Incompleteness of roster remodeling explains 3-6 record

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Postby oj » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:19 am

The subject suggested the lack of success is 'incomplete roster' and that we are still going thru a rebuilding phase.
A problem with that thinking (incomplete roster) is that it is an excuse not an explanation. My presumption is that you can win with ANY combination of draftees - ANY of those guys that get drafted are potential starters in the right situation. It is the coaches responsibility to create the right siituation so that his player can dominate. If the coach fails to create those situations then the team will be mediocre.
It is obvious that some players have greater talents and if you get 52 of the best players on a single team then you don't need a coach do you!
What i see is a disconnect in the coaching, the Shanahans come across as too clinical and cerebral - i have never, ever seen either of them fire up the team. A pat on the helmut saying 'good job' while not even looking the player in the eye is pathetic.
I think the Shanahans are wicked smart but are emotional drains on our team. When was the last time you saw either of them just smile for the hell of it.
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Postby Red_One43 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:03 am

Many Changes to the Redskins Except Results - LINK

Shanahan has just hit the midpoint of his five-year, $35 million contract. His team is 3-6 this season, 14-27 during his tenure in Washington, and he hasn't taken a team to the playoffs since the 2005 Denver Broncos.


Does imcompleteness of the roster explain this evidence of imcompetence?

Riding a three-game losing streak, the Redskins entered their bye week still in rebuilding mode - even as they've watched other franchises trend from worst to respectable on a speedier timetable.


Hmmm! Is one of these other franchises he is talking about the Colts?

Granted - the Chiefs and the Bucs had good seasons in 2010, but imploded the next year. The current Bucs are looking good.

The above is the only reason why I am not saying Shanny and Haz should be fired, but they do need to make adjustments in their fit the players to the scheme philosophy.

In fairness, Shanahan inherited a mess. The Redskins had become dysfunctional with Vinny Cerrato running the front office, and Jim Zorn looked overwhelmed as a head coach.


Here come the reasons or excuses. I see them as contributors to the problem but not reasons. Look more like excuses to me.

"I didn't think we'd have a whole new football team going into my third year," Shanahan said. "That's a little unusual."


That's on you buddy. You are the personnel guy.

Only 12 players on the current 53-man roster pre-date Shanahan's arrival.


Mostly on Vinny, but you could have found a way to utilize Andre Carter for that 2010. The rest of your cuts have proven to be right on.

"We were an older football team," he said. "We didn't have a lot of draft choices, and when you don't have a lot of players, and you don't have depth through the draft, and you cut all those old players, that means you're starting over again. And that's what we did - we started over again."


Agreed. Definitely a big factor. I give you an A- for what you did with the draft choices. Would have been an A+ if not for the Donovan trade. I only second guess that one because you knew what Donovan was when you traded for him otherwise he looked like a good gamble. You also could have salvaged Donovan if you had tailored the O to him at least for that one season.

Shanahan also notes that each of his three Redskins offseasons has been hindered by unusual circumstances. There was a smaller free-agent pool in 2010 because of the rules in place in the uncapped final year of the collective bargaining agreement.

The 2011 offseason was thrown askew by the lockout, and in 2012 the Redskins learned with little notice before the start of free agency that they were being docked $18 million in salary-cap money this year and next because of overspending during the uncapped year.


Did this only happen to the Skins. This is an excuse. Bengals went to the play-off with a rookie QB after the lockout. BTW - I add the Bengls to the list of teams who have won, but are not doing it the right way. A plus for Shanny's way so far.

"Obviously, that's very strong, when you talk about $36 million," Shanahan said. "And you find out 10 minutes before free agency starts. You plan something for 2-1/2 years and you find out 10 minutes through the newspaper that you just got hit with $36 million."


OK, you have a point here, but from the looks of who you are signing as free agents (Cofield to play NT when the Steelers have showed you that you need a bonafide NT), there is no evidence that you would have done well with a lot of money. See Vinnie and the current Philadelphia Eagles.
But, you do get a pass on this one. Especially since it happened the day before FA.

