Griff's Injury

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Postby welch » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:37 pm

riggofan wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:I understand that defensive players are trying to take out Griffin - that is a part of the game


Is it? I thought the game was to tackle him.


What did Gregg Williams say? "Cut off the head and the body dies". That was the reason for bounty-ball.

Of course, I like the way that Charley Taylor used to protect Sonny. It is now illegal, called a "crack-back" block, but Charley, all 215 - 220 pounds of ex-running back and college safety, would take a step down field, turn inward, and break the leg of any DT who took liberties with Sonny. I think Charley ended the career of a former Redskin named Crane who was playing DT for the Jets. In a pre-season game.

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Postby rskin72 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:12 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
riggofan wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:Not necessarily with regard to this hit but I really feel like guys are "out to get" Griff. I'm watching the Packer/Lion game and when Rodgers is vulnerable he simply is not targeted in the same way - not even by Suh. I also saw a guy go for Griff's head today on the sideline. Griff saw it coming, ducked, there was still helmet-to-helmet contact ... and no freaking call! What gives? Is it cuz he is a rookie with endorsements? Is it Bryce Harper getting thrown at in his first at bat? WTF? Guys are catching flags for trying to break up passes with good hits but guys are going after Griff's head EVERY WEEK and getting away with it.


I totally agree with you DarthMonk, and I know exactly which play you are talking about on the sideline yesterday. It was a little more obvious on the replays maybe, but the referees need to be looking out for RGIII. Guys are DEFINITELY out to get him.

I don't know if its guys hating on him as much as teams knowing they have to stop him somehow.

I would hope the league recognizes RGIII is one of the most exciting and marketable players to enter the league in a long time. They need to get these defenders in check before somebody hurts him seriously.

This isn't about RGIII scrambling either. I think the play he got hurt on was a freak thing and fair play from the Ravens. All these late shots and head shots he takes in the pocket are BS.

I'm sorry guys, the refs got a lot wrong in that game, but that play wasn't one of them. There wasn't a flag and shouldn't have been.

Here is why:
When a QB breaks the pocket and becomes a runner he is offered no more protection than than a RB. That means a blow to the head is not flagged.
Think about a RB running the ball. How many times do they take blows to the head?

You don't have to like it but there was nothing about that play that was illegal. Just like there was nothing that Niles Paul did that should have drawn a flag for interfering with a fair catch. The PF on DHall for hitting the Ratbirds WR may have been a late hit (debatable) but it absolutely wasn't what the refs called! It certainly wasn't a blow to the head. Hall hit the WR square in the chest with his shoulder. There was zero contact to the head or neck area.
Those plays weren't officiated correctly, but the play your complaining about was. Besides RG3 already had a bonus roughing penalty. The hit that took his helmet off was a legal hit. There was no contact to the head and it wasn't late and he didn't drive him to the ground. But what I found interesting was that there were offsetting penalties. Since when does a random penalty offset a personal foul. PFs always stand or overide the other penalties. I found that strange.


I don't think that it is correct that you are allowed to lead with the helmet (i.e. initiate helmet to helmet contact) merely because the QB is outside the pocket and running. He can be hit, but the NFL does NOT allow helmet to helmet hits, and I am waiting to see if the NFL reviews this play and fines the Buzzard who tried to decapitate RGIII.

Now.....it IS true that almost any D player will try to stick a QB....and while most (outside of Suh) probably do not want to intentionally cause permanent damage, if they can get a stud QB out of the game then all the better. Anyone remember one of our linebackers basically ending Aikman's career? That is part of the game, and RGIII's mistake vs the Buzzards was that he did not SLIDE. Maybe Ngata would have hit him anyhow, but then it would have been a flag at least. RGIII has to get a little smarter in taking hits....and how he gets hit. He will be our stud QB for years IF he stays healthy.

