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Postby ACW » Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:43 pm

SkinsJock wrote:
ACW wrote:And someone please explain to me the PI before Cam rushed it in. Not catchable.


there are good calls and bad calls - do you really think that this stupid call made any difference whatsoever?
Not really, but who knows?

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Postby spenser » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:52 pm

RayNAustin wrote:
markshark84 wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:I was against keeping Banks on the roster going into this year, and I hope by now the coaches agree with me. They took a gamble on him and lost, and it's time to give up on the idea that he has long-term potential. With the rule change on kickoffs and our porous defense, he only has half the chances to do anything, and while that's been enough to make a half-dozen boneheaded plays he has yet to create a positive game-changing moment.

Meanwhile, the trick plays on offense with him have gone from "that wasn't too bad, I guess" to flacid.

Whatever edge he brought on returns is gone — I'm guessing due to the injuries he's battled. And with our best receivers either injured or not performing, we badly need that roster spot for a real NFL WR.

If I'm Shanahan, I call Banks into my office this morning, thank him for everything he's done the past three years, cut him, and give Terrence Austin a call.


Agree about cutting Banks. He has done nothing for us this year. I cringe everytime he touches the ball; whether it is because he runs all over the field for 1 yd or less or because I am afraid he will fumble.

I used to love BB, but with the rule changes, there is no longer a reason to keep a "return specialist" unless they can also play another position well. Banks can't play the WR position and has not produced in the pistol or triple option formations.

Right now we need to either cut Robinson, Briscoe, or Banks and bring in another WR because our current WRs just can't catch the ball. It is embarassing and will hurt RGIII's confidence. Did you see all the bad screen and short passes RGIII threw yesterday --- I can almost gauarantee that the horrendous WR play was a factor in hurting his rythm on those plays.


Mark, Banks is really a non-issue in the greater scheme of things ... he's just one of the symptoms of the disease. And that disease is the incompetent personnel decisions and or how the staff chooses to use the players.

Let's take a few of the areas and analyze them ... starting with receivers (since you mentioned Banks). Briscoe, Robinson, Hankerson ... none of these three have actually produced much of anything .. and certainly no one should expect a Victor Cruz or a Nicks to pop out of this group at this point. But we released our 2011 leading receiver Gaffney, who turned out to be a sure handed possession receiver in a struggling offense that was highlighted by a carousel of incompetence at the QB position. We also chose to release Anthony Armstrong who really didn't see much action at all last year (inexplicably) even though in 2010 he was emerging as a real dangerous weapon ... 2010 he had 44 catches, 871 yards, 3 TD's, and 19.8 yard per catch average. That's a huge average ... and AA would have had more TD catches were he ever to actually have received passes in stride instead of having to sit down and field most of these deep balls like a center fielder, as I clearly recall. So why he was just not used in 2011 is probably because neither Rex or Beck were actually able to complete a pass beyond 10-15 yards past the line .. and Armstrong collected dust on the sideline. We could use that type of deep threat now, since no one else seems to be capable of getting behind coverage except the old man, Moss, who occasionally does. If Robinson does, you can expect him to drop it. So I'm sorry ... but I'm having a real hard time with the idea that Banks is this glaring problem with Briscoe and Robinson doing nothing. To be honest .. when you have a speciality player like Banks, the defense keys on him on those rare cases that he actually lines up in the regular offense, which isn't very often, and is usually a big tip off that he's in there for a reason ... DUH. It would be like putting RG3 out there as a holder for a FG attempt ... FAKE ... WATCH THE FAKE. This is the level of cleverness of our offensive coach, which isn't very clever at all, really ... who's rather predictable behavior has been mentioned on more than one occasion by opposing defenses, and why we are seeing a week to week decline in offensive production, even with the Black Jesus, and his disciple "Moses" Morris who parts defenses like the Red Sea.

Now, the secondary ... horrible, pathetic, embarrassing, take your pick ... is this really Hasletts fault? Did he choose Williams or Meriweather as the better players over Landry .. or was that a business decision? Did he choose to trade Justine Tryon because he was overflowing with great DBs? And who picked Tanard Jackson, knowing he might very well not even be permitted to play this year? Two weeks from now, New England will have solid cover guy and former Bucs DB playing for them, for a 4th round pick. Hall and Doughty are the only DBs on the roster from 2010. The changes made here have not worked out so well .. actually .. it's an unmitigated disaster. We simply do not have a Free Safety ... and neither of our other safeties can cover a TE. Our DB's sometimes look like the three stooges ... and three or four times each game we see the opposition's #1 or #2 receiver running free in the secondary with no defender even in the television frame. And this happening with a brand new Secondary Coach just hired this season too?

