I just don't understand world politics...

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Postby Skinsfan55 » Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:48 pm

Brandon777 wrote:Will you just drop this subject. You won't change my views and I won't change yours. This is pointless.


I can't possibly hope to change your entire thinking on the subject of the middle east, but you shouldn't be so stubborn not to change your views on the appropriateness of generalizing everyone who disagrees with you as a queer or as being fruity. I am trying my best to find out and understand about differing views and you are trying your best to shut down differing opinions by belittling them.

THAT is where I can hope to change your views

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Postby Brandon777 » Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:51 pm

Skinsfan55 wrote:
NikiH wrote:If you choose the other option, the only thing I have to say to you is obviously the majority of this country disagrees with you. Our congress and our president, who were elected, by the majority, decided we need this.


This is just plain incorrect, I respect the way you feel about pretty much everything else, but to think the president is elected by the majority is just plain gullibility.

-Take out anyone 17 or under, that eliminates a huge chunk of the population.

-Slightly more than 50% of eligable voters register, take out another HUGE chunk of the population

-Slightly more than 50% of THOSE people vote!

-Then you have to cut it in half again (it was about half and half in the last election) to get the number of people who voted for Bush.

So when you look at the facts, Bush was elected by a small, small percentage of people out there. That doesn't mean people agree or disagree with him, but he was not elected by a majority.

I am not saying I am for or against Bush, I haven't yet, but what I am saying is just because he's our president doesn't mean we aren't allowed to question him! People faught and died not only for US to have the right to question our leaders, but we've faught wars all over the world to provide other nations with this privlige! supposedly this is also our goal in Iraq...

I love America, and all it has done for us. I love the basic values we have, and while I don't like having to work everyday to make capitalism work, I realize that this is the best way to build a great industrialized nation and all the perks that come with that. However, patriotism is more than just holding your hand over your heart when the president speaks, or getting choked up when you hear the "Star Spangled Banner" played. It's having a genuine interest in what your country is doing, how and why we act the way we do as a nation... seeing what direction the country is going in... and if you don't like it, trying to change it... or at least understand it!

Just letting people spoonfeed you your conclusions is not the way to go, and by saying that, I am not accusing anyone in particular... and the idea perpetuated by others that I have had my conclusions spoonfed to be by queer, left-wing, liberal professors is insulting and assinine. I have taken the information given to me and tried to form my own conclusions on the subject and I have asked for imput from many of you, but so far I have mostly been met with rudeness and "patriotic" speach. Can anyone else besides SFIR give me honest opinions on what good this is doing without using the words "because Bush said so, and he is always right!"
Just to make one thing clear, I always look at both sides of the story. After I do that, I make a choice to what I feel is right. I am not a puppet to the government. Hell, I use to question Bill Clinton's behavior all the time.
Let us all gather around and drink the Cooley-Aid of the Redskins.

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Postby skinsfaninroanoke » Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:57 pm

I still do Brandon :)

I do have core philosophies SF55... I think you and I will have to agree to disagree. I don't think for a moment you would think I was just being spoonfed my thoughts, now would ya? ;)

I am very serious when it comes to my beliefs. I debated on whether or not to even express my opinions on here - I know they are strong. And like most strong opinions, I know that can be abrasive to a lot of people. I know I have probably irked a few on here with my strong minded football opinions :grin:

As long as we all stay patriotic to the B & G - we can work the rest out... even if I have to get you drunk to do it :)
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Postby Brandon777 » Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:59 pm

Skinsfan55 wrote:
Brandon777 wrote:Will you just drop this subject. You won't change my views and I won't change yours. This is pointless.


I can't possibly hope to change your entire thinking on the subject of the middle east, but you shouldn't be so stubborn not to change your views on the appropriateness of generalizing everyone who disagrees with you as a queer or as being fruity. I am trying my best to find out and understand about differing views and you are trying your best to shut down differing opinions by belittling them.

THAT is where I can hope to change your views
I never called you queer. I refered to your PROFESSORS as having FRUITY views.
Let us all gather around and drink the Cooley-Aid of the Redskins.

