What is the most important cause for the DEFENSE collapse?

Talk about the Washington Redskins here. Do you bleed burgundy and gold?

What is the most important cause for the DEFENSE collapse?

Lack of Draft and Free Agency effort by the FO
1
2%
Injuries and suspensions
10
22%
Poor 3-4 implementation & game planning by J. Hasleet
18
40%
Poor execution by an inept and incompetent bunch
9
20%
Cap penalty imposed by Mara & his puppet goddahell
7
16%
 
Total votes : 45
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Postby Red_One43 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:07 pm

Haslett and the 2-4-5 package defense

The Steelers went to town on our defense this past Sunday. They appeared to deliberately spread out the Redskins defense with multiple wide receiver sets to bring out Jim Haslett's 2-4-5 sub-package. That would be two defensive lineman, four linebackers and five defensive backs. Every time this group is sent on the field, the Redskins almost always send a four man rush (two linebackers and two defensive linemen) while dropping the rest into a zone coverage. The Steelers knew this and took full advantage. On their second quarter touchdown drive, they ran a no-huddle offense to keep this 2-4-5 package on the field for as long as possible.


The 3-4 defense that the Steelers themselves use is designed to bring plenty of pressure and force quick (often bad) decisions by opposing quarterbacks. But instead of using the Steelers 3-4 defense, Haslett changes to this 2-4-5 package and goes extremely conservative.



You can point to the injuries of guys like Orakpo, and sure, he would definitely perform better than anyone else we have in this package. But as I said earlier, everyone gets injuries. In my opinion, it's down to the coordinator to be able to get creative with ways to generate pressure within his scheme to help cover up the loss of injured players. Instead we rely on a standard four-man rush without a single stunt. Not to mention that against the no-huddle, we can't even sub out the defenders to freshen up those four rushers.

In today's NFL, you cannot be predictable or you'll be run over. Right now, that's exactly what's happening to Jim Haslett's defense. Unfortunately, until the Redskins are either able to come up with a perfect coverage scheme (never going to happen) or some inventive blitz packages, then we're going to continue bending and breaking.


Sounds like this article is saying Haslett shares a lot of the blame. If it is talent why the Redskins defense is so bad, then how is the Colts defense performing better in a year that they switched to the 3-4?

I good share of what is going wrong with this D is Haslett. This article mentions predictability. Didn't Jay Gruden say something about predictability concerning Haslett?
Last edited by Red_One43 on Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Red_One43 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:26 pm

Greg Cosell, NFL Films, talks about he Redskin D on ESPN980

Limited by talent.

Missing Rak.

Not able to generate pressure.

Lineman cannot win one on one battles.

Fletcher and Riley not good blitzers.

Says secondary is OK, but later admits it is a wreck as indicated by how much Haz is moving folks around.

Haz has gone from extreme blitzing to extreme converage

He feels that the D is caught between a rock and hard place in respect to scheme to get pressure and risk the secondary getting burnt or scheme to cover and risk giving the passer all the time in the world.

This report seems to say it is hopeless for our D.

I respect Gregg Cosell, but I also respect John Keim and him finding out that Haz's schemes are more difficult than the Steelers. Guys with less talent need to play a basic defense to allow them to play more on instinct rather than always have to be thinking. We often see guys out of position especially in the flats. That indicates that guys are having too think too much.

In the article posted earlier, Smoot claims that Haz is "pigheaded" and refuses to get away from his schemes. He might mix it up, but he always stays with his scheme. The scheme isn't working. I do not accept that it is Hopeless in DC.

Again, if it is mostly a talent issue then why is the Colts' D doing better than us in the first year of their 3-4 D?

Check out the Colts' defensive roster and see if any of these guys scare you.

This first year 3-4 defense is playing better (not great but better) than our D which played 7 out of 11 starters from 2011. An eighth player if you count you count Doughty who also started some last year.

