tribeofjudah's Bible study

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Postby tribeofjudah » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:55 pm

Cappster wrote:
tribeofjudah wrote:
welch wrote:Believers have puzzled over the origins of sin, the implications of "original sin" for thousands of years.

- Christians disagreed early on about how "original sin" could be passed down to succeeding generations. St Augustine argued that original sin must have been sex, so that each generation recreates original sin. Eastern Orthodox (Greek) Christians have thought differently, and their concept is sometimes translated as "first sin". See St John of Damascus, "On the Orthodox Faith", and compare to Augustine's "Enchiridion".

- Christians have also asked what sort of a God creates humans knowing that they will commit sin and will be condemned to eternal fire. That would make God a sadist, rather than the source of love (Espistle of John: God is love...more or less).

- When Jesus speaks of "hell", the word seems to have been "gehenna"...which was the garbage dump outside Jerusalem. It burned night and day, consuming trash, human waste, carcasses...anything. Would dogs surrounded gehenna, ripping flesh from the carcasses. His audience would have had thought immediately of the super-dump. Maybe the word was a metaphor -- a real gut-grabber -- or maybe it was meant literally. We can't know.

- Call that a description of sin derived from an idea about the nature of humans. I'd say that we can observe that human beings appear to be broken in some way that simpler animals are not. We have notions of right and wrong, of evil, of ethics, and humans often chose to do evil. Call that an empiricist view of sin...people behave as if...etc


Welch, I like you angle here and I know about Gehenna being a garbage dump that burned night and day. It was used descriptively for "hell".... Gehenna does not exist today and it does NOT burn now. Likewise - the hell spoken of in the future will burn - BUT it too will burn out (not burn eternally) which is a false teaching and stems from the "immortality of the soul".

The Soul is NOT immortal, until GOD gives us immortality.

GOD ALONE IS IMMORTAL - until He gives us immortality

1Ti 6:14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Ti 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Ti 6:16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
________________________________________________

THE SOUL IS NOT INHERENTLY IMMORTAL: THE SINFUL SOUL SHALL DIE

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

*********************

Your question about why would God make humans IF he knew that they would fall --- is another age old question.

It boils down to Freedom of Choice: Adam and Eve were given FIRM instructions to PROVE that they LOVED God and were Loyal to HIM. God did not want and does not want humans to NOT HAVE A CHOICE to Love and Obey him.

Sadly, the first couple failed the test. Sadly, the woman was DUPED by the FATHER of lies....Satan the Adversary.

This is the Great Controversy between Good and Evil.


Um, if God is omniscient like many people claim, he would know they would fail and subsequent generations would fail. This would prove Welch's second bullet point that God is a sadist. Also, if God is omnipotent like many people, he could have easily destroyed Satan instead of slaughtering millions of people, because they chose to follow Satan's wicked ways saving the suffering of many humans that the "Father" claims to love. Doesn't make sense.


I disagree. Humans have FREE WILL to choose to follow and LOVE God or not. Everything was PERFECT in the beginning....it was good, good, and very good (Genesis early chapters)

Humans did not have to fall to sin and deception of the (snake, serpent, satan, dragon, father of lie....call him what you want). They were free to choose to obey God - but the both (man/woman) failed the test. Eve dishonored God by not following His instructions to NOT TOUCH the forbidden fruit)

GOD, in His Omnipotence....KNEW THAT HUMANS COULD CHOOSE TO DISOBEY...... and YET, God took the RISK, took the Chance, to give them Freedom to choose. They failed, and here we are.

THUS..........enters the plan of SALVATION. Jesus the Lamb that was slain from the foundations of the world.

Yes, God could easily have slayed satan....but let's follow that to it's full conclusion: Then the whole Universe WOULD OBEY GOD OUT OF FEAR rather than LOVE. Beings would fear that God would ZAP them into oblivion for lack of obedience.