Here is a link to the NFL rule (Rule 12 section 2 article 8) on helmet to helmet hits.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2010/10/nf ... article-8/
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Postby DarthMonk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:17 pm

rskin72 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
riggofan wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:Not necessarily with regard to this hit but I really feel like guys are "out to get" Griff. I'm watching the Packer/Lion game and when Rodgers is vulnerable he simply is not targeted in the same way - not even by Suh. I also saw a guy go for Griff's head today on the sideline. Griff saw it coming, ducked, there was still helmet-to-helmet contact ... and no freaking call! What gives? Is it cuz he is a rookie with endorsements? Is it Bryce Harper getting thrown at in his first at bat? WTF? Guys are catching flags for trying to break up passes with good hits but guys are going after Griff's head EVERY WEEK and getting away with it.


I totally agree with you DarthMonk, and I know exactly which play you are talking about on the sideline yesterday. It was a little more obvious on the replays maybe, but the referees need to be looking out for RGIII. Guys are DEFINITELY out to get him.

I don't know if its guys hating on him as much as teams knowing they have to stop him somehow.

I would hope the league recognizes RGIII is one of the most exciting and marketable players to enter the league in a long time. They need to get these defenders in check before somebody hurts him seriously.

This isn't about RGIII scrambling either. I think the play he got hurt on was a freak thing and fair play from the Ravens. All these late shots and head shots he takes in the pocket are BS.

I'm sorry guys, the refs got a lot wrong in that game, but that play wasn't one of them. There wasn't a flag and shouldn't have been.

Here is why:
When a QB breaks the pocket and becomes a runner he is offered no more protection than than a RB. That means a blow to the head is not flagged.
Think about a RB running the ball. How many times do they take blows to the head?

You don't have to like it but there was nothing about that play that was illegal. Just like there was nothing that Niles Paul did that should have drawn a flag for interfering with a fair catch. The PF on DHall for hitting the Ratbirds WR may have been a late hit (debatable) but it absolutely wasn't what the refs called! It certainly wasn't a blow to the head. Hall hit the WR square in the chest with his shoulder. There was zero contact to the head or neck area.
Those plays weren't officiated correctly, but the play your complaining about was. Besides RG3 already had a bonus roughing penalty. The hit that took his helmet off was a legal hit. There was no contact to the head and it wasn't late and he didn't drive him to the ground. But what I found interesting was that there were offsetting penalties. Since when does a random penalty offset a personal foul. PFs always stand or overide the other penalties. I found that strange.


I don't think that it is correct that you are allowed to lead with the helmet (i.e. initiate helmet to helmet contact) merely because the QB is outside the pocket and running. He can be hit, but the NFL does NOT allow helmet to helmet hits, and I am waiting to see if the NFL reviews this play and fines the Buzzard who tried to decapitate RGIII.

Now.....it IS true that almost any D player will try to stick a QB....and while most (outside of Suh) probably do not want to intentionally cause permanent damage, if they can get a stud QB out of the game then all the better. Anyone remember one of our linebackers basically ending Aikman's career? That is part of the game, and RGIII's mistake vs the Buzzards was that he did not SLIDE. Maybe Ngata would have hit him anyhow, but then it would have been a flag at least. RGIII has to get a little smarter in taking hits....and how he gets hit. He will be our stud QB for years IF he stays healthy.

Here is a link to the NFL rule (Rule 12 section 2 article 8) on helmet to helmet hits.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2010/10/nf ... article-8/


Your link explicitly states "violent or unnecessary use of the helmet is impermissible against any opponent..." Thanks.

It does not even have to be hemet-to-helmet to be called. The sideline hit mentioned at the top of this quoted post was patently illegal. The call was blown. JUST saw it on NFL Replay. It was on the same drive as the injury.

In fact, ON THE PLAY BEFORE THE INJURY 2 guys hit Griff at/below the knees in the pocket then another guy hits him high. I though at/below the knees in the pocket was illeagal too. WTF??
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Postby SkinsJock » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:26 pm

riggofan wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:I understand that defensive players are trying to take out Griffin - that is a part of the game


Is it? I thought the game was to tackle him.