Now the front 7 ... supposed to be our major strength and was supposed to be where we had great depth .... take away Rak and Carriker, and we cannot make the slightest push against anyone's offensive line ... all opponents need to do is handle Kerrigan, and they have all day to throw, and it wouldn't matter if we had an entire backfield filled with several Greens and Baileys ... and let's face it ... we still do not have the dominant type of linebackers that make a 34 defense great ... you need speed and ability to cover, and we are being picked apart in those areas too.

And just who was it that insisted on rebuilding our 43 defense into a 34 defense, requiring wholesale personnel changes in the front 7, at the expense of the secondary and offensive personnel which desperately needed that focus? That's why we've had to manage a patchwork o-line .. and use other peoples 3's and 4's as our 1's and 2's at both receiver and secondary.

You just can't absorb the number of personnel errors that we've seen over the past three years ... and the few really good players added cannot make up for the dozen disastrous decisions. The larry Johnson type deals ... we sign him to a three year deal, and then release him after 2 games and 5 carries. Then there was the NcNabb fiasco, and the Beck fiasco .. the list goes on and on and on. Is everyone's memory 60 seconds long? Am I the only one who remembers these major fiascos and foolish maneuvers?

Well ... they've been continuing right through this year too. We have the kicker fiasco ... starting with Gano .. we bring in Rackers .... we keep Gano ... and the moment Cundiff hits the waiver wire, we sign him and drop Gano like an empty coke bottle ... and everyone was saying "Huh? This doesn't look like a very smart move .. why would they do that?" And of course, we know what the results were .... ANOTHER FIASCO.

Now God forbid that anyone named Dan or Vinny would have presided over all of these FIASCOS .... the McNabbs, Becks, Grossmans, Johnsons, Cundiffs, etc., etc., because the experts here would have been ragging on these things ENDLESSLY and MERCILESSLY ..... but because it is Super Bowl Mike ... it's just a few wrinkles that the man needs time to iron out?

NO .... he's the source of the wrinkles, and his XBOX Madden 2012 offensive coordinator son has now found a way to not score points with a fourth QB in less than three years ... and we know FOR CERTAIN that it is not RG3's inability or lack of talent.

But using RG3 as a receiver? Let our receiver be the QB and send our franchise QB out as a receiver? Really? Really, Kyle? Really Mike? Well, the big shocker here was not that they'd do such an asinine thing ... that's no surprise at all ... what floored me was that Mike Shanahan actually for once admitted that ... "After looking at that on film, it was a dumb thing to do, and we won't be doing that again". Really Mike .... you had to see that on film? Had to see a free safety load up and deliver a body blast to your franchise QB down field to realize it was a dumb thing to do? Most people, Mike, with an IQ larger than their egos and shoe size could have told you it was a dumb thing to do, before the game even started. But for those of us who have actually been paying attention ... we were not surprised .... because over the course of the past 2 1/2 seasons, we've seen a lot of dumb things done .... we're getting so used to it .. some of us actually are now forgetting what dumb looks like.

Sorry for the rant ... but somebody has to say it.


Yea...... I'm gonna go ahead and align myself with RayNAustin on this one. I'm on the fence because part of me wants to believe we have just been snake bit with injuries, and that maybe we are closer that it may appear. Get a Safety in the draft, Free agent CB, Oline depth.. and we are close. BUT... then RayNAustin pretty much Ass Blasts Shanahan back to the stone age, and everything he points out is pretty irrefutable.

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Postby crazyhorse1 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:32 am

SkinsJock wrote:To CLL's post - I agree, the call came at a bad time and as Mike P. said on air - the call should have been changed, the refs should have sucked it up

as far as advocating for a coaching change - not so fast

I do not like what we've seen for the most part of the past 9 games but at the same time I'm not so sure I'd say it's ALL due to the coaching

I'm not a fan of the HC - I'm really disappointed in what we've seen from the players due to the 'leadership' of both Kyle and Jim ..

that being said - I'm not looking for all out house-cleaning here .... well ..... not just yet


not good though - especially with an owner like we have who does not have a SINGLE clue about owning an NFL franchise


Sorry (maybe not) to bring it up...but your relentless knee-jerk support of Shannys and Allen has irked me from the start (which you know). I hope that you are now ready to repent. S and A, far from the "professionals" you thought them to be, were clueless from the beginning--witness: the switch to the 3-4, ignoring the offense, passing up quality free agents, allowing McNabb to show up here and letting Grossman on the field, saying goodbye to the wrong DB's, etc. No, my friend, they had no master plan.