OBEDIENCE is another tricky subject: we OBEY GOD because we LOVE him and Honor him....rather than follow Him out of fear.

satan is the cause of all the misery in the world - NOT GOD
And satan is laughing all the way to the bank....as humans blame God

Sin must run its full course, in plain view of how ugly and destructive it is ........then satan and sin and evil will meet its END.
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Postby Cappster » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:29 pm

Haha I find amusement in some of the responses within this thread. Nothing is God's fault, Satan is the true deceiver, God is omnipotent, but couldn't foresee that we were doomed by his "failed policies" as a creator. God could crush Satan, but that takes away our freedom of choice? There is freedom of choice in things that aren't considered *sinful.* If God's ways are so much higher than ours ie we are like infants compared to this supreme being, would you let your kid play with fire in the hopes that they wouldn't get burned or would you not let your child play with fire? And I believe that more people are "obedient to God" from fear than love as people do fear being condemned to hell more so than feeling loved by this being by which no one can quantify its existence.
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Postby tribeofjudah » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:47 pm

Here are the alternative and choices:

1. there is 1 God.......the Almighty
2. there are billions of gods and they can be found in nature (ala Hindu belief)
3. YOU are god within yourself and you can be like GOD (dangerous and blasphemous thinking)
4. there is no God


Pick one, my friends
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Postby DarthMonk » Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:25 am

This week's bible study:

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Postby welch » Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:25 pm

tribeofjudah wrote:Here are the alternative and choices:

1. there is 1 God.......the Almighty
2. there are billions of gods and they can be found in nature (ala Hindu belief)
3. YOU are god within yourself and you can be like GOD (dangerous and blasphemous thinking)
4. there is no God


Pick one, my friends


There are a few other alternatives. Walter Muelder, Dean of the Boston University School of Theology, and a Methodist, hired a Budhist to teach there, and once filled-in when his Budhist friend went to India.

People asked Muelder -- who taught Martin Luther King -- how he could do that without betraying his faith. He answered, approximately, "God calls to people using many voices and in many ways. I'm a Methodist and that's my tradition. I suppose if I'd been born a Budhist I'd probably be a Budhist today"

Muelder's friend and colleague, Harold DeWolf, wrote a "systematic theology" that explores many questions, and leaves more questions. Muelder and DeWolf came from a philosophical/theological tradition founded by Bordern Parker Bowne, called "personalism". Bowne's work on metaphysics asserts that we can know some things by scientific experiment or by logical deduction, but others, ultimate things, cannot be proven. We have faith...a belief in things unseen. We feel glkimpses of the truth, but no one knows with the certainty that we know about gravity or arithmetic.

The position goes back at least to St Augustine, who argued that it is like building a bridge. We can go a certain distance with human understanding, but God completes the bridge. Augustine identified that as "grace".

Kant, who might have been the greatest of modern philosophers (and I've never been able to finish the Critique of Pure Reason) once said something like: the human mind is constructed in such a way as to pose questions that the human mind cannot solve.

(And thank you, The Redeemed One, for giving me an example of a person who can have faith without running around bopping people on the head with the King James bible!)

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WE are not Immortal (yet)......Bible Study #2

Postby tribeofjudah » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:28 pm

BIBLE STUDY PART 2

STUDY ON IMMORTALITY: God will give us immortality as part of the gift of salvation.

GOD ALONE IS IMMORTAL - until He gives us immortality

1Ti 6:14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Ti 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Ti 6:16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
________________________________________________

THE SOUL IS NOT INHERENTLY IMMORTAL: THE SINFUL SOUL SHALL DIE

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

_________________________________________________

AT THE LAST TRUMPET OF REVELATION - is when immortality is handed out

1Cr 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
1Cr 15:54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

THE LIE...... that the SOUL is "already" immortal was started by the serpent in the Garden when speaking to Eve:

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


ENJOY READING THE BIBLE.....
Last edited by tribeofjudah on Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Man's soul is NOT innately Immortal

Postby DarthMonk » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:18 pm

tribeofjudah wrote:BIBLE STUDY PART 2

STUDY ON IMMORTALITY: God will give us immortality as part of the gift of salvation.

GOD ALONE IS IMMORTAL - until He gives us immortality

1Ti 6:14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Ti 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Ti 6:16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
________________________________________________

THE SOUL IS NOT INHERENTLY IMMORTAL: THE SINFUL SOUL SHALL DIE

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

_________________________________________________

AT THE LAST TRUMPET OF REVELATION - is when immortality is handed out

1Cr 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
1Cr 15:54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

THE LIE...... that the SOUL is "already" immortal was started by the serpent in the Garden when speaking to Eve:

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


ENJOY READING THE BIBLE.....


