Bull...Greenbay got ROBBED by refs...

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Postby Irn-Bru » Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:49 am

Deadskins wrote:
grampi wrote:McCarthy should file a formal complaint against the league over the final play....a play that was solely responsible for the Packers losing the game, a play where the wrong call was clearly made and it's indisputable, a call the league cannot defend.

That's where you're wrong.


Actually, it turns out he's right:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100000 ... aking_news

When the players hit the ground in the end zone, the officials determined that both Tate and Jennings had possession of the ball. Under the rule for simultaneous catch, the ball belongs to Tate, the offensive player. The result of the play was a touchdown.

Replay Official Howard Slavin stopped the game for an instant replay review. The aspects of the play that were reviewable included if the ball hit the ground and who had possession of the ball. In the end zone, a ruling of a simultaneous catch is reviewable. That is not the case in the field of play, only in the end zone.


The play is reviewable. They just reviewed it and determined that there wasn't enough evidence to overturn the call:

Referee Wayne Elliott determined that no indisputable visual evidence existed to overturn the call on the field, and as a result, the on-field ruling of touchdown stood. The NFL Officiating Department reviewed the video today and supports the decision not to overturn the on-field ruling following the instant replay review.


I agree with grampi that it should not have been upheld. You might disagree and say that it was in fact a simultaneous catch, but the fact is that the play was reviewable and could have been overturned.
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Postby Deadskins » Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:55 am

Irn-Bru wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
grampi wrote:McCarthy should file a formal complaint against the league over the final play....a play that was solely responsible for the Packers losing the game, a play where the wrong call was clearly made and it's indisputable, a call the league cannot defend.

That's where you're wrong.


Actually, it turns out he's right:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100000 ... aking_news

When the players hit the ground in the end zone, the officials determined that both Tate and Jennings had possession of the ball. Under the rule for simultaneous catch, the ball belongs to Tate, the offensive player. The result of the play was a touchdown.

Replay Official Howard Slavin stopped the game for an instant replay review. The aspects of the play that were reviewable included if the ball hit the ground and who had possession of the ball. In the end zone, a ruling of a simultaneous catch is reviewable. That is not the case in the field of play, only in the end zone.


The play is reviewable. They just reviewed it and determined that there wasn't enough evidence to overturn the call:

Referee Wayne Elliott determined that no indisputable visual evidence existed to overturn the call on the field, and as a result, the on-field ruling of touchdown stood. The NFL Officiating Department reviewed the video today and supports the decision not to overturn the on-field ruling following the instant replay review.


I agree with grampi that it should not have been upheld. You might disagree and say that it was in fact a simultaneous catch, but the fact is that the play was reviewable and could have been overturned.

That's fine, but that's not what I said grampi was wrong about. I said the NFL could and, in fact, would defend that call, and you just provided the evidence. 8)
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Postby Deadskins » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:05 pm

ACW wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
tribeofjudah wrote:How could this have happened, you ask?

1. refs are totally incapable and intimidated
2. had they made the RIGHT call - they all would have been scalped by the fans
3. Can we say: Home Field Advantage?


It AIN'T right guys.......it JUST AIN'T RIGHT....!!!

We didn't get that home field advantage from the exact same officiating crew. :roll:
They reffed the Rams game, not the Bengals game.

So we did get the home field treatment. :evil:
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:08 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
tribeofjudah wrote:Gamblers beware: don't lose your $$$ to these refs.

I feel sorry for those who LOST money on this game...

The more bonehead play was by Jennings than the refs. Had he not gone for the ego interception and just knocked the ball down, it was game over. Going for the ego in a crowd invites a simultaneous catch opportunity. While I agree it was a bad call, it only happened because Jennings made even a dumber play to set it up.

There was a prominent game last year where a DB knocked down a ball on a Hail Mary . . . into the hands of a WR for the touchdown. Jennings had more than one Seattle WR below him, so there was probably as much risk in knocking down the ball as there was going for the INT. I don't think his move was a "boneheaded" or selfish play at all.


