebrate: :celebrate: :celebrate: :celebrate: :celebrate: :celebrate: :celebrate:

while many other posts were nominated (i'm sure many nominated some of my own posts, in fact), yours was the hands-down winner. this is due to the fact that you have chosen to take the Official Pissing Contest to unprecedented heights... er, lows. #-o

pathetic. absolutely pathetic.
yeah, we all come on here every day and make hundreds/thousands of posts out of our passion for the team, because we're not fans. :roll:
outrageous. asinine.

the Anti-Brunellians could easily make the argument that "if you are not against brunell, you are not a fan" since we firmly believe that brunell is a destructive force to the redskins. but have you ever seen such an accusation? get over yourself. you are not a "better fan" than anyone else on this board.

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Postby The Hogster » Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:36 pm

joebagadonuts wrote:
The Hogster wrote:Uh..we're scoring enough points....everyone gives the defense a pass, but dude their darned near last in every category. If we praise the D and crap on the Offense 2 years ago, we have to do the same now. If the D could hold our opponents under 18 points per game, we'd be in great shape.


Under 18 points a game would put us ranked 7th in defense in the NFL. So what you're basically arguing is that the defense has to play well above average to make up for the offense's deficiencies. In fact, the offense didn't even score 18 points against Dallas (or Minnesota or Dallas or the Giants or Indy).

And I've never given the D a 'pass'. In fact, I've stated several times that I think they've played pretty poorly (duh). It just seems as though several members of this board are not willing to recognize that when the defense fails, we need a QB who has the ability to win games for us. MB doesn't seem capable of maximizing the potential the offense seems to have.

What's frustrtating is that no matter what MB does not do to win games, the BDers always have an excuse (the defense, the O-line, it's a team game, etc.). You don't seem to be able to simply admit that perhaps Mark Brunell, no matter how much you might like him, no matter how much the defense has underperformed, is not performing well enough this year to lead us to the playoffs.

I'm willing to admit that he HAS played well at times this year. He was in the zone in Houston. The first half of the recent Dallas game and the Indy game he was sharp, and looked confident about where he was throwing. In fact, I could point to some nice throws in almost every game this year. But he can't seem to do it consistently, nor can he seem to step it up when we need points to win or seal a game. If he were to play consistently better, or make a play where we could say, 'Brunell won that game for us', I'd be in favor of him continuing to start.


Uh. I dunno where ya been for the past 2 years, but being ranked 7th in the league is not a stretch. We were ranked 3rd in GW's first year, and 9th last year. We supposedly added players at "need positions" in Carter, Rocky McIntosh and Arch...so anticipating a defense that was commensurate with what we have had for the past few years is not an irrational expectation. In fact, I'd bet that more people would have thought that being ranked 7th more likely than 30th??? So I'm not sure your point is well made.

It's not making up for inefficiencies. Thats an inappropriate way to look at a team. I could easily say that the offense has to "make up for the defensive ineptitude"...but that would be fingerpointing.

All I am saying is that all of this Brunell hate would not be happening if we were not asking him to suddenly play like Donovan McNabb, sling for 300 yds and 3 TD's EVERY game.

A good running game and great defense can make any QB look good. That doesn't mean that the QB IS that good, but it soothes the fans who disproportionately blame the QB of a team that has little to no run game or defense.

Just be realistic is all I'm saying. This logic that Brunell is the source of our problems is just plain wrong.
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Postby The Hogster » Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:38 pm

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
The Hogster wrote:Uh..we're scoring enough points....everyone gives the defense a pass, but dude their darned near last in every category. If we praise the D and crap on the Offense 2 years ago, we have to do the same now. If the D could hold our opponents under 18 points per game, we'd be in great shape.


What are you talking about? Everyone is ripping the D, and deservedly so. Who gives them a pass?

They are consistent, they make everyone look good. Pro-bowlers like Manning, veteran jurneymen like Brad Johnson, first year starters like Romo and rookies like Young. Every QB gets to be a pro-bowler the week they play us.


