Trent Williams & Kory Lichtensteiger Better Than You Thi

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Postby DarthMonk » Mon May 14, 2012 5:02 pm

Cue the band.



You got it.

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Postby SouthLondonRedskin » Mon May 14, 2012 6:27 pm

DarthMonk wrote:
Cue the band.



You got it.

Image


Ahhhh, they all look so happy.

Must be a very, very, very old picture. 1921 maybe...???
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Re: Trent Williams & Kory Lichtensteiger Better Than You

Postby yupchagee » Mon May 14, 2012 9:02 pm

the poster wrote:
1niksder wrote:Trent Williams & Kory Lichtensteiger Better Than You Think?


Are we better off than we think?

I think so....

:feedback;


um..no. it's one of the worst offensive lines in the sport. there's more than 2 players on an offensive line, the 3 other spots are garbage. and those 2 "bright spots" are just one joint and one blow to the knee away from their careers being in jeopardy.

I don't even think pass blocking is their problem. their ok at pass blocking, probably middle of the road. it's run blocking where this line is , at least to me, perhaps the worst line in the entire sport.http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/40484/179/2012-offensive-line-rankings?pg=3



So how did Helu & Royster put up all those 100+ yard games?
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Postby SkinsJock » Mon May 14, 2012 9:08 pm

:thump: DFTFT - not ever
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Re: Trent Williams & Kory Lichtensteiger Better Than You

Postby yupchagee » Mon May 14, 2012 9:13 pm

the poster wrote:
1niksder wrote:Trent Williams & Kory Lichtensteiger Better Than You Think?


Are we better off than we think?

I think so....

:feedback;


um..no. it's one of the worst offensive lines in the sport. there's more than 2 players on an offensive line, the 3 other spots are garbage. and those 2 "bright spots" are just one joint and one blow to the knee away from their careers being in jeopardy.

I don't even think pass blocking is their problem. their ok at pass blocking, probably middle of the road. it's run blocking where this line is , at least to me, perhaps the worst line in the entire sport.

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/4 ... kings?pg=3
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Postby Countertrey » Mon May 14, 2012 9:45 pm

People actually think they can "get" a troll... they simply don't get it. Feeding is feeding... the caloric content matters not... it's still troll food.

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Postby UK Skins Fan » Tue May 15, 2012 3:13 am

Deadskins wrote:You French surrender too easily. :razz:

You're confused. This was Dunkirk, not Waterloo.

But then, you really only have the Alamo to celebrate, señor?

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Postby skinsfan#33 » Tue May 15, 2012 5:53 am

SkinsJock wrote:
Right now it is a Gods awful unit, one of the worst on the league in giving up QB hits.


I don't agree - it's not great but it is getting better - the ZBS and Mike will help him a lot

Look you can disagree with the "Gods awful" part because that is an opinion, but you can't disagree with the fact that the OL was one of the worst in the league in giving up QB his. You can't disagree with that because it isn't my opinion out is fact! Black and white. The Skins OL allowed more QB hits than every team in the NFL accept the CHawks and Rams.

Also, I don't expect the teams hits our sacks to go down with RG3 inserted, because history shows us QBs that hold the ball long and running QBs take more sacks and hits than most QBs. QBs typically do their worst in avoiding hits and sacks in their rookie season. Those are facts too

So if you want to go with your gut, great! I'll go with history and facts!
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Postby Irn-Bru » Tue May 15, 2012 12:11 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:
Right now it is a Gods awful unit, one of the worst on the league in giving up QB hits.

I don't agree - it's not great but it is getting better - the ZBS and Mike will help him a lot

Look you can disagree with the "Gods awful" part because that is an opinion, but you can't disagree with the fact that the OL was one of the worst in the league in giving up QB his. You can't disagree with that because it isn't my opinion out is fact! Black and white.


The problem is that "QB hits" is neither 100% attributable to the offensive line nor the best indicator of a line's performance.

That's like saying a receiver is "God awful" based solely on targets that fell incomplete — not only is it a metric almost no one uses in isolation when talking about best receivers (except when they have a pre-approved conclusion they are trying to support), but incompletions can be blamed on QBs and even partly on the offensive line, too (if the QB throws under pressure).