We're going to have to disagree on that, and completely so. That his spiking the ball was as dangerous as trying to catch it in a crowd when he loses the tie is unfathomable to me. That you have an example of one play is to me the logical equivalent of the story where one person got thrown clear of the car before it exploded, so not wearing a seatbelt saved their life, ergo it's as dangerous to wear one as not wear one. And on that play, there was no one below him. There were arms reaching for the ball, but no bodies. Spike = game over, Packers win.
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Postby Deadskins » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:11 pm

The way I see it, if you can catch the ball, that means no one else is going to. To say there might be a simultaneous situation is "to me the logical equivalent of the story where one person got thrown clear of the car before it exploded, so not wearing a seatbelt saved their life, ergo it's as dangerous to wear one as not wear one."
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:17 pm

Deadskins wrote:The way I see it, if you can catch the ball, that means no one else is going to. To say there might be a simultaneous situation is "to me the logical equivalent of the story where one person got thrown clear of the car before it exploded, so not wearing a seatbelt saved their life, ergo it's as dangerous to wear one as not wear one."


You can reach one arm to knock far further then you can reach two hands to catch. You seriously don't think the odds of a simultaneous catch (which you lose since you're defense) are a lot higher in a crowd? Certainly on that play, there was no chance the O caught the ball if he spiked it down.
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Postby Deadskins » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:46 pm

No, I don't. I could see maybe batting it out of bounds behind him, but typically, making the catch is just as safe as knocking it down.
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Postby grampi » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:47 pm

Deadskins wrote:
grampi wrote:McCarthy should file a formal complaint against the league over the final play....a play that was solely responsible for the Packers losing the game, a play where the wrong call was clearly made and it's indisputable, a call the league cannot defend.

That's where you're wrong.
Deadskins wrote:
Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 of the NFL rulebook discusses a simultaneous catch.

"If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control," the rule states.

The rulebook also states when a simultaneous catch is ruled, you can't review who made the catch. You can only review if it was complete or incomplete.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100000 ... le=HP11_cp

OK, that last line means that the refs didn't have the option of overturning the call."


Here's where you're wrong. There was no simultanious catch...at no time did ANY Seahawks player have two hands on the ball, or any way, shape, or form have control of the ball...Jennings was the only player who did....Tate never had more than one hand on the ball which was clearly shown in the replay...so the NFL has no evidence to back their argument....
Last edited by grampi on Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Deadskins » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:49 pm

And yet they still made that argument.
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:54 pm

I'm going to say something that a lot won't like or agree with. That call could easily been made incorrectly by the regular refs and it isn't even close to the worst officiated game or play I have ever seen.

I remember Bailey getting a pick in the endzone, then the WR put his hands on the ball much later than Tate did, Champ held on to the ball and the refs still gave the WR the TD.
Remember Kordel Stewart ruining out of the back of the end zone then catching a TD against the Colts in the AFC Championship, even though the ref that was standing over a yard out of bounds had to move out of Slashes way.
How about a Skins, Cardinals game in the late 90s were the refs were so bad that Dave McGinnest(sp?) the Cards HC credited the refs for the win in his post game press conference. That was the game where Matt Turk punted a ball that was blocked by the Cards, another Cardinal made made contact with it past the line pasts scrimmage, making the ball a live ball, the Skins recovered the muffed punt and the ball was given back to Arizona. The reason they said, Turk "fumbled" the ball and didn't every punt it. They reviewed the play and since you couldn't actually see Turk make contact with the ball (but you could clearly see the ball didn't hit the ground) they said they couldn't over turn the play. That was just one example of 4 or 5 plays during that game that was blatantly incorrect in the favor of the Cardinals. Again, the Cards HC said, "Thank God for the refs or we wouldn't have won that game!".

I could go on for hours. The normal refs are just as capable of being incompetent as the replacements. To me the biggest difference is the total lack of control the scab refs have over game management and player/coach interaction. Thay had been horrendous. The refs have lost any control they ever had.

But as far as calling the game (other than not knowing the length of a 15 yard unsportsmanlike penalty or when to do a ten second run off (regular refs have screwed that up too)) these refs are just like the normal refs. It wasn't the replacement refs that got the overtime coin flip wrong in a Steelers game or allow a Touchdown to be reviewed AFTER the Skins (and Browns) had already run another play (the extra point)
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:55 pm

I'm going to say something that a lot won't like or agree with. That call could easily been made incorrectly by the regular refs and it isn't even close to the worst officiated game or play I have ever seen.