Still,he wasted a year trying to get Donovan McNabb to fit into his system, then staked his reputation on the duo of Rex Grossman and John Beck. He hit the jackpot this year by getting into position to take Heisman Trophy winner Griffin.


This is all on Shanny! No excuses here. I give Shanny credit for going after McNabb, but when the truth came out that McNabb was no where near the high motor and work ethic guys that Shanny covets - I can only say, "C'mon man! What were you thinking." I get the Grossman thing - it fits his beleif that you can plug in anybody in his system and the system will make the guy look good. It did for the first game of 2011.

Yes, Jackpot with Griffin! Worth the picks! Puts butts in the seats and even tough we are losing. It is clearly a different atmosphere at FedEx.

But Griffin looks like one of the first pieces of the rebuilding puzzle. The Redskins' list of needs runs the gauntlet: cornerback, safety, linebacker, receiver, right tackle.


OK, a mistake was made on Jamal Brown. It seemed like a good trade at the time. The problem is giving him an extention when he could not stay healthy in 2010 and then believing that he was healty in 2010. All on Shanny. He gambled and lost for now. If Compton can excel as a right tackle later this season like Willie Smith last year, then Shanny can salvage this position problem for next year. Speaking of Willie Smith, last I heard he was starting for Da Raiders. Where does he rank compared to Polumbus? Raiders run the same system as we do.

Why not get Jonathan Joseph (FA - Bengals) in 2011? Wade Phillips new that he needed a top corner to turn his near last place D around. The Texans D in 2010 was right there with the Skins in 2010 in the celler. In one year, Wade had them turned around. He also drafted the pieces he needed JJ Watt. His move of Williams to OLB proved to be correct as Williams struggles with the Bills back at DE. Wade is an example of a coach who knows what he is doing. Shanny decides to go bargain hunting with Wilson. Not a bad idea - I think the coaching part is why Wilson has struggled. Who knows, in Haz's system, Joseph might be struggling too.

"I think when you look at the NFL, some instances where you say third year of a program, third year of a head coach, you would like to see the team starting to settle," linebacker London Fletcher said.


Go ahead and say it Fletch. It's the coaches that are messing this one up.

From the day he arrived, Shanahan has been all about control. He has final say over the roster. He demands discipline. He's installed rules and restrictions never before seen at Redskins Park.


Yes, Shanny is part of the problem and he needs to be part of the solution by changing some of his philosophy. Firing him at this juncture is not the answer. Demamding discipline? What discipline? The Skins are the most penalized team in the NFL. More evidence of coaching issues.
Wait a minute? ControL? He needs to take control of the offense and push Kyle to the side. Get that run game in rhythm.


Shanahan says he's seen "tremendous strides" with the team and that he has it going "in the right direction."


It sure looked that way going into this season. Does't look like we are going any direction buy a circular one.

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Postby Red_One43 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:18 am

oj wrote:The subject suggested the lack of success is 'incomplete roster' and that we are still going thru a rebuilding phase.
A problem with that thinking (incomplete roster) is that it is an excuse not an explanation. My presumption is that you can win with ANY combination of draftees - ANY of those guys that get drafted are potential starters in the right situation. It is the coaches responsibility to create the right siituation so that his player can dominate. If the coach fails to create those situations then the team will be mediocre.
It is obvious that some players have greater talents and if you get 52 of the best players on a single team then you don't need a coach do you!
What i see is a disconnect in the coaching, the Shanahans come across as too clinical and cerebral - i have never, ever seen either of them fire up the team. A pat on the helmut saying 'good job' while not even looking the player in the eye is pathetic.
I think the Shanahans are wicked smart but are emotional drains on our team. When was the last time you saw either of them just smile for the hell of it.


I agree with what you are saying OJ, but I have one question for you which I am having trouble finding the answer.

Why does Cooley want to play for the Skins so bad?
Why does Fletcher? He could have went some where else for a final hurrah.
Casey Rabach spoke very highly of the Skins and wanted to come back before signing with the Ravens (later failed a physical).