Youngster...you've come in at the tail end of a discussion...I'm talking to specific fellow fans on here (that have been around expressing opinions longer than you) who have either 1) consistenly blamed Brunell 2) consistenly not criticized our defense this year

Thanks.
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Postby The Hogster » Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:42 pm

joebagadonuts wrote:
The Hogster wrote:Uh..we're scoring enough points....everyone gives the defense a pass, but dude their darned near last in every category. If we praise the D and crap on the Offense 2 years ago, we have to do the same now. If the D could hold our opponents under 18 points per game, we'd be in great shape.


Under 18 points a game would put us ranked 7th in defense in the NFL. So what you're basically arguing is that the defense has to play well above average to make up for the offense's deficiencies. In fact, the offense didn't even score 18 points against Dallas (or Minnesota or Dallas or the Giants or Indy).

And I've never given the D a 'pass'. In fact, I've stated several times that I think they've played pretty poorly (duh). It just seems as though several members of this board are not willing to recognize that when the defense fails, we need a QB who has the ability to win games for us. MB doesn't seem capable of maximizing the potential the offense seems to have.

What's frustrtating is that no matter what MB does not do to win games, the BDers always have an excuse (the defense, the O-line, it's a team game, etc.). You don't seem to be able to simply admit that perhaps Mark Brunell, no matter how much you might like him, no matter how much the defense has underperformed, is not performing well enough this year to lead us to the playoffs.

I'm willing to admit that he HAS played well at times this year. He was in the zone in Houston. The first half of the recent Dallas game and the Indy game he was sharp, and looked confident about where he was throwing. In fact, I could point to some nice throws in almost every game this year. But he can't seem to do it consistently, nor can he seem to step it up when we need points to win or seal a game. If he were to play consistently better, or make a play where we could say, 'Brunell won that game for us', I'd be in favor of him continuing to start.


Have you ever played a team sport? Aside from Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Montana....NO QUARTERBACK IN THE LEAGUE CAN WIN GAMES ALONE.

McNabb is either first or tops in the league in most passing categories. They have the #1 offense in the NFL...but guess what "They're 4-4". Even the greatest QB can't do it every week.

Look at Brett Favre, put him on several teams, including ours and he'de be winning games, but he's not. Why? It's not because he's not a great player...but because not even a HOF'er can do it alone game in and game out.

I DON'T LOVE BRUNELL. Ive gone on record as saying he's too old...but I'm realistic in the blame I attribute to him. The stuff some of you say is just downright nonsensical and unrealistic to expect him to do stuff that we all know that most Quarterbacks can't do every week.
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Postby joebagadonuts » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:46 pm

The Hogster wrote:
joebagadonuts wrote:
The Hogster wrote:Uh..we're scoring enough points....everyone gives the defense a pass, but dude their darned near last in every category. If we praise the D and crap on the Offense 2 years ago, we have to do the same now. If the D could hold our opponents under 18 points per game, we'd be in great shape.


Under 18 points a game would put us ranked 7th in defense in the NFL. So what you're basically arguing is that the defense has to play well above average to make up for the offense's deficiencies. In fact, the offense didn't even score 18 points against Dallas (or Minnesota or Dallas or the Giants or Indy).

And I've never given the D a 'pass'. In fact, I've stated several times that I think they've played pretty poorly (duh). It just seems as though several members of this board are not willing to recognize that when the defense fails, we need a QB who has the ability to win games for us. MB doesn't seem capable of maximizing the potential the offense seems to have.

What's frustrtating is that no matter what MB does not do to win games, the BDers always have an excuse (the defense, the O-line, it's a team game, etc.). You don't seem to be able to simply admit that perhaps Mark Brunell, no matter how much you might like him, no matter how much the defense has underperformed, is not performing well enough this year to lead us to the playoffs.

I'm willing to admit that he HAS played well at times this year. He was in the zone in Houston. The first half of the recent Dallas game and the Indy game he was sharp, and looked confident about where he was throwing. In fact, I could point to some nice throws in almost every game this year. But he can't seem to do it consistently, nor can he seem to step it up when we need points to win or seal a game. If he were to play consistently better, or make a play where we could say, 'Brunell won that game for us', I'd be in favor of him continuing to start.