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Postby NikiH » Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:10 pm

Wow Skinsfan you have alot to learn. First of all anyone not registered to vote or not exercising the right to vote does not have a say period. The president is elected by the majority of voters! Voters do not include anyone under 17 for good reason. And it does not include anyone who is so irresponsible they decide not to vote. Voting is a right, a right that people need to utilize it. So you can say what you want BUT..... I have backed my words up with facts. And I like everyone else who is now beating their head against a brick wall decided not to respond to this, at first. I do not need to list the reasoning of my support here. I have gone back and forth with you on this. And I DO NOT appreciate you acting as though you are superior because you've taken time to list the reasoning here on this board. Get back to me when you have a household to run and a child to raise. I do not have time or inclination to change your opinion.
I do however have to correct you on a few things. Patriotism is about loving your country, on whatever level that means. I don't see you wearing a uniform so obviously your way of loving this country is different then some others.
Secondly you cannot believe everything and anything you read in the media is the full truth. There is inteligence none of us knows and for good reason. There are still men in uniform risking their lives over there. After this is over, you can look back with the rest of us and thank goodness the President acted when he did. I like you and I'm not going to hold your attitude here against you. But I do not like being talked down to. I've made my decision on this topic and you've made yours. Another thing that makes this country great. However I don't appreciate being talked to like I am a drone that runs around agreeing with everything our president says.
I don't agree with his stance on gay marriage, I don't agree with his opinion on abortion. I could get into all of that but that would open a whole new can of worms. Just believe me when I say it's just as unfair for you to assume that the ones who disagree with you are spoonfed their opinions as it is for someone to say you are only influenced by your liberal instructors.
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Flanders: "Looks like someone is having a pre-rapture party!"

Homer: "No Flanders, it's a meeting of gay witches for abortion , you wouldn't be interested!"

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Postby Skinsfan55 » Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:10 pm

SFIR, of course I don't believe you were being spoonfed opinions, and I hope that you showed me the same respect of not thinking I am just spewing back whatever I was told in class. I disagree with my professors all the time, but that's neither here nor there.

What is important is that we both (and I really think more than just the both of us, probably everyone in this thread) share a common bond, we want what's best for the country. We disagree in what should be done to make the country better but I think we understand each others stances better, and I have enjoyed discussing (and learning about) this issue.

What I don't like is labeling and stereo-typing. After all, if the entire middle east was whacked and full of lunatics why would we waste our time trying to help them?

You know, speaking of sterotyping I had a friend who came over and was reading over my shoulder while I typed in a reply earlier this afternoon, and he laughed out loud at the idea of me being a "left-wing liberal queer", labeling doesn't do anyone any good and it's only a method of belittling someone elses opinion, and people only do that when they A.) Don't feel their argument is strong enough but they can't back down because they are in too deep. B.) they don't know why they feel like they do, it's just a gut feeling.

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Postby Skinsfan55 » Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:28 pm

-"And I DO NOT appreciate you acting as though you are superior"
-"Wow Skinsfan you have alot to learn."

Conversely I do not appreciate someone else acting superior. You may or may not have meant anything by the 2nd statement, but saying someone has a lot to learn because they don't see things the way you do is condecending and is really the problem I am seeing with the arguments being made here.

"I do however have to correct you on a few things. Patriotism is about loving your country, on whatever level that means. I don't see you wearing a uniform so obviously your way of loving this country is different then some others."

Has this not been my stance on patriotism all along? Patriotism is loving your country, but you don't have to agree with it! I hate how the word patriotism has been used to make people complacent with new policies. Patriotism is loving your country and wanting the best for it.

"Secondly you cannot believe everything and anything you read in the media is the full truth. There is inteligence none of us knows and for good reason. There are still men in uniform risking their lives over there. After this is over, you can look back with the rest of us and thank goodness the President acted when he did."

You're assuming that this is the 100% correct thing to do. What possible reason could they have for not making their true motives known? What possible information could their be that would instantly change my mind on this subject that hasn't been disclosed?! If there is information out there like this, then it does NO good to keep it a secret, we could have worldwide support if such information was available.

"Just believe me when I say it's just as unfair for you to assume that the ones who disagree with you are spoonfed their opinions as it is for someone to say you are only influenced by your liberal instructors."

This is just a paraphrase of what appeared in my post! I said that: "Just letting people spoonfeed you your conclusions is not the way to go, and by saying that, I am not accusing anyone in particular... and the idea perpetuated by others that I have had my conclusions spoonfed to be by queer, left-wing, liberal professors is insulting and assinine." completely the same sentiment as what I said!

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Postby JansenFan » Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:33 pm

I was a US Marine for 4 years. I spent time in North Carolina and Okinawa, Japan. I did so because I beleive in what this country stands for. I believe in freedom. I believe in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We all have to realize that we are having this great debate. Do you know what would have happened if Saddam Hussien was our leader and we were caught having this debate? Prison? Death? The murder of our entire families. That is what the people of Iraq lived with on a dialy basis.