Player after player say that they want to come back.

Carlos Rodgers wanted to come back as well, but wanted too much money.

I agree with you that the players don't seemed fired up. They make too many penalties. They drop too many passes. We read that Shanny fined more players his first year with the Skins than he had with any other team. Yet, several players come to his defense.

I never hear Carter bad mouth the organization.
Carlos said some critical things, but I don't remember him specifically criticizing Shanny (Check me on this)

I have heard subtle comments by Fletcher that I interepreted as shots against the Scheme.

I have heard subtle comments against Kyle and Mike not being on the same sheet of music.

Keim as written that players are often confused on the defense, but they love it here.

Phil Daniels never said anything bad when he was cut. Even defended Mike's fit the personnel to the scheme philosophy (loosly defened it - I might add - he said it has worked for Mike in the past - he wasn't endorsing it).

Vonnie Holliday was mad when he was traded but felt no hard feeling toward Mike.

After he was let go, Dockery in a radio interview refused to say anything negative about Mike even when chided by LaVar. Derrick said that Shanny would take him to the his office and show him what he was doing wrong. Several players say that they appreciate that in Mike.

So what is wrong with this organization, if the players like the direction the team is going?

I think that they believe in Mike so much that they want to fit the schemes both offensively and defensively, but some of them now that they aren't the guy and they won't be around to see the fruition of their labors.

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Postby Kilmer72 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:06 pm

I really believe it is possible that we might not win another game this year. These coaches could be fired. I think it would be a mistake to do it now or at the end of the year. I just can't see anyone coming in here and fixing this mess anytime soon. (Especially since we have no #1 pick or cap room)

Some good has happened. Except for the past two games, we have done much better in the red zone and our running game is a real threat. Our defense has regressed obviously.

What I would do after giving this bunch of coaches another year is, keep Bruce and ask him to hire a real GM. Make Bruce the President and in charge of PR and cap money. Let the new GM hire a head coach. Last but not least - DO NOT LET THE NEW COACH HAVE FINAL SAY. Unless this bunch can redeem themselves.

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Postby RayNAustin » Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:12 pm

SkinsJock wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:So now let me explain you why I REALLY feel the way I do .... it's a matter of principles, and honesty and integrity and personal responsibility, and standing for something ..... things that used to be considered all important qualities because you are quite frankly NOTHING without these things. /

UNFORTUNATELY Ray - Of the 'qualities' you deem so important. please give us just 1 - I repeat one (1) that we all would agree Dan Snyder has - JUST ONE


Pure deflection ... this discussion is not about the character of Dan Snyder. And because of that non-interference ... the onus rests solely on Shanahan for the results seen.

As quickly as most are to blame Snyder for a rainy day ... and acknowledge his malfeasance and incompetence in running the organization like a fantasy footballer for many years ... there is not a 3 year stretch of time that has seen worse results than the 3 years of Shanahan so far. So what does that say about Shanahan?

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Postby skinsfan#33 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:02 pm

Kilmer72 wrote:I really believe it is possible that we might not win another game this year.


I believe that it is possible that we might not win another game too... possible, but not probable or even likely!

WHat i do believe is Haz is a goner after our last game this year. No, not all of the problems on D are on him. They are week in the secondary and losing Caraker and Orakpo hurt a lot, but Haz has enough tallent for them to be playing better than they are!

MS' biggest mistake was not trading for McRib or trusting Rex / Beck to impersonate NFL QBs, no, it was hiring Haz as his DC. His second biggest mistake was not firing Haz after year one and hiring Wade Philips as his DC when Philips was fired by TTiT.

Here is hoping Rex Ryan gets canned in NY and is hired as our DC. Carolina's HC would make a good DC too. Marvin Lewis? Hell I'll take the France's Secretary of Defense over Haz, as long as Shanny takes his white flag away from him!
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Postby Deadskins » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:14 pm

oj wrote:It is obvious that some players have greater talents and if you get 52 of the best players on a single team then you don't need a coach do you!