Biblical Fundamentalism will always have its appeal. It speaks to certitude and legalism, which people like. We are lost souls in need of direction and for some of us, memorizing and quoting from scripture helps as a guide to our lives. But this unbending devotion to words instead of spirit is in itself a form of idol worship. After all, Jesus gave people his life, not a Bible. I myself reject Biblical fundamentalism and am perfectly comfortable with the fact that there are some who will sign my ticket to hell. To me there is no compelling evidence to support the Bible’s most outrageous claims such as the Earth being created in six days, a warrior killing armies of men with the jawbone of an ass, or Noah putting two of each species on a wooden boat while the world was flooded. If that doesn’t add up to scrutiny that the Bible is infallible then every other claim is suspect. Could it be that the Bible is man’s best attempt at explaining the mystery of his relationship and interaction with his Creator? I think that’s a good possibility.

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Postby tribeofjudah » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:55 pm

Jesus himself quoted from Scripture: Torah, etc.
Jesus himself spoke of Moses, David, the widow during Elijah's time...Namaan the leper, etc....

Could you believe that the Bible is written by men who were led to reveal such writing by the SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD...?
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Postby Cappster » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:02 am

tribeofjudah wrote:Jesus himself quoted from Scripture: Torah, etc.
Jesus himself spoke of Moses, David, the widow during Elijah's time...Namaan the leper, etc....

Could you believe that the Bible is written by men who were led to reveal such writing by the SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD...?


People can believe just about anything whether or not there is evidence to suggest that such things even occurred. The Bible was written by man and that is a fact. Was God the guiding hand who helped men put pen to paper? I don't see any evidence of that being the case.

And on a side note, it is quite easy to look at the Old Testament and tailor the New Testament to the old making the stories fit (shedding of the lambs blood).
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Postby Deadskins » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:41 am

Cappster wrote:
tribeofjudah wrote:Jesus himself quoted from Scripture: Torah, etc.
Jesus himself spoke of Moses, David, the widow during Elijah's time...Namaan the leper, etc....

Could you believe that the Bible is written by men who were led to reveal such writing by the SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD...?


People can believe just about anything whether or not there is evidence to suggest that such things even occurred.
...
And on a side note, it is quite easy to look at the Old Testament and tailor the New Testament to the old making the stories fit (shedding of the lambs blood).

There's plenty of evidence to suggest New Testament events happened. And I totally disagree about tailoring the New to fit the Old. Jesus was a radical departure from what the Jewish people of His time were expecting from a Messiah, which is why the Pharisees tried to trip him up on the law. But He tied His teachings to the Old Testament, showing He understood God's law better than they.
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Postby Cappster » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:18 am

Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:
tribeofjudah wrote:Jesus himself quoted from Scripture: Torah, etc.
Jesus himself spoke of Moses, David, the widow during Elijah's time...Namaan the leper, etc....

Could you believe that the Bible is written by men who were led to reveal such writing by the SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD...?


People can believe just about anything whether or not there is evidence to suggest that such things even occurred.
...
And on a side note, it is quite easy to look at the Old Testament and tailor the New Testament to the old making the stories fit (shedding of the lambs blood).

There's plenty of evidence to suggest New Testament events happened. And I totally disagree about tailoring the New to fit the Old. Jesus was a radical departure from what the Jewish people of His time were expecting from a Messiah, which is why the Pharisees tried to trip him up on the law. But He tied His teachings to the Old Testament, showing He understood God's law better than they.


Even if there were evidence that Jesus even existed, it is a mighty tough mountain to climb to prove that he was God in the flesh. Doesn't it seem rather silly that God would send himself to be born a man and then sacrifice himself for himself? Sounds rather sadistic to me as to why an omnipotent being would do such a thing.

Anyway, the story of Jesus is not even original and the Bible is full of fallacies of which do not seem to be "guided" by a being who was able to create the universe.
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Postby Deadskins » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:26 am

Cappster wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:
tribeofjudah wrote:Jesus himself quoted from Scripture: Torah, etc.
Jesus himself spoke of Moses, David, the widow during Elijah's time...Namaan the leper, etc....