I remember Bailey getting a pick in the endzone, then the WR put his hands on the ball much later than Tate did, Champ held on to the ball and the refs still gave the WR the TD.
Remember Kordel Stewart ruining out of the back of the end zone then catching a TD against the Colts in the AFC Championship, even though the ref that was standing over a yard out of bounds had to move out of Slashes way.
How about a Skins, Cardinals game in the late 90s were the refs were so bad that Dave McGinnest(sp?) the Cards HC credited the refs for the win in his post game press conference. That was the game where Matt Turk punted a ball that was blocked by the Cards, another Cardinal made made contact with it past the line pasts scrimmage, making the ball a live ball, the Skins recovered the muffed punt and the ball was given back to Arizona. The reason they said, Turk "fumbled" the ball and didn't every punt it. They reviewed the play and since you couldn't actually see Turk make contact with the ball (but you could clearly see the ball didn't hit the ground) they said they couldn't over turn the play. That was just one example of 4 or 5 plays during that game that was blatantly incorrect in the favor of the Cardinals. Again, the Cards HC said, "Thank God for the refs or we wouldn't have won that game!".

I could go on for hours. The normal refs are just as capable of being incompetent as the replacements. To me the biggest difference is the total lack of control the scab refs have over game management and player/coach interaction. Thay had been horrendous. The refs have lost any control they ever had.

But as far as calling the game (other than not knowing the length of a 15 yard unsportsmanlike penalty or when to do a ten second run off (regular refs have screwed that up too)) these refs are just like the normal refs. It wasn't the replacement refs that got the overtime coin flip wrong in a Steelers game or allow a Touchdown to be reviewed AFTER the Skins (and Browns) had already run another play (the extra point)
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Postby ACW » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:08 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
tribeofjudah wrote:Gamblers beware: don't lose your $$$ to these refs.

I feel sorry for those who LOST money on this game...

The more bonehead play was by Jennings than the refs. Had he not gone for the ego interception and just knocked the ball down, it was game over. Going for the ego in a crowd invites a simultaneous catch opportunity. While I agree it was a bad call, it only happened because Jennings made even a dumber play to set it up.

There was a prominent game last year where a DB knocked down a ball on a Hail Mary . . . into the hands of a WR for the touchdown. Jennings had more than one Seattle WR below him, so there was probably as much risk in knocking down the ball as there was going for the INT. I don't think his move was a "boneheaded" or selfish play at all.
You mean this one from 2 years ago? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlvOUG8nuZ4
Gus Johnson FTW! :lol:

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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:26 pm

ACW wrote:You mean this one from 2 years ago? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlvOUG8nuZ4
Gus Johnson FTW! :lol:


By down, I meant towards the ground, not the other "down." Thanks for the video!
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Postby Redskin in Canada » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:38 pm

Any argument for patience with the scabs is gone.

The reaction is too strong everywhere and deservedly so.

The NFL 32 dwarfs and Ginger Hammer are looking for a hole to hide. They wanted an incompetent performance which changed the outcome of the game and they clearly got it last night.
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Postby Irn-Bru » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:38 pm

ACW wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:
tribeofjudah wrote:Gamblers beware: don't lose your $$$ to these refs.

I feel sorry for those who LOST money on this game...

The more bonehead play was by Jennings than the refs. Had he not gone for the ego interception and just knocked the ball down, it was game over. Going for the ego in a crowd invites a simultaneous catch opportunity. While I agree it was a bad call, it only happened because Jennings made even a dumber play to set it up.

There was a prominent game last year where a DB knocked down a ball on a Hail Mary . . . into the hands of a WR for the touchdown. Jennings had more than one Seattle WR below him, so there was probably as much risk in knocking down the ball as there was going for the INT. I don't think his move was a "boneheaded" or selfish play at all.
You mean this one from 2 years ago? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlvOUG8nuZ4
Gus Johnson FTW! :lol:


Yes, that's the one I had in mind. I also remember the Skins having something like that happen, and ARE was the beneficiary (though he didn't end up scoring, and it was only half-time).

If Kazoo can give me more than 1 or 2 examples of Hail Mary passes where the defender either went for the catch which allowed the offense a TD, or a "simultaneous" catch happened, then I will change my mind. But this is the first I've ever heard of a simultaneous catch on a last-play Hail Mary, and I'm just not aware of any attempted INTs that you could say resulted in a TD.

Normally people say DBs are selfish if it's 4th down and they go for the pick instead of the knockdown. I do buy that argument, because it has to do with field position. But I don't buy the idea that going for the INT is riskier because a simultaneous catch is possible (which is like the seat belt example) or that it's led to game-winning TDs. I suspect the odds of a mishap with either strategy are probably about the same.

And for the record, I hate Gus Johnson's style of announcing. He's everything that's wrong with American pro sports commentary, though Joe Buck might actually win that award if I was the one handing it out. :D
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