No, that's not obvious at all. It's not even true.
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Postby Kilmer72 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:38 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
Kilmer72 wrote:I really believe it is possible that we might not win another game this year.


I believe that it is possible that we might not win another game too... possible, but not probable or even likely!

WHat i do believe is Haz is a goner after our last game this year. No, not all of the problems on D are on him. They are week in the secondary and losing Caraker and Orakpo hurt a lot, but Haz has enough tallent for them to be playing better than they are!

MS' biggest mistake was not trading for McRib or trusting Rex / Beck to impersonate NFL QBs, no, it was hiring Haz as his DC. His second biggest mistake was not firing Haz after year one and hiring Wade Philips as his DC when Philips was fired by TTiT.

Here is hoping Rex Ryan gets canned in NY and is hired as our DC. Carolina's HC would make a good DC too. Marvin Lewis? Hell I'll take the France's Secretary of Defense over Haz, as long as Shanny takes his white flag away from him!



Ok, he did it once before http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2725472

He also got fired for personnel decisions and refusing to fire his last defensive assistant. I hope it all works out in the end.

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Postby riggofan » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:54 pm

Red_One43 wrote:
TimSkin wrote:We need to just stop making excuses buckle down and start KICKING SOME A$$!!!


Your statement above is all I am saying when bringing up the Colts. I agree 100% with you. Stop making excuses. I get that Shanny wants one defense and that he thinks that they need to learn that D like the back of their hand, but Shanny needs to recognize that in the meantime, some of these guys just don't fit the scheme and he needs to adjust some things until he gets is players.


I agree with both of you guys. I'd just say that blaming everybody from Shanahan to the gatorade guy is just as bad and non-productive as making excuses.

Whatever the reasons for where we are right now, we have the players and coaches that we have. I want to see some FIRE from this team. The Bengals are knocking the snot out of the Giants right now. I hope the Skins are watching at home today, getting healthy and realizing ANYBODY CAN WIN THIS DIVISION.

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Postby Red_One43 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:20 pm

Kilmer72 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
Kilmer72 wrote:I really believe it is possible that we might not win another game this year.


I believe that it is possible that we might not win another game too... possible, but not probable or even likely!

WHat i do believe is Haz is a goner after our last game this year. No, not all of the problems on D are on him. They are week in the secondary and losing Caraker and Orakpo hurt a lot, but Haz has enough tallent for them to be playing better than they are!

MS' biggest mistake was not trading for McRib or trusting Rex / Beck to impersonate NFL QBs, no, it was hiring Haz as his DC. His second biggest mistake was not firing Haz after year one and hiring Wade Philips as his DC when Philips was fired by TTiT.

Here is hoping Rex Ryan gets canned in NY and is hired as our DC. Carolina's HC would make a good DC too. Marvin Lewis? Hell I'll take the France's Secretary of Defense over Haz, as long as Shanny takes his white flag away from him!



Ok, he did it once before http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2725472

He also got fired for personnel decisions and refusing to fire his last defensive assistant. I hope it all works out in the end.


Over the first six outings, the Broncos surrendered only 272.0 yards per game and allowed only 44 points, the fewest points permitted in the first six games since the adoption of the 16-game scheduled in 1978. In the final 10 games, however, the Broncos allowed 26.1 points and 359.2 yards per contest.

Part of the unit's problems could be traced to injuries, but Shanahan's decision to fire Coyer suggests there were also philosophical differences between the two men. Denver relied heavily on the blitz in 2005, but was exposed by the Pittsburgh Steelers in an AFC Championship Game defeat, and Coyer reworked the scheme to go with sounder and less risky techniques for 2006.

In the revamped design, the Broncos struggled to create pressure on opposition quarterbacks.

The Denver defense ranked No. 4 in the league overall in Coyer's first two seasons as coordinator, 2003 and 2004, then slipped to 15th in 2005 and was 14th in 2006.


And Coyer wasn't even close to being as bad as Haz!

