Stop the madness! A "big tall possession WR" is n

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mursilis
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Stop the madness! A "big tall possession WR" is n

Postby Mursilis » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:37 pm

If I have to read another armchair GM proclaim a "big tall possession WR" a top priority for this team, I'm going to explode. :explode: People, stop repeating what the last person wrote, and think! Sure, I've love to see us add a big tall fast WR with great hands - what team wouldn't?!? But is it a huge priority for this team? NO!!
Tom Brady won 3 Super Bowls with a WR corp under 6'. His tallest guy was Patten, and we stole him away. NE didn't miss him and he didn't do a darn thing for us! Sure, Brady looks great tossing the ball to Moss, but Wes Welker, all 5' 9" of him, actually caught more balls for that team (led the WHOLE NFL, in fact). And it's not like Brady wasn't winning championships and racking up the stats with the no-names he had at WR before. Peyton Manning seems to do OK with Harrison and Wayne, both of whom are only 6'. Sure, Dallas Clark is 6' 3", but that's not the guy he set the TD record with - that was Harrison.
You know who was over 6'? Rod Gardner (6'2")! How'd that work out?!?! Mike Williams is 6'5" - talk about your prototype big possession receiver! So why has he been released twice in 4 years in the league? Think anyone would want 6'5" Williams over 5'9" Steve Smith from Carolina?!? Size is just one factor, people! Don't obsess over a few inches! We've already got Chris Cooley (6'3") - as long as he's healthy, there's our possession receiver. Our best record this decade was 10-6 in 2005, and we were without a possession guy then (other than Cooley). Didn't stop us that year from making the playoffs.
On the offensive side of the ball, the first (and only) big priority is the line. Having an all-star WR corp didn't get Detroit into the playoffs. Remember when they played us? John "The SackED King" Kitna was so busy running for his life, all those great Detroit WRs weren't factors. Get the line healed up and add some fresh young guys up front, and JC will be fine with Moss, Cooley, ARE, and some young talent - that Mix guy shows some promise. Besides, a healthy line at 100% will give the running game some holes, and we can go back to burning them with play action. After the O-line, we need to look at the D-line, the LBs (also had injury issues this year), and the secondary (Springs may or may not be back, Rogers is still out for a while, and Smoot had some injuries this year). A big tall possession reciever is way down on the priority list. Don't fall for the hype.

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Postby JansenFan » Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:13 am

:celebrate:
RIP 21

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Postby CanesSkins26 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:37 am

Tom Brady won 3 Super Bowls with a WR corp under 6'. His tallest guy was Patten, and we stole him away. NE didn't miss him and he didn't do a darn thing for us! Sure, Brady looks great tossing the ball to Moss, but Wes Welker, all 5' 9" of him, actually caught more balls for that team (led the WHOLE NFL, in fact). And it's not like Brady wasn't winning championships and racking up the stats with the no-names he had at WR before. Peyton Manning seems to do OK with Harrison and Wayne, both of whom are only 6'. Sure, Dallas Clark is 6' 3", but that's not the guy he set the TD record with - that was Harrison.
You know who was over 6'? Rod Gardner (6'2")! How'd that work out?!?! Mike Williams is 6'5" - talk about your prototype big possession receiver! So why has he been released twice in 4 years in the league? Think anyone would want 6'5" Williams over 5'9" Steve Smith from Carolina?!? Size is just one factor, people! Don't obsess over a few inches! We've already got Chris Cooley (6'3") - as long as he's healthy, there's our possession receiver. Our best record this decade was 10-6 in 2005, and we were without a possession guy then (other than Cooley). Didn't stop us that year from making the playoffs.


Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are two of the most, if not the most, accurate passers in the NFL. You can give those two qb's just about any receivers and they will find a way to be successful. When you have a qb that isn't quite as accurate (JC) and tends to throw high, having a bigger target becomes much more important. If we had a taller starting receiver, that throw late in the 4th quarter of the game of the Dallas game that went over Moss' head in the endzone is a td and we win. For a young qb just learning the system having a receiver that he can throw the ball up to is important. How many times has Eli been bailed out because he could throw the ball up to Buress and he would out jump the defender and make a play? You mentioned Carolina's offense....yes Smith has posted big numbers in that offense, but their offense as a whole is not very good. Shut down Smith and the Panthers are done.

Not having a big target hurts us in the red zone a lot as well. Just look at how much attention teams pay to Cooley in the red zone. Not having a secondary target in the red zone is one of the reasons why we struggle down there. Do we even have a receiver that we can throw a fade too? (And no Mix doesn't count until he actually starts playing on offense).

Not having a legit target also causes us to not maximize our talent on offense. In no way is ARE a #2 receiver. He is best suited to play in the slot, like Welker does in NE. But because we lack another starting caliber receiver, he is forced into a roll that doesn't suit him. So we are basically paying him a boatload of money to play out of position.

So yes there are other areas that need to be addressed on offense, but for our offense to be a consistent threat we are going to have to add another starting caliber receiver. If we don't the unit is just going to be inconsistent as it has been the last few seasons. If there is no defensive linemen that we like at #21 (and there is a good chance there wont be because dline is weak in this draf) there is no reason why we can't draft a guy like Sweed or Kelly. Offensive line can easily be addressed in the middle rounds if we draft wisely.