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Postby Deadskins » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:17 pm

Red_One43 wrote:Haslett and the 2-4-5 package defense

The Steelers went to town on our defense this past Sunday. They appeared to deliberately spread out the Redskins defense with multiple wide receiver sets to bring out Jim Haslett's 2-4-5 sub-package. That would be two defensive lineman, four linebackers and five defensive backs. Every time this group is sent on the field, the Redskins almost always send a four man rush (two linebackers and two defensive linemen) while dropping the rest into a zone coverage. The Steelers knew this and took full advantage. On their second quarter touchdown drive, they ran a no-huddle offense to keep this 2-4-5 package on the field for as long as possible.


The 3-4 defense that the Steelers themselves use is designed to bring plenty of pressure and force quick (often bad) decisions by opposing quarterbacks. But instead of using the Steelers 3-4 defense, Haslett changes to this 2-4-5 package and goes extremely conservative.



You can point to the injuries of guys like Orakpo, and sure, he would definitely perform better than anyone else we have in this package. But as I said earlier, everyone gets injuries. In my opinion, it's down to the coordinator to be able to get creative with ways to generate pressure within his scheme to help cover up the loss of injured players. Instead we rely on a standard four-man rush without a single stunt. Not to mention that against the no-huddle, we can't even sub out the defenders to freshen up those four rushers.

In today's NFL, you cannot be predictable or you'll be run over. Right now, that's exactly what's happening to Jim Haslett's defense. Unfortunately, until the Redskins are either able to come up with a perfect coverage scheme (never going to happen) or some inventive blitz packages, then we're going to continue bending and breaking.


Sounds like this article is saying Haslett shares a lot of the blame. If it is talent why the Redskins defense is so bad, then how is the Colts defense performing better in a year that they switched to the 3-4?

I good share of what is going wrong with this D is Haslett. This article mentions predictability. Didn't Jay Gruden say something about predictability conerning Haslett?

I hate reading this.
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Postby SkinsJock » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:58 am

I'm NOT a Hazlett fan but ....

Mike and Jim HAVE TO find a way to "git 'er done" - with this offense we just need some defense :wink:


btw - I'm not a fan of Mike, Jim or Kyle as far as coaching or game planning is concerned but .. these are our guys - they ARE better than most
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Postby markshark84 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:32 am

Red_One43 wrote:Haslett and the 2-4-5 package defense

The Steelers went to town on our defense this past Sunday. They appeared to deliberately spread out the Redskins defense with multiple wide receiver sets to bring out Jim Haslett's 2-4-5 sub-package. That would be two defensive lineman, four linebackers and five defensive backs. Every time this group is sent on the field, the Redskins almost always send a four man rush (two linebackers and two defensive linemen) while dropping the rest into a zone coverage. The Steelers knew this and took full advantage. On their second quarter touchdown drive, they ran a no-huddle offense to keep this 2-4-5 package on the field for as long as possible.


The 3-4 defense that the Steelers themselves use is designed to bring plenty of pressure and force quick (often bad) decisions by opposing quarterbacks. But instead of using the Steelers 3-4 defense, Haslett changes to this 2-4-5 package and goes extremely conservative.



You can point to the injuries of guys like Orakpo, and sure, he would definitely perform better than anyone else we have in this package. But as I said earlier, everyone gets injuries. In my opinion, it's down to the coordinator to be able to get creative with ways to generate pressure within his scheme to help cover up the loss of injured players. Instead we rely on a standard four-man rush without a single stunt. Not to mention that against the no-huddle, we can't even sub out the defenders to freshen up those four rushers.

In today's NFL, you cannot be predictable or you'll be run over. Right now, that's exactly what's happening to Jim Haslett's defense. Unfortunately, until the Redskins are either able to come up with a perfect coverage scheme (never going to happen) or some inventive blitz packages, then we're going to continue bending and breaking.


Sounds like this article is saying Haslett shares a lot of the blame. If it is talent why the Redskins defense is so bad, then how is the Colts defense performing better in a year that they switched to the 3-4?

I good share of what is going wrong with this D is Haslett. This article mentions predictability. Didn't Jay Gruden say something about predictability concerning Haslett?