Instead of claiming that you are only going with facts, it might be a good idea to recognize the fact that you are making multiple generalizations and judgment calls here. This issue is not black and white.
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Postby Mississippiskinsfan2 » Tue May 15, 2012 12:44 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:
Right now it is a Gods awful unit, one of the worst on the league in giving up QB hits.

I don't agree - it's not great but it is getting better - the ZBS and Mike will help him a lot

Look you can disagree with the "Gods awful" part because that is an opinion, but you can't disagree with the fact that the OL was one of the worst in the league in giving up QB his. You can't disagree with that because it isn't my opinion out is fact! Black and white.


The problem is that "QB hits" is neither 100% attributable to the offensive line nor the best indicator of a line's performance.

That's like saying a receiver is "God awful" based solely on targets that fell incomplete — not only is it a metric almost no one uses in isolation when talking about best receivers (except when they have a pre-approved conclusion they are trying to support), but incompletions can be blamed on QBs and even partly on the offensive line, too (if the QB throws under pressure).

Instead of claiming that you are only going with facts, it might be a good idea to recognize the fact that you are making multiple generalizations and judgment calls here. This issue is not black and white.


No links or numbers to show us these are facts?

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Postby skinsfan#33 » Tue May 15, 2012 12:50 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:
Right now it is a Gods awful unit, one of the worst on the league in giving up QB hits.

I don't agree - it's not great but it is getting better - the ZBS and Mike will help him a lot

Look you can disagree with the "Gods awful" part because that is an opinion, but you can't disagree with the fact that the OL was one of the worst in the league in giving up QB his. You can't disagree with that because it isn't my opinion out is fact! Black and white.


The problem is that "QB hits" is neither 100% attributable to the offensive line nor the best indicator of a line's performance.

That's like saying a receiver is "God awful" based solely on targets that fell incomplete — not only is it a metric almost no one uses in isolation when talking about best receivers (except when they have a pre-approved conclusion they are trying to support), but incompletions can be blamed on QBs and even partly on the offensive line, too (if the QB throws under pressure).

Instead of claiming that you are only going with facts, it might be a good idea to recognize the fact that you are making multiple generalizations and judgment calls here. This issue is not black and white.


These I went by http://wp.advancednflstats.com/teamOL.php. These were QB hits that were detirmined to be on the OL.

I agree with you that nothing is 100% black and white when it comes to football, but I stated our OL was "one of the worst in the league in giving up QB hits" and that isn't debatable. It is pretty much cut and dry. Only two other teams OL gave up more hits.

I look at QB hits as a better indicator as to the OLs pass pro prowess than sacks. My reason is QBs have much more of an impact how many sacks they take then how many times they get hit!

Think of it this way. A bad OL (read AZ Cardinals OL when Warner was there) can look much better in pass pro if you look at sacks, because a QB can get rid of the ball before the pressure get to him, but he still gets hit. That is why I concentrate more on hits.

While I agree with what you said overall, what I stated about our OL giving up QB hits was to point out that while they were middle of the road in sacks allowed (Rex helped keep that low) they were TERRIBLE or as i said, Gods awful, in allowing QB hits.

Now could Rex avoided some of those QB hits? Sure! Could the play calling reduced those numbers some? Sure! But that still doesn't change the fact that they were on of the worst OL in the NFL in allowing QB hits.

And it is my opinion that RG3 will not improve that because he is a rookie, a QB that holds the ball to the last second, and he probably will run more than other pocket passers (which leads to more hits and sacks).

With that being said, I do think the Offensive stats will improve in all categories. Run blocking (both yards and yards/carry) and passing (yards and yards/attempt) and it will be mostly because MS and KS will use RG3's athetic ability to keep the defenses honest.
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Tue May 15, 2012 12:54 pm

Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:
Right now it is a Gods awful unit, one of the worst on the league in giving up QB hits.

I don't agree - it's not great but it is getting better - the ZBS and Mike will help him a lot

Look you can disagree with the "Gods awful" part because that is an opinion, but you can't disagree with the fact that the OL was one of the worst in the league in giving up QB his. You can't disagree with that because it isn't my opinion out is fact! Black and white.