You know who was over 6'?


Out of the top 10 receivers this season, not a single one was under 6'0 tall. And 6 out of those 10 were 6'3 or taller.
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Postby Skinsfan55 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:15 am

Exactly, when Chris Cooley is the Redskins ONLY receiving weapon in the Red Zone, it's not good.

People cursed Gibbs for trying to run the ball when we got close to the goal, but what else were we gonna do? Throw it to a triple covered Cooley? Toss a jump ball to a 5'9'' Santana Moss? Gibbs is a conservative playcaller, but his hands were tied a little bit by his personnel.

By the way, I find the use of Mike Williams as a negative indicting the whole idea of having a tall WR ridiculous, as do I find the lable of "prototypical WR" laughable.

Mike Williams was recruited by most teams as a TE out of high school. He's fat (271 pounds!) and as a Titan, he will be used as an H-back according to coaches.
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Postby DEHog » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:34 am

Out of the top 10 receivers this season, not a single one was under 6'0 tall. And 6 out of those 10 were 6'3 or taller


Wes Welker /Derrick Mason :hmm:
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Postby Skinsfan55 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:42 am

He was probably looking at yards instead of catches. Judging a WR based on number of catches is a poor indicator.

Or maybe he was looking at TD catches, the only WR under 6' is Greg Jennings and he's 5'11''

Even Yards Per Catch which you would assume is a small wideout's stat since they should be quicker and more apt for big gains doesn't have one guy under 5'11'' and only 3 under 6'.

Tom Brady is great, and he won games with shorter receivers, but he is a great QB with a brilliant coach and excellent coordinators. Saying that anyone could win with the rag tag group Brady had and pointing to his success is ridiculous, because Brady, Bill Belichick and the coaching staff of the Patriots would have won 14 games with the Redskins talent last year.
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Postby LOSTHOG » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:14 pm

CanesSkins26 wrote: If there is no defensive linemen that we like at #21 (and there is a good chance there wont be because dline is weak in this draf) there is no reason why we can't draft a guy like Sweed or Kelly. Offensive line can easily be addressed in the middle rounds if we draft wisely.


I can't see us wasting, yes wasting our first round draft pick on a receiver this year unless we hire Matt Millen as GM. Our receivers may not be tops in the league, but they can be productive. Look at the last four weeks of the season. Is that a knock on Campbell? Well maybe it is. He is going to have to step his game up. He is going to have to improve his accuracy and touch.

I would rather spend the first round pick on just about any other position. We all know we need D-linemen. Our secondary is questionable going into '08 at both corner and safety. Offensive linemen can be added in later rounds, but if one is available at #21 that we feel can step in right now if need be, then we need to get him. It's not like adding a big receiver is going to put us over the top. We have to draft by need instead of flash.

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Postby Skinsfan55 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:17 pm

C'mon guys, at least do your homework:

Pretty much every single mock draft has us taking Derrick Harvey who is a beast. Calais Campbell should also be available at our pick though he seems like a good fit for a 3-4 defense (not that he would be bad here.)

As for WR's I see Limas Sweed, Early Doucet and Mario Manningham as being potentially available.

On a team like us where we're already pretty talented, it might not be a bad idea to get a WR and allow them to develop. Still, I'd rather have Harvey
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Postby brad7686 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:12 pm

People like moss randle el and caldwell are fine if you have one or two of them on a team because they create mismatches down the field when the corners are occupied by larger, playmaking receivers. I agree there are not a ton of large wr's that are also hard to run with, but if you take them early, history has shown that there is a much better chance they will pan out, as with every other position except maybe qb. You may have to take two somewhat early. And the fact of the matter is that it may be worth it just to try and find one like that, because the teams that have them are that much better. You also have to evaluate on an individual level. For instance mike williams didn't play for a whole year before the draft, bad pick. Ended up being out of shape. Braylon Edwards dominated every corner in college in every physical facet of the game. Good Pick. Calvin Johnson was a no brainer and he already started to show signs of how good he would be late in the season. Tedd Ginn probly isn't physical enough to make it. Bad pick. Same with Dwayne Jarrets lack of vertical speed. The idea is to find guys who you think can outrun, outmuscle, and outjump corners in the nfl, regardless of college production, where they went to college(marques colston), or what they did off the field(Randy Moss). I think there are guys like that in this draft. I think this will be a good one for the WR.
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Postby CanesSkins26 » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:01 am

DEHog wrote:
Out of the top 10 receivers this season, not a single one was under 6'0 tall. And 6 out of those 10 were 6'3 or taller


Wes Welker /Derrick Mason :hmm:


I was going by yards. Neither Mason or Welker rank in the top 10 in the NFL in receiving yards on the season.
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Postby CanesSkins26 » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:06 am

Skinsfan55 wrote:C'mon guys, at least do your homework:

Pretty much every single mock draft has us taking Derrick Harvey who is a beast. Calais Campbell should also be available at our pick though he seems like a good fit for a 3-4 defense (not that he would be bad here.)