Honestly, lets get real --- Hazs' D is predictable because it is extremely one dimensional . It doesn't have the talent to create unpredicatability. You need talent or at least some talent at all of the 3 D areas (DL, LB, DB) to prevent potential defensive exposures. In the beginning of the year, Haz was critized for bringing too much pressure and how it hurt our secondarys ability to provide adequate coverage. After the STL game, teams realized how bad our 2ndary was and started throwing like crazy. Over our 8 games this season, opponent QBs average 42 pass attempts a game!!!!!!! That is CRAZY :shock: high.

This team has literally no secondary. When you have no secondary, you have to either go extremely aggressive and bring the house (like everyone going to the QB with DBs in one-on-one coverage) on every play or go conservative with a 2-4-5 D. He tried bringing the house, couldn't get pressure and a mediocre Bradford had his best game of the year. Now he has decided to go conservative since even if he brings the house, we're still not getting pressure on the QB. Only Kerrigan has been able to do anything. He really has no choice but to stuff the 2ndary with bodies and hope that someone happens to be in the correct area.

It is no secret where the weak spots of this D are. Teams know it. That is why -- even when they are up by 2 scores -- opponents still throw. Expect to see at least 40-50 attempts by opposing QBs for the rest of the year.

I am in no way saying that Haz is a good DC or that we shouldn't replace him --- however, he is in a no win situation due to the personnel on the field. When you have:
1) a 2ndary comprised of: 1 horrible CB, 2 horrible DBs, and 1 avg at best CB
2) a DL that can't provide any pressure whatsoever
3) a 4 person LB core with 1 above avg LB, 1 aging vet, 1 replacement player, and 1 avg LB

There is very little (really nothing) you can do as a DC to create unpredictability. Haz knows opponents are going to throw 75-80% of the time since it has been highly successful against this D and when you have a DL that can't apply pressure, being aggressive doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure there is anything anyone could do to make this D unpredictable outside of getting new players. He can simplify the D, but we are 8 games into the season --- the transition alone would take a couple games; it wouldn't help.
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Postby Deadskins » Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:17 pm

markshark84 wrote:There is very little (really nothing) you can do as a DC to create unpredictability.

Tell that to Dick Lebeau.
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Postby markshark84 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:26 pm

Deadskins wrote:
markshark84 wrote:There is very little (really nothing) you can do as a DC to create unpredictability.

Tell that to Dick Lebeau.


Took my quote out of context. That statement was predicated on the fact that predictability is unattainable here because we don't have a D with any talent at the DB position or a DL that can apply pressure. As such, we don't have enough defensive options to work with.

Dick Lebeau doesn't have a worthless set of DBs or a DL that can't apply pressure. Lebeau has enough talent to be creative. PITTs D has much more talent and depth than ours. He also is arguably the best DC in the game --- Haz is not. I find it unfair to hold Haz to that standard because if you did there would only be 3 or 4 DCs that would hold up.
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Postby frankcal20 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:11 pm

Want to get in on this. I voted to the cap penalties because it was known that the Skins wanted to go after a top level Corner. We were set on the Dline and the LB corps were set as well. Injuries happen to everyone but Orakpo and Carriker being out really does hurt us a ton because they were statistically our most competitive guys at getting QB pressure last year (I believe).

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Postby Deadskins » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:30 pm

markshark84 wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
markshark84 wrote:There is very little (really nothing) you can do as a DC to create unpredictability.

Tell that to Dick Lebeau.


Took my quote out of context. That statement was predicated on the fact that predictability is unattainable here because we don't have a D with any talent at the DB position or a DL that can apply pressure. As such, we don't have enough defensive options to work with.

Dick Lebeau doesn't have a worthless set of DBs or a DL that can't apply pressure. Lebeau has enough talent to be creative. PITTs D has much more talent and depth than ours. He also is arguably the best DC in the game --- Haz is not. I find it unfair to hold Haz to that standard because if you did there would only be 3 or 4 DCs that would hold up.

