west coast offense

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west coast offense

Postby skinpride1 » Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:35 pm

I want to hear some opinons on the so called west coast offense. Are any teams playing a true west coast style offense anymore?Has the west coast style just been split into many types of different offenses.Would you consider gibbs offense a type of west coaststyle.Would you define it as using the quarterbacks feet to the receivers route,so timing can be sensed,or is the west coast a thing of the past because of the teams using it in different ways.What do you think,should teams call it something else, because it's not truley west coast.
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Postby die cowboys die » Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:45 am

as i understand it, the "West Coast" offense is built around the short passing game, with an emphasis on timing and "RAC" (run after catch).

the idea is that there are always small holes in any defense, and usually the defense will make those holes be up close within the 5-10 yard range, rather than expose an open area deep that could result in a huge gain.

so the QB is supposed to throw one of those holes while the WR is running toward it, that way the WR and ball arrive at the same time, hitting him in stride, and he can run forward for a few (or a lot) more yards after the short pass.


gibbs did throw a lot of short passes this season, but in general i don't think he runs a west coast style offense. gibbs prefers to pound the ball with the running game, which makes the defense bring additional men up close to stop the run. that sets up the deep play-action pass-- all the defenders are up close to stop the run so you throw it way downfield and go for the homerun. (but only AFTER you establish the run- so it's not like spurrier's idea of just throwing deep all day long even though there are 100 defenders back there).

one could argue that the West Coast offense uses the short passes for the same purpose-- to bring the defense up close so you can throw it over their head. true, any good offense will take its shots downfield. so perhaps you could make the distinction that the west coast offense substitutes that short passing game in place of a running game to some extent.

hope that made any sense.

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Postby Redskin in Canada » Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:45 pm

Joe Gibbs' teams have never played a West Coast offense.

http://www.westcoastoffense.com/

http://www.footballproject.com/story.php?storyid=61
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Postby welch » Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:52 pm

Thanks for the sources, RiC. (I would never have had the patience to track them down!)

Check your Washington Post Redskins book. I remember something in it that suggested the mid-60's Redskins ran the "west coast" offense under Otto Graham...long before anyone thought to name it.

Of course, Otto didn't care about the defense, thought the run was boring, and didn't waste much effort on the OL, either, so the Redskins always finished about 6 wins and 8 losses, but it made me think better of him.

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Postby Smithian » Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:12 pm

We didn't run the West Coast... We just stunk. :(
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Postby Redskin in Canada » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:23 pm

welch wrote:Thanks for the sources, RiC. (I would never have had the patience to track them down!).

I am not a fan of that system either but I found the "evolution" chart to be interesting.

welch wrote:Check your Washington Post Redskins book. I remember something in it that suggested the mid-60's Redskins ran the "west coast" offense under Otto Graham...long before anyone thought to name it..
I would not go that far. I give Bill Walsh a bit more credit than that.

But obviously there is rarely something coming out of nothing. Bill Walsh was influenced by others. I still feel he was an innovator (not that I like the system but it is innovation nevertheless).
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Postby BossHog » Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:32 pm

Redskin in Canada wrote: I would not go that far. I give Bill Walsh a bit more credit than that.

But obviously there is rarely something coming out of nothing. Bill Walsh was influenced by others. I still feel he was an innovator (not that I like the system but it is innovation nevertheless).


That's the view of Mike McCormack, Graham's offensive line coach at the time and later a head coach with three NFL teams and a prime builder of the expansion Carolina Panthers in the mid-1990s. "That West Coast offense everybody talks about [that started with coach Bill Walsh and the San Francisco 49ers] — Otto was running it in the late `60s," McCormack said.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... ges/68.htm
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Postby Redskin in Canada » Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:05 pm

I stand by my two statements in the post above.

Otto Graham's offense of the late 60's was not Bill Walsh's offense of the 80's. Nothing comes from nothing but there is a huge leap from one offense to another.

Some of the Walsh plays simply did not exist under Graham. These are plays created to fit some specific talent in the 49ers at that time.
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Postby BossHog » Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:57 am

Yeah the book and the offensive line coach couldn't possibly understand football like we do. :roll:
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Postby Redskin in Canada » Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:47 pm

BossHog wrote:Yeah the book and the offensive line coach couldn't possibly understand football like we do. :roll:

1. It is a matter of emphasis. One thing is to make a comment in passing in a not very impartial book, and quite another to acknowledge Otto Graham as the author of the West Coast Offense, at least in the way it succeeded in San Francisco.

2. Joe Gibbs never has played and I hope never switches to the WC offense notwithstanding the addition of Musgrave.

3. 20 years is a long time even for some old-timers like myself. From the late 60's offense of Otto Graham, and the personnel that he ran, to Bill Walsh in the 80's with completely different talent and players, well... let's say there a bit of a leap.

But you are right. What would I know if people better informed than myself say otherwise. These are only my My 2 cents
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Postby redskincity » Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:52 pm

offense has gone south--literally, towards San Diego, the home of the West Coast Offense, where it was fashioned by Sid Gillman of the NFL Chargers and Don Coryell of the San Diego State Aztecs/NFL Chargers.


http://www.4malamute.com/westcoast.html


Too me, if Don and Sid invented and updated the West Coast offense and Gibbs utilizes his system, Wouldn't we use some variant of the system???
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Postby Redskin in Canada » Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:51 pm

One version of the History and Evolutionof the WC offense.

Image

I have never associated the name of D. Coryell with the West Coast Offense.
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Postby welch » Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:40 am

I was intrigued by the suggestion in the Post that that Otto Graham ran elements of what became the west coast offense. Note the "Brown" in small letters, in the "geno-gram", as a source leading to Walsh. That's Paul Brown, certainly, Graham's coach at the Cleveland Browns.

But the Walsh offense never looked like Air Coryell or the Gibbs offense...at least not to me, as an observer. When I think of Walsh and the 49'ers, I think of receivers criss-crossing every which way, and a quick pass to Roger Craig. I think if Craig running tricks and traps, but not smash-mouth Hogs-like line play.

Maybe the interesting thing is how much of the "pre-WCO" thinking Sonny carried with him in his play calling for Lombardi and Allen. I remember that Allen hated letting Sonny run the team -- QB's called their own plays -- because, as my used to say, "Allen never knew what Sonny was going to do next". Maybe Sonny's creativity had been nurtured by Graham?

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Postby BossHog » Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:34 am

RIC... obviously Walsh has more to do with the WCO than anyone else. All I'm saying is that if you're going to talk about the EVOLUTION... one should peerhaps consider it's possible inception.

Whether the offense Graham ran was the same as Walsh or not, to me has no bearing on mentioning that it could very well indeed be where the WCO got it's start. Like Welch said, the Brown is likely Paul Brown, and to me that means they just didn't take that chart back quite far enough. Throw a tick above Brown and the name Graham, and I'd call it a day.

I guess the only guy that could answer the question is Bill Walsh himself.
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Postby Redskin in Canada » Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:21 pm

BossHog wrote:Throw a tick above Brown and the name Graham, and I'd call it a day.
Brown above is indeed Paul Brown. But there were other important influences on Walsh. Al Davis and Gillman are very important too.

From the Paul Brown branch, yes, one may add Otto Graham and I would call it a day too. :lol:
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