Could you believe that the Bible is written by men who were led to reveal such writing by the SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD...?


People can believe just about anything whether or not there is evidence to suggest that such things even occurred.
...
And on a side note, it is quite easy to look at the Old Testament and tailor the New Testament to the old making the stories fit (shedding of the lambs blood).

There's plenty of evidence to suggest New Testament events happened. And I totally disagree about tailoring the New to fit the Old. Jesus was a radical departure from what the Jewish people of His time were expecting from a Messiah, which is why the Pharisees tried to trip him up on the law. But He tied His teachings to the Old Testament, showing He understood God's law better than they.


Even if there were evidence that Jesus even existed, it is a mighty tough mountain to climb to prove that he was God in the flesh. Doesn't it seem rather silly that God would send himself to be born a man and then sacrifice himself for himself? Sounds rather sadistic to me as to why an omnipotent being would do such a thing.

Anyway, the story of Jesus is not even original and the Bible is full of fallacies of which do not seem to be "guided" by a being who was able to create the universe.

He was sacrificed for the human race, not for God. Can you name some of these "fallacies," and give your evidence that they are indeed fallacies?
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Postby DarthMonk » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:22 am

I've always found it interesting that ancient cultures all over the world sacrificed first-born sons (or made another culture do it in service of the new god) and that this is exactly what the Christian God is said to have done with his first (and only) son.

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Postby langleyparkjoe » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:44 am

Wana know the one thing ALL religions have in common?

Man & Woman
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Postby Cappster » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:49 pm

Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:
tribeofjudah wrote:Jesus himself quoted from Scripture: Torah, etc.
Jesus himself spoke of Moses, David, the widow during Elijah's time...Namaan the leper, etc....

Could you believe that the Bible is written by men who were led to reveal such writing by the SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD...?


People can believe just about anything whether or not there is evidence to suggest that such things even occurred.
...
And on a side note, it is quite easy to look at the Old Testament and tailor the New Testament to the old making the stories fit (shedding of the lambs blood).

There's plenty of evidence to suggest New Testament events happened. And I totally disagree about tailoring the New to fit the Old. Jesus was a radical departure from what the Jewish people of His time were expecting from a Messiah, which is why the Pharisees tried to trip him up on the law. But He tied His teachings to the Old Testament, showing He understood God's law better than they.


Even if there were evidence that Jesus even existed, it is a mighty tough mountain to climb to prove that he was God in the flesh. Doesn't it seem rather silly that God would send himself to be born a man and then sacrifice himself for himself? Sounds rather sadistic to me as to why an omnipotent being would do such a thing.

Anyway, the story of Jesus is not even original and the Bible is full of fallacies of which do not seem to be "guided" by a being who was able to create the universe.

He was sacrificed for the human race, not for God. Can you name some of these "fallacies," and give your evidence that they are indeed fallacies?


So, God could have pardoned the human race, his imperfect creation that he messed up while creating, but instead created and sent his only son to sacrifice him so that humans may live? Hmmm, doesn't make much logical sense to me and seems rather sadistic...especially for a being that is supposed to be all powerful. I suppose that will be the first fallacy that I have to offer. Another fallacy is the story of Noah's Ark. It is impossible to find two of every animal (including dinosaurs depending on if you are a 6,000 year old creationists) and fit them on a boat. Evolution is all, but scientific law in that all animals have evolved from a previous species. Yes, like it or not, all humans are primates just like our ancestral cousins, the Chimpanzee. How about the commandment "Thou shalt not kill?" How many people did God slaughter in the Bible? So as I say and not as I do?

Adam and Eve...incest anyone? Did their kids not have sex with each other as well? Not to mention the fact that woman in the Bible are equivalent to the worth of cattle. I could go on with all of the claims the Bible makes that doesn't make sense, but that would be a waste of time. Once you start poking holes in certain parts of the Bible, it opens up the thought process of how much of the Bible should be questioned. I question all of it, because it has all of the traits of being made by man. Pettiness, anger, jealousy, vanity, etc...
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