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Postby markshark84 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:10 pm

RayNAustin wrote:
Mark, you know that I generally make statements that I can back up with facts ... and the fact is, not one receiver on this 2012 roster is on pace to pass Armstrong's production in 2010 ... not one. And Armstrong was the #3 receiver for the Redskins in 2010 ... here's the stats:

(2010)
Moss - 93 rec - 1115 yards - 12.0 yard average - 6 TDs
C.C - 77 rec - 847 yards - 11.0 yard average - 3 TDs
A.A - 44 rec - 871 yards - 19.8 yard average - 3 TDs

Morgan is on pace for about 6 or 7 more receptions than than Armstrong had ... but not yards, and not scoring (Morgan has Zero TD) and he is our #1 receiver this year. Here's a comparison with projected totals (current totals in perens)

(2012)
Morgan - 51 rec (29) - 549 yards (309) - 10.7 yard average - 0-TDs (0)
Hanker - 46 rec (26) - 608 yards (342) - 13.2 yard average - 1.7 TDs (1)
Moss - 42 rec (24) - 556 yards (313) - 13.0 yard average - 8.8 TD (5)
Robins - 16 rec (9) - 213 yards (120) - 13.3 yard average - 1.7 TD (1)
Briscoe - 3 rec (2) - 39 yards (22) - 11.0 yard average - 0 TD (0)

Now Armstrong hardly saw the field last year ... he had a grand total of 7 receptions .... guess what ..... 2 of them were TDs ... which will exceed the projected scoring of the other receivers this year, except Moss ... including Garcon who has 8 receptions and 1 TD this year.

So when I say it was an idiotic thing to cut Armstrong and keep the other guys ... it's not just an opinion or speculation ... it is based on factual statistical data and tangible production. He was better than Banks, Hankerson, Briscoe, Robinson ... hands down .. and just another example of an inexplicable use and discarding of productive players by the Shan-a-clan.


I understand that AA had better numbers, but numbers aren't everything. I don't like AA because I didn't think he was skilled. I didn't see him as consistent. I also thought he had "peaked" and couldn't get any better than he already was. He isn't extremely fast and didn't think he was an efficient route runner. He didn't get separation as well as I would have liked. He wasn't a slot receiver and not good enough to be a starter. That is why I didn't like him; not really his numbers.

I agree that he is better than Robinson, Briscoe, etc. but he wouldn't have made a significant difference in this offense. That is why I don't consider this a huge loss or something to be upset over like the Gaffney ordeal.

In terms of his numbers, I do think it would be important to look at a couple of things to compare apples to apples; such as run attempts, passing attempts that RGIII elected to run / OL couldn't protect, and the frequency were had to come back from behind.

RayNAustin wrote: Gaffney was a head scratcher, along the same lines as the Cundiff deal. Made no sense whatsoever. Now, call me a conspiracy theorist if you must ... but ever think that players like Landry and Rogers might have copped an attitude based on the fact that the Shanahans discard players like an irrational 3 year old who grabs for the next shiny toy in the pile? Do you not think that these types of maneuvers don't affect player attitudes? They saw how these two disrespected McNabb ... and it was uncalled for the way they treated him ... they saw them sign Larry Johnson and then cut him after 2 games and 5 carries ... these players see and they know the difference between "players" coaches, and coaches that will slit their throats without pause or a moment's thought. They see that production doesn't buy you anything with Mike Shanahan .. and he'll cut a productive player for another player that has proven nothing. Mike Shanahan isn't exactly well loved by many past players ... ask Jake Plummer what he thinks of Shanahan ... and be prepared for an earful. But ask players what they think of Joe Gibbs, and you have a hard time finding too many who don't love and respect him ... because he was always a "players coach" and always treated them with respect, and FAIRNESS .... things that are a foreign concept to the Shanahans. Heck, Kyle didn't want McNabb, and I think he intentionally sabotaged him, because McNabb didn't bow to the boy wonder, since he knew more about being a QB in the NFL than the boy genius ever will know.


