Mann and Green: problem with D is Lack of Development

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Postby die cowboys die » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:30 am

I am an experienced/advanced and skilled guitar player, though I lack the natural ability to move my fingers as quickly as some "shredders" out there. But in years of both receiving and teaching lessons, my understanding is that sound technique is sound technique regardless of the speed, and I am perfectly capable of teaching it even if I can't "shred" a billion notes per second myself.

Morris may not have the athletic ability to actually play DB in the NFL, but as a secondary coach he sure ought to be able to execute and demonstrate the *technique* involved, even if he is simply slower and/or weaker.

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Postby rskin72 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:53 am

die cowboys die wrote:I am an experienced/advanced and skilled guitar player, though I lack the natural ability to move my fingers as quickly as some "shredders" out there. But in years of both receiving and teaching lessons, my understanding is that sound technique is sound technique regardless of the speed, and I am perfectly capable of teaching it even if I can't "shred" a billion notes per second myself.

Morris may not have the athletic ability to actually play DB in the NFL, but as a secondary coach he sure ought to be able to execute and demonstrate the *technique* involved, even if he is simply slower and/or weaker.


Certainly agree with this. To be a successful coach does not require you to have been a star player....indeed most of the time those two seem to be mutually exclusive. When I was an instructor in the Navy, the old slogan was "those that can't do, teach"....but it really has to do with the skill set that you bring to the table. I mean, what type of NFL career as a player did Joe Gibbs have?

The OP quotes from our former greats bring more focus to the coaching spotlight.....especially on defense. And, my concerns revolve more around how Haz implements our 3-4 defense and how he prepares our players. When you get burned on the first play of the game by a team's O coord who studied tape and knew your tendencies.....like the Bengals did.....that should raise warning flags about the predictability of our defense.

Bring on some of our former greats to teach coverage, teach pass rush.....that part certainly could not hurt....but seems like this is something that should have been considered in pre-season vice midway point in regular season.....
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:42 am

DaSkinz Baby wrote:No way they bring anyone in. Think about it if Shanahan does this it would be too much like when Zorn had the Bingo player brought in............


No, it wouldn't. Clearly you aren't comprehending what's being proposed.
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Postby SkinsJock » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:01 am

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
DaSkinz Baby wrote:No way they bring anyone in. Think about it if Shanahan does this it would be too much like when Zorn had the Bingo player brought in............


No, it wouldn't. Clearly you aren't comprehending what's being proposed.


:shock: thanks for pointing out the obvious CLL :lol:


hopefully someone uses these few days to analyze what Green and Mann are pointing to - there are some serious mistakes happening and IMO many of them are basically due to poor technique
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Postby Redskin in Canada » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:21 am

Ohhhh!

The ability and willingness to try to look inside critically at one's self and determine whether I reach alone, around, outside, or all of the above to seek the assistance I need to become a better professional and person ...

... pretty profound.

Ego gets in the way, Chris. Many egos get in the way of that vision. Our own, the ego of the ones around us, lack of humility, or just plain immaturity regardless of age.
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Postby SkinsJock » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:04 am

^^ what he said :shock:

we do have many issues and it's not all due to guys named Jim, Kyle or Mike


HCs tend to be very difficult and very inflexible - that's their nature
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Postby DarthMonk » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:07 am

I feel good about seeing this on the field and in my brain before reading it. Enough of that.

I don't know if this is true but I'm gonna say the last head coach we had who was really into this concept personally was Marty. I think Gibbs was a schemer but had assistants who did this. I think Joe Bugel was big on this as a line coach.

The players, as a group, are more athletic than ever but less skilled. Lombardi is rolling over in his grave. Welch, maybe the old Packers WOULD kick our ass in spite of being out athleted almost everywhere. I know their secondary would cover us better than we'd cover them.

BTW - does Morris remind anyone else of Larry Brown?

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Postby Redskin in Canada » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:18 am

DarthMonk wrote:BTW - does Morris remind anyone else of Larry Brown?

I thought about it BUT ...

... their runs are very different. Morris' one cut and run is Shanny's style. Allen's run scheme was different.