Have you ever played a team sport? Aside from Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Montana....NO QUARTERBACK IN THE LEAGUE CAN WIN GAMES ALONE.

McNabb is either first or tops in the league in most passing categories. They have the #1 offense in the NFL...but guess what "They're 4-4". Even the greatest QB can't do it every week.

Look at Brett Favre, put him on several teams, including ours and he'de be winning games, but he's not. Why? It's not because he's not a great player...but because not even a HOF'er can do it alone game in and game out.

I DON'T LOVE BRUNELL. Ive gone on record as saying he's too old...but I'm realistic in the blame I attribute to him. The stuff some of you say is just downright nonsensical and unrealistic to expect him to do stuff that we all know that most Quarterbacks can't do every week.


Did I say that we need MB to win games by himself every week? No, I didn't. If you thought by my comments that I meant that he should drop back, throw the ball to himself and run it in for a touchdown every series, that's my fault for misleading you. I said that when the D or the running game (or both, as has been the case several times this year) is not working, it'd be nice to see him take control of the game and make some plays. I have yet to see him make any plays when it counts. He's bascially invisible for most of the game - most importantly for the latter half of the game. Doesn't make too many horrible plays, doesn't make too many great plays either. At some point, and this may come as a shock to you, we'll need some great plays from our QB. That's just the way the game works ('have you ever played football!?').


I don't blame MB for ALL of our woes. But he's supposed to be a leader, right? Doesn't that mean lead by example? Run for the first down when we need it badly, make a good throw on a 3rd down, inspire the rest of the offense (if not the whole team) to play well when we need points? I just don't see that from him, and my fear is that if we continue with him at QB, he won't be able to make up for the troubled defense and spotty running game we seem to have this year.

Am I saying that MB needs to make up for poor play by the rest of the team? Sure I am. But that's his job as QB. You're not expecting him to do great things, or at least things any greater than any other member of the team. I am. I'd settle for consistently good things. I had played football for several years, quarterback for most of them, and I learned that the way the QB goes is the way the team goes. The guy who touches the ball on every snap of every offensive play has the best chance to make a difference. I don't see MB making a difference, aside from being very, very, very careful with the ball. Sometimes, playing not to lose just isn't enough.


The Hogster wrote:Have you ever played a team sport?


Only several, and for 30 years and counting. Way to go the mature route.
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Postby SkinzCanes » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:48 pm

Did I say that we need MB to win games by himself every week? No, I didn't. If you thought by my comments that I meant that he should drop back, throw the ball to himself and run it in for a touchdown every series, that's my fault for misleading you. I said that when the D or the running game (or both, as has been the case several times this year) is not working, it'd be nice to see him take control of the game and make some plays. I have yet to see him make any plays when it counts. He's bascially invisible for most of the game - most importantly for the latter half of the game. Doesn't make too many horrible plays, doesn't make too many great plays either. At some point, and this may come as a shock to you, we'll need some great plays from our QB. That's just the way the game works ('have you ever played football!?').


I don't blame MB for ALL of our woes. But he's supposed to be a leader, right? Doesn't that mean lead by example? Run for the first down when we need it badly, make a good throw on a 3rd down, inspire the rest of the offense (if not the whole team) to play well when we need points? I just don't see that from him, and my fear is that if we continue with him at QB, he won't be able to make up for the troubled defense and spotty running game we seem to have this year.

Am I saying that MB needs to make up for poor play by the rest of the team? Sure I am. But that's his job as QB. You're not expecting him to do great things, or at least things any greater than any other member of the team. I am. I'd settle for consistently good things. I had played football for several years, quarterback for most of them, and I learned that the way the QB goes is the way the team goes. The guy who touches the ball on every snap of every offensive play has the best chance to make a difference. I don't see MB making a difference, aside from being very, very, very careful with the ball. Sometimes, playing not to lose just isn't enough.