I disagree. Lebeau's 3-4 is not predicatable like Haslett's is. You never know who's coming and who's dropping back in coverage. They also use a lot more stunts than the Skins do.
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Postby RayNAustin » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:06 pm

Well, I'm a practical sort of guy that likes to deal with facts and evidence, more than feelings and speculations.

Fact #1, of the 10 members of the 2010 secondary, we have only two players on the 2012 roster .... Hall and Doughty. The rest are gone.

Fact #2, of the secondary players on the 2011 roster, we have 2 more holdover to this year's roster, Wilson and Gomes, plus Hall and Doughty, and the rest are gone.

2012 we added Crawford, Griffin, Meriweather, Minnifield, Pugh, Jackson, and Jones and a new secondary coach, Morris.

Jackson was suspended, meriweather hurt, Crawford hurt, Gomes hurt, and Hall and Doughty and Wilson are not exactly in line for the pro bowl.

So I'd have to say the new players in the secondary and the new secondary coach should be the most likely suspects, rather than Haslett's scheme, which seemed to work pretty well with the other players in 2010-2011. Maybe that's just silly of me, but that's how I see it.

Then, you add in the injuries to the front 7, and the impact on the pass rush to that mix, and you have a bad situation .... very little continuity with more than half of the secondary new players, and that's where the problem most likely is.

And given the dreadful play of the DBs that haven't been hurt or suspended, or injuring themselves in warmup accidents .... it's hard to fault Haslett for not blitzing more to increase this lack of pass rush since they can't seem to stop the passing game with 6 & 7 dropping into coverage ... it's unlikely that 4 or 5 would have a chance.

Look, when you have that much turnover with your roster, including the coach ... how can you possibly dismiss that, and look elsewhere for the answers?

To me, that just doesn't make a lot of sense.

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Postby Red_One43 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:54 pm

markshark84 wrote:There is very little (really nothing) you can do as a DC to create unpredictability. Haz knows opponents are going to throw 75-80% of the time since it has been highly successful against this D and when you have a DL that can't apply pressure, being aggressive doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure there is anything anyone could do to make this D unpredictable outside of getting new players. He can simplify the D, but we are 8 games into the season --- the transition alone would take a couple games; it wouldn't help.


Colts DC would probably challenge you that there is little he could do to make his D unpredictable. A few posts back I posted a link with the Colts lack of talent, first year transitioning, 3-4 Defense that is ranked about 10 spots above us, but good enough to give their O some support. See Jay Gruden who said Haz has always been predictable.

Did you read the link I provided in this thread by John Keim that picked the brain of someone who knows the Steeler D and compared it to what Haz is doing? For that simplification, there is not a transition period. You simply stop trying to trying to be so confusing on every down. The Steelers run a basic package for almost every down except third. You are right changing to a 49er type 3-4 might take take time.

Sure, if Haz had better players, he would be doing better. That is true of any DC. It has been said that Ray Lewis got a couple DC's head coaching jobs. Mike Nolan probably was one when he took the Niners before Singletary. Look at Spags with NO. He was thought of as the best when he left the Giants. You know his story, but this guy with the Colts, in the his first year of a 3-4 (remember Haz's excuses in his first year with the Skins - it take three years).

The best DCs at least make their defenses respectable. There is something flawed with the way the Skins D is being run. How much blames goes where, we don't know, but we know the buck stops at Haz and then Shanny's desk.
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Postby Deadskins » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:57 pm

I voted injuries and suspensions, but it's not like the defense was stellar in 2010 and 2011. Look back at the post game threads from the last two years, and there were plenty of complaints about the defense giving up game winning drives. Now, I personally think a lot of that had to do with an inept offense that had the D on the field way too often after three and outs, and the D being just too tired to stop the opposition. But the D bent and broke way too often in the past as well.
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Postby Red_One43 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:44 pm

More from Keim on the defense
I know the D has had some injuries; I also just watched a defense last week in Pittsburgh that has had injuries and is not getting much of a pass rush and is still in the top 5. Coaching is so much more than Xs and Os. Talked to one longtime coach who put that low on the list of things that matter most when coaching (in-game adjustments rates much higher). I just think Dick LeBeau is a hell of a coordinator. His guys play fast and sound and it’s clear they know exactly what they’re doing.