However, there are several points of analogy too. The tenacity and commitment are comparable. They also come from two unlikely backgrounds. Their physical commitment to the run is similar too.

It is too early to tell, I feel. Larry was a warrior and had a much better and experienced, run-first, over-the-hill OL. But at this time is too early to tell because I saw runs made by Larry that I have not seen Morris do. It is only his first season. Interesting to watch though. Good observation. :idea:
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Postby SkinsJock » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:53 pm

I think that Mann & Green's comment are well intended but I agree with RiC - there is no way today's coaches take advice or constructive criticism very well - also today's coaches it seems to me are more about defensive and offensive schemes than 'coaching techniques'

at this level these guys all expect the players to have all the basics down - that is why we see so many players not doing the basics like tackling and preparing like the players of the last era did


whatever it is these 2 (Kyle & Jim Haslett) need to be a lot more hands on with their players and design and practice according to what the players can do NOT what they (Jim & Kyle) want them to do - admittedly this also needs to be adjusted to fit into what the offense or defense we are facing does as well
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Postby chiefhog44 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:26 pm

Although I absolutely agree with these guys, the simple fact is that the NFL is no longer a teaching ground. With the limits they place on things like padded practices, OTA days, offseason practices etc, these coaches don't have a whole lot of time to teach fundamentals. In addition, there are limits to how many players are on rosters no adays, meaning you can't let a guy learn by watching or practicing for 3 years without being exposed. On top of that, the game has advanced so much in the last 20 years that colleges serve as those places to learn fundamentals. Coaches expect you to know how to tackle, they expect you to know how to rush or cover.

Now I'm not saying that no teaching goes down while on the team, but its on the fly and they aren't able to practice those skills with the reps like they were back in the day. The burden of learning falls much more in the lap of the player now more than ever. Take Orakpo. He spent the offseason with Derek Brooks from the Chiefs to learn how to cover as a LB, and learn how to split double teams. HE has to do that in the offseason and the team is not allowed to provide coaching to help him. Those are the rules.
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Postby Kilmer72 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:45 pm

DarthMonk wrote:
BTW - does Morris remind anyone else of Larry Brown?

DarthMonk


Yes!!!! Helu and Royster just weren't durable enough and I was longing for someone that was. I like both Helu and Royster. I just do not think we can pound them all year. If Young wasn't our blocking back I would run him much more.

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Postby SkinsJock » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:48 pm

Kilmer72 wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:
BTW - does Morris remind anyone else of Larry Brown?

DarthMonk


Yes!!!! Helu and Royster just weren't durable enough and I was longing for someone that was. I like both Helu and Royster. I just do not think we can pound them all year. If Young wasn't our blocking back I would run him much more.


and this is what Mann and Green were referring to?

please help me here ... :twisted:
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Postby Kilmer72 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:09 pm

Well someone said something and then I did. Sorry SJ

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Postby Deadskins » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:36 am

chiefhog44 wrote:In addition, there are limits to how many players are on rosters no adays, meaning you can't let a guy learn by watching or practicing for 3 years without being exposed. On top of that, the game has advanced so much in the last 20 years that colleges serve as those places to learn fundamentals. Coaches expect you to know how to tackle, they expect you to know how to rush or cover.

Um, the rosters are bigger now than they ever have been. And Green and Mann aren't talking about fundamentals, they're talking about techniques, things that take a player to the next level.
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Postby chiefhog44 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:42 am

Deadskins wrote:
chiefhog44 wrote:In addition, there are limits to how many players are on rosters no adays, meaning you can't let a guy learn by watching or practicing for 3 years without being exposed. On top of that, the game has advanced so much in the last 20 years that colleges serve as those places to learn fundamentals. Coaches expect you to know how to tackle, they expect you to know how to rush or cover.

Um, the rosters are bigger now than they ever have been. And Green and Mann aren't talking about fundamentals, they're talking about techniques, things that take a player to the next level.


I thought that NFL teams would stash a bunch of players on their team back in the day, no?

All I'm saying is the act of teqnique falls more and more in the lap of each player to learn because they don't have nearly the time to teach it now. I hear Pat Kirwin talk about it all the time, so, I do think it's an issue
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