Some things are similar:

injuries
no pressure on the QB
going from risky blitzing to safer techniques

I don't believe that there are philosophical differences between Haz and Shanny. I think that Haz is doing everything that Shanny wants.
I don't think that Shanny fires Haz after the season.

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Postby Bishop Hammer » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:11 pm

The Hogster wrote:Maybe I'm cranky, but I'm getting annoyed reading the word 'Shanny' Until he wins with us, he doesn't deserve an abbreviation, nickname or whatever.

He's just Mike


Would you settle for Mikey? :?
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He's already in me,
I don't need to sell my soul,
He's already in me.
I wanna be adored
I wanna be adored.

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Postby Red_One43 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:39 pm

Kilmer72 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
Kilmer72 wrote:I really believe it is possible that we might not win another game this year.


I believe that it is possible that we might not win another game too... possible, but not probable or even likely!

WHat i do believe is Haz is a goner after our last game this year. No, not all of the problems on D are on him. They are week in the secondary and losing Caraker and Orakpo hurt a lot, but Haz has enough tallent for them to be playing better than they are!

MS' biggest mistake was not trading for McRib or trusting Rex / Beck to impersonate NFL QBs, no, it was hiring Haz as his DC. His second biggest mistake was not firing Haz after year one and hiring Wade Philips as his DC when Philips was fired by TTiT.

Here is hoping Rex Ryan gets canned in NY and is hired as our DC. Carolina's HC would make a good DC too. Marvin Lewis? Hell I'll take the France's Secretary of Defense over Haz, as long as Shanny takes his white flag away from him!



Ok, he did it once before http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2725472

He also got fired for personnel decisions and refusing to fire his last defensive assistant. I hope it all works out in the end.




Mike has a history of firing D Coordinators - LINK

In Denver, Shanahan ran everything and as things went downhill, he relieved defensive coordinators -- Greg Robinson, Ray Rhodes, Larry Coyer and Jim Bates -- in almost revolving-door fashion.

It's not clear how it contributed to his firing, but the Rocky Mountain News reported on Tuesday night that Bowlen asked Shanahan to make another change at defensive coordinator -- this time cutting loose Bob Slowik. Shanahan reportedly refused. He had said after Sunday's loss that he would not fire another defensive coordinator.

This year, as the defense floundered, it became obvious it wasn't just a coaching problem. It was an issue of talent on the field, and in Denver, the buck stopped with Shanahan.

Yet even when the talent wasn't there, Shanahan usually fielded a competitive team. Decades of solid sellouts and the full confidence of his owner made him almost impervious to criticism. Even after blowout losses, he wont acknowledge, at least publicly, deficiencies in his coaching or management style.


Does this all sound familiar with what is going on with the Skins?
In the past Shanahan has field competitive teams when the talent wasn't there. This is not the Shanahan of the glory days of the Broncos. My apologies to those who warned us that we were getting the Shanny of the last years of the Broncos. The coaching mind is still there, but the managemnt style is lacking severely.
Last edited by Red_One43 on Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Kilmer72 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:19 pm

Sounds real familiar.

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Postby markshark84 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:28 pm

Red_One43 wrote:
oj wrote:The subject suggested the lack of success is 'incomplete roster' and that we are still going thru a rebuilding phase.
A problem with that thinking (incomplete roster) is that it is an excuse not an explanation. My presumption is that you can win with ANY combination of draftees - ANY of those guys that get drafted are potential starters in the right situation. It is the coaches responsibility to create the right siituation so that his player can dominate. If the coach fails to create those situations then the team will be mediocre.
It is obvious that some players have greater talents and if you get 52 of the best players on a single team then you don't need a coach do you!
What i see is a disconnect in the coaching, the Shanahans come across as too clinical and cerebral - i have never, ever seen either of them fire up the team. A pat on the helmut saying 'good job' while not even looking the player in the eye is pathetic.
I think the Shanahans are wicked smart but are emotional drains on our team. When was the last time you saw either of them just smile for the hell of it.