Well said.
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Postby The Hogster » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:55 pm

Am I saying that MB needs to make up for poor play by the rest of the team? Sure I am. But that's his job as QB.


If you really believe this statement, then there is no point in even discussing NFL football with you. It's one thing to manage the game, make your teammates better, and win games. It's another to have to make up for the fact that the defense gave up 400 yds in a game.

It's another thing to have to score 30 points every week. It's another thing t have to make up for injuries to the number one receiver. It's another thing to have to make up for allowing opposing team QB's to have a 103 passer rating vs. us. It's another thing to make amends for every single thing that happens in a game. This is unrealistic, and down right ridiculous.

What quarterback outside of Manning and Brady and maybe McNabb, could you plug into this team and automatically reverse our record?

That's right, you don't wanna address reality. You want to fantasize that a guy who has never taken a live snap (and doesn't take snaps in practice for that matter) can come in and do for this team what pro-bowlers like McNabb and Favre can't do for theirs. :?

Is Brunell a top 5 QB in the league? No, but you all need to wake up and face the reality that we don't have Manning, we don't have Palmer, we don't have Favre....we have Mark Brunell, and right now he's playing well enough to win NFC East style football....we just have to run the ball, control the clock and play better than second to last defense to win games.

Since you played QB for a lot of years (maybe 30) I hereby pronounce you the one and only reason that your teams lost games. :roll:
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Postby BearSkins » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:34 pm

Is Brunell a top 5 QB in the league? No, but you all need to wake up and face the reality that we don't have Manning, we don't have Palmer, we don't have Favre....we have Mark Brunell, and right now he's playing well enough to win NFC East style football....we just have to run the ball, control the clock and play better than second to last defense to win games.


Spot on, man. I saw it all last season with 3rd stringer Kyle Orton at the Bears. He made the playoffs but was, frankly, terrible. All his passes were dink and dunk and his deep ball was REALLY lacking (sound like any familiar #8s...?). BUT, they handed off to T. Jones and had the D step up big style. It CAN be done....but does Saunders have the plays in that book of his for CP/the O-line and is the D capable of playing lights out from here on in? The Redskins, it should be noted, have way more talent at RB, WR and TE than the Bears did last year.

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Postby Champsturf » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:14 pm

The Hogster wrote:
Am I saying that MB needs to make up for poor play by the rest of the team? Sure I am. But that's his job as QB.


If you really believe this statement, then there is no point in even discussing NFL football with you. It's one thing to manage the game, make your teammates better, and win games. It's another to have to make up for the fact that the defense gave up 400 yds in a game.

It's another thing to have to score 30 points every week. It's another thing t have to make up for injuries to the number one receiver. It's another thing to have to make up for allowing opposing team QB's to have a 103 passer rating vs. us. It's another thing to make amends for every single thing that happens in a game. This is unrealistic, and down right ridiculous.

What quarterback outside of Manning and Brady and maybe McNabb, could you plug into this team and automatically reverse our record?

That's right, you don't wanna address reality. You want to fantasize that a guy who has never taken a live snap (and doesn't take snaps in practice for that matter) can come in and do for this team what pro-bowlers like McNabb and Favre can't do for theirs. :?

Is Brunell a top 5 QB in the league? No, but you all need to wake up and face the reality that we don't have Manning, we don't have Palmer, we don't have Favre....we have Mark Brunell, and right now he's playing well enough to win NFC East style football....we just have to run the ball, control the clock and play better than second to last defense to win games.

Since you played QB for a lot of years (maybe 30) I hereby pronounce you the one and only reason that your teams lost games. :roll:


You ARE kidding, right? We won this past week against the Cowboys, but did not beat them. How did we do against the Giants? How did we do against the Cowboys the first time around? I know these games are in the past, but your loyalty seems to be there as well. Brunell is washed up. Period.

I would also like to ask you where Brunell has managed the game, making his team better? I also hate to say, but if he has, we still haven't won many games.

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