I do agree with your "conspiracy theory" for CR and LL. In fact, I was thinking the same thing as I typed my thoughts and almost included a caveat saying as much.

But regarding MS' disregard for players and cutting them at a moments notice --- it's not good, but other successful coaches do the same thing. Belechik is notorious for it. That said, MS is no BB --- so he doesn't have the "respect" factor that many cut players give BB. It also hurts that the cut decisions MS commonly makes can be head scratchers, while the ones BB makes are typically dead one or justified.

But I totally agree with you regarding many of the roster moves. Initially I was happy with the MS signing for the soul reason I thought he could bring stability to the organization and took the football decisions out of the hands of Danny. I would take MS and KS over Danny any day of the week and twice on sunday. However, over time I have found myself scratching my head over a number of personell decisions. In particular, I found myself very upset over LL, Atogwe (more or less), Gaffney, Cundiff, Cooley, Rinehart, Rodgers, not to mention his QB misses. I have to say though, that I have always agreed with MS and his RB decisions. He does know his RBs.

In terms of McNabb, I don't think that KS sabotaged him. It was obvious from the second game that McNabb was past his prime. I personally don't think he put forth the effort and really worked to understand the new offense. MS and KS thought McNabb could come in and provide veteran leadership at the QB position, but didn't produce and wasn' the leader they expected. It feels like forever ago, but remember all the horrendous passes McNabb was throwing at peoples feet and his inability to see the field and how he just would dump the ball off..... While I fault MS/BA for not knowing that before trading for him, I don't fault them for transitioning so quickly from him.


RayNAustin wrote: I'm betting you're wrong. I think it would be easy to find a good coach that wold love to have RG3 as their building block .... like Gruden.

Snyder has kept his hands off ... he's got an open wallet ... and aside from the fan's perspective, that's all head coaches want ... an owner that will give them what they ask for, and let them manage and coach the players they choose.

As a side note: do you know that among the 14 Redskin assistant coaches, 11 of them have no NFL playing experience? Kyle doesn't even have playing experience at all ... and is just a very young understudy, still wet behind the ears. He's far from a seasoned, or proven commodity. The Texans offense actually improved after Kyle left.


I hope I'm wrong, but not sure I will be. If I were a coach, I would be hesitant to trust the Danny given his prior history. He is quick to pull the trigger and is tempermental. I do believe he has learned his lesson, but not sure that if in fact things turned around --- his arrogance would reemerge and the cycle would start over.

In terms of the assistants and NFL experience --- I don't see that as an issue at all. Joe Gibbs had no NFL experience; nor did Mike Tomlin or Belichick or Parcells or Coughlin or Payton (well played 3 games as a replacement player) or Crennel or Philbin or well, the list is rather long. That is an overrated characteristic. A good coach or assistant (since all the coaches above were at one time assistants) doesn't have to be a former player; I would take a guy who is smart, passionate, knows the game, good analyist, etc.

With all these things being said, I want to make sure something is clear. I do not believe that MS or BA has been doing a good job. They have made some serious mistakes that have cost this team tremendously. I agree they have not met expectations. That said, I am more afraid that if Danny fires MS that he will hire another puppet. I would rather have MS than a puppet like we did with Vinny/Zorn. If they can go out and get a guy like Mike Tomlin or Coughlin then great. But most importantly we need a GM. I have always maintained that BA wasn't exactly a huge success in TBay. We need a GM ---- a really good one.
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Postby Deadskins » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:44 pm

AA has a whopping 3 catches for 12 yards with Jax this season. :roll:
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Postby chiefhog44 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:48 pm

Deadskins wrote:AA has a whopping 3 catches for 12 yards with Jax this season. :roll:


But it was a head scratcher to get rid of him. :roll:

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Postby SkinsJock » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:31 pm

crazyhorse1 wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:.. as far as advocating for a coaching change - not so fast

I do not like what we've seen for the most part of the past 9 games but at the same time I'm not so sure I'd say it's ALL due to the coaching

I'm not a fan of the HC - I'm really disappointed in what we've seen from the players due to the 'leadership' of both Kyle and Jim ..

that being said - I'm not looking for all out house-cleaning here .... well ..... not just yet ...