I agree with what you are saying OJ, but I have one question for you which I am having trouble finding the answer.

Why does Cooley want to play for the Skins so bad?
Why does Fletcher? He could have went some where else for a final hurrah.
Casey Rabach spoke very highly of the Skins and wanted to come back before signing with the Ravens (later failed a physical).

Player after player say that they want to come back.

Carlos Rodgers wanted to come back as well, but wanted too much money.

I agree with you that the players don't seemed fired up. They make too many penalties. They drop too many passes. We read that Shanny fined more players his first year with the Skins than he had with any other team. Yet, several players come to his defense.

I never hear Carter bad mouth the organization.
Carlos said some critical things, but I don't remember him specifically criticizing Shanny (Check me on this)

I have heard subtle comments by Fletcher that I interepreted as shots against the Scheme.

I have heard subtle comments against Kyle and Mike not being on the same sheet of music.

Keim as written that players are often confused on the defense, but they love it here.

Phil Daniels never said anything bad when he was cut. Even defended Mike's fit the personnel to the scheme philosophy (loosly defened it - I might add - he said it has worked for Mike in the past - he wasn't endorsing it).

Vonnie Holliday was mad when he was traded but felt no hard feeling toward Mike.

After he was let go, Dockery in a radio interview refused to say anything negative about Mike even when chided by LaVar. Derrick said that Shanny would take him to the his office and show him what he was doing wrong. Several players say that they appreciate that in Mike.

So what is wrong with this organization, if the players like the direction the team is going?

I think that they believe in Mike so much that they want to fit the schemes both offensively and defensively, but some of them now that they aren't the guy and they won't be around to see the fruition of their labors.


:shock:

Is this a joke or do you really not get it? Do you really not understand the politics behind football and free agency? Come on. As someone who speaks with NFL agents quite often, here are some of the tips given:

(1) If you are on a team, you ALWAYS back your coach. He's the one that can play or sit you. Most of these players have incentive contracts and must hit their numbers to get paid. If they don't play, they won't get paid. Players know that one of the most important things is to be a team player. Mouthing off about your coach is literally the WORST thing you can do for a team. If you coach likes you --- you're set.

(2) When it's a contract year, a player must ALWAYS say they want to go back to their original team. That way other teams will throw more money at them as an incentive to leave. And if there is less interest in the player, at least he is a "loyal team guy". And in terms of getting resigned, see number (1) --- if a coach likes you, you are more likely to get resigned.

(3) After you leave, you NEVER say anything bad about the organization (as with any normal job). People don't like players that talk smack after they leave --- because they know that once he leaves the new organization, the same thing is likely to happen. This makes players less marketable on the free agency market. Look at TO; how's that working out for him? Besides, the only people that talk smack after they leave are players who the organization did see being part of the franchise moving forward. This is pretty known.

(4) It is even more important to never talk smack about any person that has been in the league -- in any capacity -- for a long period of time. Most of the longer term coaches all know each other. Their assistants will become HCs. Their mentors are likely still HCs. They know GMs well. It's a fraternity at the HC and GM level. If you bad mouth one coach, you might as well talk smack about everyone in his "inner circle" --- which can be a ton of guys. For example, if you talk smack about Behichick, you are killing your chances of being signed with KC, DET, ATL, BAL, CLE, and PITT. Trust is very important in order for GMs to work with one another. And GMs give advice/help out other GMs (that they trust and have a history with) MUCH MUCH more than most people think.

This is NFL politics. I hope you don't sit there and believe every single word these guys say. It's all lip service. Please don't be that naive. The skin players say how much they love it because it is in their best interest --- they don't care what the truth is. They are trying to keep their jobs, their spot on the depth chart, and their free agent marketability. If they start mouthing off, their stock plummets.
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Postby gay4pacman » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:25 pm

:::enters thread, throws out another colts comparison, runs for the hills:::
I know this guy named Jimmy, he has a pet....POSTERNUTBAG! Thats his cats name, POSTERNUTBAG!!!

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