In game adjustments? I have read a number of posts talking about the lack of adjustments from Haz. Smoot referred to the reason why there have been a lack of in game adjustments as being Haz being pigheaded (posted earlier on this thread).

In Week 2, letting Danny Amendola catch 12 passing before making the adjustment was a good example of a slow to no in game adjustment.

As far as the Steelers players knowing exactly what to do, Shanny gives the reason as, the Steelers have run the same system for 20 years. It sounds like Shanny is saying the fix is in a couple of years when this defense becomes a fixture. Shanny: Don't worry, we'll get this thing fixed within 5 years. Year 4 is not looking so good either.

More from John Keim on the the complex way Haz is handling things
From Redskins Mailbag letter to Trevor:
One complaint I heard from players after last season was how the defense –and some of its rules – changed too often last season. That led to occasional breakdowns in games. Nobody is off the hook for this mess.


Simplify the D!!!

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Postby oneman56 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:33 am

chiefhog44 wrote:
oneman56 wrote:Show me a FO that loses it's best pass rusher, best run stuffer and most talented DB and doesn't fall off defensively? I'm not saying they couldn't have prepared better (there's always room to be better) and i'm not saying we should be last against the pass but these are significant injuries. Again, see Baltimore. See Pitt w/o Harrison, Polamalu and let's say Kiesel. These are tough injuries to overcome. Haslett has to share some blame however we were already thin defensively and couldn't afford these injuries. We focused the off-season and draft to the offensive side which was needed and need to do the same this year to the secondary and we need to find another pass rusher to compliment Rak and Kerrigan.


Even IF, for arguments sake, Carriker, Rak and Merriweather are our best run stuffer, pass rusher, and DB, it doesn't mean that they aren't hard to replace. Are those players you mention on the Steelers hard to replace? Absolutely, but one is a hall of famer, and the others are perenial all pro's. Merriweather is a journeyman player, Rak is an avove average LB, but he's not even in the top 3 pass rushing LB's in our division, and Carriker is above average as well but not a perenial all pro. So finding a replacement for bad to above average players should not be as difficult or as impactful as losing players like you mention. We need depth. We hoped we had it in the secondary and it turned out not happening.



I don't disagree, i am saying they are hard to replace. I completely agree we need more depth i'm just saying that if you take 3 top d starters from any team it would be a challenge for that team.

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Postby oneman56 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:33 am

chiefhog44 wrote:
oneman56 wrote:Show me a FO that loses it's best pass rusher, best run stuffer and most talented DB and doesn't fall off defensively? I'm not saying they couldn't have prepared better (there's always room to be better) and i'm not saying we should be last against the pass but these are significant injuries. Again, see Baltimore. See Pitt w/o Harrison, Polamalu and let's say Kiesel. These are tough injuries to overcome. Haslett has to share some blame however we were already thin defensively and couldn't afford these injuries. We focused the off-season and draft to the offensive side which was needed and need to do the same this year to the secondary and we need to find another pass rusher to compliment Rak and Kerrigan.


Even IF, for arguments sake, Carriker, Rak and Merriweather are our best run stuffer, pass rusher, and DB, it doesn't mean that they aren't hard to replace. Are those players you mention on the Steelers hard to replace? Absolutely, but one is a hall of famer, and the others are perenial all pro's. Merriweather is a journeyman player, Rak is an avove average LB, but he's not even in the top 3 pass rushing LB's in our division, and Carriker is above average as well but not a perenial all pro. So finding a replacement for bad to above average players should not be as difficult or as impactful as losing players like you mention. We need depth. We hoped we had it in the secondary and it turned out not happening.



I don't disagree, i am saying they are hard to replace. I completely agree we need more depth i'm just saying that if you take 3 top d starters from any team it would be a challenge for that team.

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