Sorry (maybe not) to bring it up...but your relentless knee-jerk support of Shannys and Allen has irked me from the start (which you know). I hope that you are now ready to repent. S and A, far from the "professionals" you thought them to be, were clueless from the beginning--witness: the switch to the 3-4, ignoring the offense, passing up quality free agents, allowing McNabb to show up here and letting Grossman on the field, saying goodbye to the wrong DB's, etc. No, my friend,they had no master plan


we shall see in these next 7 games - Mike will have the opportunity to show that he's the good HC that many think he is

as I've said - I'm not a Shanahan fan as HC - I do think he and Bruce have done well considering all the ramifications that Snyder brought on this franchise

hopefully he can get his son, Jim and the players to show why they all should be a part of the RG3 show going forward

I do think that barring a big letdown in coaching and on the field effort, these guys will be in charge for another year - whether the coaching staff remains the same, is a big question
Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they are open

RG3 will benefit from having a full off season to prepare and a better 'fit' at both HC and OC

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Postby Red_One43 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:58 pm

Deadskins wrote:AA has a whopping 3 catches for 12 yards with Jax this season. :roll:


It only took Miami two months to give up on him. Clearly, AAA is not the same guy that he was in 2010.

During his two months with the Dolphins Armstrong was slowed by a hamstring injury, and a source say the coaches were "let down" by his inability to get open deep.


http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2012-1 ... man-roster

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Postby Kilmer72 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:46 pm

When Gibbs came back for his second stint ... the expectations were high .. and he was a bit of a victim of his own past success, which was beyond remarkable .... yet even though his second tour didn't live up to his first one, he still managed to get us to the playoffs twice in four years .... and that was with Mark Brunnel and Jason Campbell.

What do you think the Joe Gibbs-Al Saunders combo would have been able to accomplish with RG3 ?


Gibbs hardly gets enough credit on his second return. His teams were missing pieces too. He could however, lite a fire under them.

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Postby Redskin in Canada » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:46 pm

Kilmer72 wrote:Gibbs hardly gets enough credit on his second return. His teams were missing pieces too. He could however, lite a fire under them.

AGREED!!!!
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Postby Irn-Bru » Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:10 pm

Not to mention he dealt with Danny at his worst. I agree and think that the farther away we get from the Gibbs years, the better he looks.
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Postby DarthMonk » Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:27 pm

crazyhorse1 wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:To CLL's post - I agree, the call came at a bad time and as Mike P. said on air - the call should have been changed, the refs should have sucked it up

as far as advocating for a coaching change - not so fast

I do not like what we've seen for the most part of the past 9 games but at the same time I'm not so sure I'd say it's ALL due to the coaching

I'm not a fan of the HC - I'm really disappointed in what we've seen from the players due to the 'leadership' of both Kyle and Jim ..

that being said - I'm not looking for all out house-cleaning here .... well ..... not just yet


not good though - especially with an owner like we have who does not have a SINGLE clue about owning an NFL franchise


Sorry (maybe not) to bring it up...but your relentless knee-jerk support of Shannys and Allen has irked me from the start (which you know). I hope that you are now ready to repent. S and A, far from the "professionals" you thought them to be, were clueless from the beginning--witness: the switch to the 3-4, ignoring the offense, passing up quality free agents, allowing McNabb to show up here and letting Grossman on the field, saying goodbye to the wrong DB's, etc. No, my friend, they had no master plan.


But you are crazy crazyhorse1. You shoot from the hip. You can't be right. I mean, if you're right, then so many of us are wrong and, OMG, that means ... I can't even say it.

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Postby Kilmer72 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:31 pm

Just my opinion but he just wasn't young enough. Except for Vince he was truly the best coach ever. No one has ever won 3 super bowls with 3 different QBs. How many running backs? Petitbon deserves lots of credit too. The Shans aren't that and may never be but at least we did get younger and we got faster. Someone will come in eventually and set things right. People are still picking on Dan and he is trying to right the wrong. He knows he screwed up. Eventually things will even out. For now see the improvements and ride the storm.

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Postby SkinsJock » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:54 am

this just in - it seems that the players have a slightly different perspective

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/2085 ... up/nrelate

I'm not saying things are great here but some of you guys plainly do not have a clue

We have the QB - we ARE getting out of the mess created by Snyder

it is really STUPID to advocate for changing the HC or DC at this time - we have many issues - we're NOT helping this franchise by getting rid of the DC or HC or OC at this time

all of the players and coaches will be evaluated at the end of the season and changes will be made then - NOT NOW
Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they are open

RG3 will benefit from having a full off season to prepare and a better 'fit' at both HC and OC

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