The problem is that "QB hits" is neither 100% attributable to the offensive line nor the best indicator of a line's performance.

That's like saying a receiver is "God awful" based solely on targets that fell incomplete — not only is it a metric almost no one uses in isolation when talking about best receivers (except when they have a pre-approved conclusion they are trying to support), but incompletions can be blamed on QBs and even partly on the offensive line, too (if the QB throws under pressure).

Instead of claiming that you are only going with facts, it might be a good idea to recognize the fact that you are making multiple generalizations and judgment calls here. This issue is not black and white.


No links or numbers to show us these are facts?


There are plenty out there, Google for yourself if you don't believe me! Or you could look at the one in the post above.
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Postby UK Skins Fan » Tue May 15, 2012 1:06 pm

All very reasonable, and the line certainly wasn't good at keeping the quarterback clean.

But to say that the line overall was "god awful" still doesn't ring true to me. That denies the obvious improvement during the season in the running game. Again, that isn't ALL on the offensive line, but the fact is that gaps occurred and running backs ran through them.

I still maintain that the genius Boy Shanahan didn't commit to that improving running game enough, but even that didn't prevent the improvement from being obvious.
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Tue May 15, 2012 1:25 pm

UK Skins Fan wrote:All very reasonable, and the line certainly wasn't good at keeping the quarterback clean.

But to say that the line overall was "god awful" still doesn't ring true to me. That denies the obvious improvement during the season in the running game. Again, that isn't ALL on the offensive line, but the fact is that gaps occurred and running backs ran through them.


I never said that they were overall "gods awful" The paragraph before and the end of the sentence was talikng about QB hits. I was trying to convey that they were "gods awful" WRT QB hits.

And of course it is my stance that QB hits are a better indication od OL pass pro play than sacks allowed. The QB hits in that website I provided were graded to be the fault of the OL. NFL.com has the total QB hits allowed by the team as 108, while wp.advancedNFLstats has them at 92 hits allowed by the OL

UK Skins Fan wrote:I still maintain that the genius Boy Shanahan didn't commit to that improving running game enough, but even that didn't prevent the improvement from being obvious.


I agree. I wanted them to improve the OL at least some in FA. So now we have to rely on the players we had getting better (some have to over come serious injury concerns - Lichten and Brown) or a third rounder, fifth rounder or sixth rounder making major contributions.

I don't think that there was a play calling issue. KS didn't call a lot of running plays earlier in the season for two main reasons. It wasn't effective and they were down a lot. The back ups seemed to gel and the running game came on by the end of the season (or Helu and Royster are just that much better than Hightower!).
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Postby Mississippiskinsfan2 » Tue May 15, 2012 1:39 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:
Right now it is a Gods awful unit, one of the worst on the league in giving up QB hits.

I don't agree - it's not great but it is getting better - the ZBS and Mike will help him a lot

Look you can disagree with the "Gods awful" part because that is an opinion, but you can't disagree with the fact that the OL was one of the worst in the league in giving up QB his. You can't disagree with that because it isn't my opinion out is fact! Black and white.


The problem is that "QB hits" is neither 100% attributable to the offensive line nor the best indicator of a line's performance.

That's like saying a receiver is "God awful" based solely on targets that fell incomplete — not only is it a metric almost no one uses in isolation when talking about best receivers (except when they have a pre-approved conclusion they are trying to support), but incompletions can be blamed on QBs and even partly on the offensive line, too (if the QB throws under pressure).

Instead of claiming that you are only going with facts, it might be a good idea to recognize the fact that you are making multiple generalizations and judgment calls here. This issue is not black and white.


No links or numbers to show us these are facts?


There are plenty out there, Google for yourself if you don't believe me! Or you could look at the one in the post above.


If you're going to bring it up then you should show where you are getting it from or at least some numbers to go with it. Its not that I don't believe you just like to see these things for myself is all. Anyways its not all on the O-line. The QB and WR have a lot to do with that too..... and I think the FO showed us where they thought the problem was.

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