As for WR's I see Limas Sweed, Early Doucet and Mario Manningham as being potentially available.

On a team like us where we're already pretty talented, it might not be a bad idea to get a WR and allow them to develop. Still, I'd rather have Harvey


I can't see us taking Harvey. No doubt he was a beast at UF but the Gators' website has him listed at 227 pounds. Unless he can pack on some serious weight he is going to be more a 3-4 linebacker/DE tweener.

Campbell on the other hand, has the size to be an every down defensive end in the NFL. He can rush the qb but can also hold up against the run. Hopefully Campbell falls to us because I don't think that there are any other defensive ends that fit our needs that we can draft with the 21st pick.
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Re: Stop the madness! A "big tall possession WR"

Postby HEROHAMO » Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:22 am

Mursilis wrote:If I have to read another armchair GM proclaim a "big tall possession WR" a top priority for this team, I'm going to explode. :explode: People, stop repeating what the last person wrote, and think! Sure, I've love to see us add a big tall fast WR with great hands - what team wouldn't?!? But is it a huge priority for this team? NO!!
Tom Brady won 3 Super Bowls with a WR corp under 6'. His tallest guy was Patten, and we stole him away. NE didn't miss him and he didn't do a darn thing for us! Sure, Brady looks great tossing the ball to Moss, but Wes Welker, all 5' 9" of him, actually caught more balls for that team (led the WHOLE NFL, in fact). And it's not like Brady wasn't winning championships and racking up the stats with the no-names he had at WR before. Peyton Manning seems to do OK with Harrison and Wayne, both of whom are only 6'. Sure, Dallas Clark is 6' 3", but that's not the guy he set the TD record with - that was Harrison.
You know who was over 6'? Rod Gardner (6'2")! How'd that work out?!?! Mike Williams is 6'5" - talk about your prototype big possession receiver! So why has he been released twice in 4 years in the league? Think anyone would want 6'5" Williams over 5'9" Steve Smith from Carolina?!? Size is just one factor, people! Don't obsess over a few inches! We've already got Chris Cooley (6'3") - as long as he's healthy, there's our possession receiver. Our best record this decade was 10-6 in 2005, and we were without a possession guy then (other than Cooley). Didn't stop us that year from making the playoffs.
On the offensive side of the ball, the first (and only) big priority is the line. Having an all-star WR corp didn't get Detroit into the playoffs. Remember when they played us? John "The SackED King" Kitna was so busy running for his life, all those great Detroit WRs weren't factors. Get the line healed up and add some fresh young guys up front, and JC will be fine with Moss, Cooley, ARE, and some young talent - that Mix guy shows some promise. Besides, a healthy line at 100% will give the running game some holes, and we can go back to burning them with play action. After the O-line, we need to look at the D-line, the LBs (also had injury issues this year), and the secondary (Springs may or may not be back, Rogers is still out for a while, and Smoot had some injuries this year). A big tall possession reciever is way down on the priority list. Don't fall for the hype.


Ok the receiver does not have to be big and tall. The receiver just has to be tough and reliable. Has to be able to block, make the tough catch and be clutch in the clutch moments.

Only receiver who has all that is Cooley and he is our tight end. The rest of the receivers are very inconsisent. I love them to death but the truth is the truth. We need our next Art Monk.

Yes we also need depth at the offensive line, but no one said we have to draft a receiver in the first round. However we find that gem of a receiver is fine with me.

Fact is this team needs a little help in every department. Another corner, defensive end, linebacker, receiver, offensive guard, tackle, a free saftie, a head coach.
Sean Taylor starting free safety Heavens team!

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Re: Stop the madness! A "big tall possession WR"

Postby PulpExposure » Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:37 pm

HEROHAMO wrote:[Fact is this team needs a little help in every department. Another corner, defensive end, linebacker, receiver, offensive guard, tackle, a free saftie, a head coach.


Not TE, QB, DT, or RB!

And our FS of the future is Landry (he played Taylor's position the last few games). We may want a new SS, though.

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Postby CanesSkins26 » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:25 pm

Not TE, QB, DT, or RB!


Um actually we do need help at DT. Montgomery has played well but Golston is not starting caliber and Griffin could be cut, and even if he isn't, he can't stay healthy and isn't the player that he used to be. I would think this years playoffs (and this weekend in particular) have shown just how important having an impact dline is and how it can mask deficiencies elsewhere in the defense (see the Giants).
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Re: Stop the madness! A "big tall possession WR"

Postby HEROHAMO » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:34 am

PulpExposure wrote:
HEROHAMO wrote:[Fact is this team needs a little help in every department. Another corner, defensive end, linebacker, receiver, offensive guard, tackle, a free saftie, a head coach.


Not TE, QB, DT, or RB!

And our FS of the future is Landry (he played Taylor's position the last few games). We may want a new SS, though.


I didnt mention tight end , QB, DT or Rb.

Also Landry can play both free and strong saftie. If we draft a quality saftie like Kenny Phillips he would be able to play both as well.
Sean Taylor starting free safety Heavens team!

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