Joe, you have your opinion and I respect that. As an American it is your right to do so. You can be a patriot without agreeing with our foriegn policy. That is why America is the greatest country on the face of the earth.

I just want everyone in this thread to remember that if it wasn't for the people of the military and their bravery, this conversation would not be possible. With the help of the brave men and women sacrificing everyday in Iraq, the Iraqis will someday have that same freedom. George Bush acted as he thought he must. Had America taken a premptive strike at Afghanastan, maybe September 11th could have been prevented. We will never know. If we had let the Iraq government continue to rub elbows with Bin Laden, maybe nothing would have happened. I for one would rather rid the world of a tyrant and maybe prevent another September 11th than to wait until after another tragedy to occur to act.

God Bless America, God Bless Freedom, and Hail to the Redskins!
RIP 21

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Postby DEHog » Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:04 pm

55...Come out to Dover and spend one day at work with me in the mortuary....I hope and pray that your friend and I never meet!! But if we do will his service have been in vain?
"Sean Taylor is hands down the best athlete I've ever coached it's not even close" Gregg Williams 2005 Mini-Camp

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Postby Skinsfan55 » Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:41 pm

I hope you never have to meet Chris too, at least not at work anyway...

But I don't think soldiers lives are wasted, obviously we're accomplishing SOME positives over there. I just wonder how many more soldiers will be taken before it's all over :(

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Postby NikiH » Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:36 pm

Sorry if my post made it sound like I was talking down to you. I was tired and frustrated. I obviously feel strongly about this subject. I meant no insult to you and I'm sorry if it came off that way.

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Postby Scooter » Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:18 pm

JansenFan - you make me proud man! I used to get worked up if people said they didn't vote - now I'm thankful they don't. I'm very thankful for any person serving our country in the military. I've got friends over there now - and I pray for their safe return. I also pray that the evil bastards hiding among the real people are found, burried deep and forgotten. Saddam was a terrorist :banker, friend, harborer and paid blood money to Hammas suicide killers. No question he was prime for a thumping. Still, I'd rather hear whining that we were being too harsh - than 'are we being sensative enough.' The more asswhipping the better. Word to good Iraqui's - point out the punks and stand far away!

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Postby Texas Hog » Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:27 am

nah...they're not "whacked"

BASRA, Iraq - Suicide attackers detonated simultaneous car bombs against police buildings during rush hour Wednesday, killing 68 people, including children, in the bloodiest attacks to hit this southern, mainly Shiite city since the U.S.-led occupation began a year ago.


AP Photo


Reuters
Slideshow: Iraq

Al-Sadr Halts Attacks on Spanish Troops
(AP Video)




Latest headlines:
· Car Bombs Leave 68 Dead in Southern Iraq
AP - 3 minutes ago
· St. Louis Reporters See Fierce Iraq Fight
AP - 5 minutes ago
· 68 killed in Iraq bombings as deadly battles rage in Fallujah
AFP - 5 minutes ago
Special Coverage





Iraqis pulled charred and torn bodies from mangled vehicles in front of the Saudia police station, located by Basra's crowded main street market — one of three stations and a police academy hit by a total of five car bombs, according to Basra's governor.


About 200 people were wounded, officials said.


Two vans passing the Saudia station were destroyed — one carrying kindergartners, the other taking girls to middle school. Dead children, burned beyond recognition, were taken to hospital morgues.
God bless our troops and Joe Gibbs.
We'll miss you, Joe.


#21 gone, but never forgotten.

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Postby Skinsfan55 » Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:30 am

You can't say EVERY person from a large region of people is insane.

Yes, that is a terrible tragedy, but those responsible represent a tiny portion of the people of Iraq.

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Postby redskinz4ever » Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:31 am

i don't vote but we live in america and that alone gives me and who ever else who whats to speak thier minds can.so with that i say... we tried to help which at the time i thought was the right choice and still do.but at the same time from where i stand seems to me that a lot of people from iraq don't. want our help any more.so we tried to be the big brother and with over 600 deaths right now, when is enough...ENOUGH.don't give me that i'am not american cause i don't vote crap.i support the armed forces very much and i love what they do for "MY COUNTRY"so you have freedom to vote and i have the freedom to not vote if i chose not to.i understand the way of life overseas but guess what... what gives us the right to change thier way of life or who or what someone believes in.we got saddam hussien and thats great!!!but its time to bring our troops home-don't let this become another vietnam war where we tried to make a difference and lost a lot of lives.so in closing i hope we are doing the right thing by standing our ground overseas.REDSKINZ4EVER!!!!
TOUCHDOWN .....WASHINGTON REDSKINS !!!!

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