If you think that defensive players are only interested in making a hard tackle on the most valuable player on another team - you are not in touch

If a defensive player can take out or force an opposing player to leave the field - ESPECIALLY the other teams best player - they will do that on each and every tackle

I used to love what our defensive players did to Troy - even Joe T admits that LT's hit was really a good hit - even though it broke his leg

any defensive player would love to make a clean hit on a QB and force him to miss a few games - hell, a lot of them will try illegal hits too

that's what this game is all about - hitting other players hard and trying to affect their mobility
We are very fortunate to have Kirk Cousins but Griffin has a huge upside IMO

Robert needs to continue to get better and to do that he needs time on the field - hopefully sooner than later

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Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:29 pm

SkinsJock wrote:
riggofan wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:I understand that defensive players are trying to take out Griffin - that is a part of the game


Is it? I thought the game was to tackle him.


If you think that defensive players are only interested in making a hard tackle on the most valuable player on another team - you are not in touch

If a defensive player can take out or force an opposing player to leave the field - ESPECIALLY the other teams best player - they will do that on each and every tackle

I used to love what our defensive players did to Troy - even Joe T admits that LT's hit was really a good hit - even though it broke his leg

any defensive player would love to make a clean hit on a QB and force him to miss a few games - hell, a lot of them will try illegal hits too

that's what this game is all about - hitting other players hard and trying to affect their mobility


Soooo every team has a bounty system right? Guess that's the saints argument huh...
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Postby SkinsJock » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:31 pm

The hit on Griffin was illegal - the ref missed it or he would have called it


One of the 'benefits' of being a league poster child as RG3 has quickly become is that he will get a lot of these calls going his way

The NFL does not want any of their pin-up boys on the sidelines :wink:
We are very fortunate to have Kirk Cousins but Griffin has a huge upside IMO

Robert needs to continue to get better and to do that he needs time on the field - hopefully sooner than later

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Postby Deadskins » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:49 pm

Redskin in Canada wrote:We have Grossman READY to be shipped to Phoenix tomorrow.

I mean, he is an experienced QB and certainly an improvement over their current players. He deserves another chance elsewhere.

I would trade him for a second round pick, (between us, even a third).

I'd trade him for a ham sandwich and a bag of chips. If I could get a Coke too, that would be gravy. :twisted:
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Postby DarthMonk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:10 pm

Deadskins wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:We have Grossman READY to be shipped to Phoenix tomorrow.

I mean, he is an experienced QB and certainly an improvement over their current players. He deserves another chance elsewhere.

I would trade him for a second round pick, (between us, even a third).

I'd trade him for a ham sandwich and a bag of chips. If I could get a Coke too, that would be gravy. :twisted:


I'd buy that for a dollar ... if I could get change back.
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Postby SkinsJock » Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:38 am

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:.. Soooo every team has a bounty system right? Guess that's the saints argument huh...


ROTFALMAO - I wasn't going to comment but ... why do you constantly try to make stuff up?

ALL NFL defensive players try to hit offensive players VERY HARD - they will even make illegal hits if they think they can both get away with it and maybe even cause the player to miss a series or two (EVEN BETTER - take the other teams best player out of the game

it's not a "bounty system" - this is the NFL and hard tackling is encouraged

ALL defensive players would love to take out the opposing team's best player with a good hard hit

Robert Griffin III will be the beneficiary of some calls BECAUSE he's now one of the NFL's 'poster child' players

the helmet to helmet hit was missed but the refs will be looking to protect him - the NFL will try and 'protect' RG3 but RG3 also has to understand that he cannot let players get a good shot at him because if they can 'take him out', they will - that is 'good' football



btw - I'm glad G Williams is in so much trouble - it's clear to me he wanted and encouraged his defensive players to take out opposing players and IMO there WAS a bounty system in place
We are very fortunate to have Kirk Cousins but Griffin has a huge upside IMO

Robert needs to continue to get better and to do that he needs time on the field - hopefully sooner than later

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Postby skinsfan#33 » Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:06 am

DarthMonk wrote:
rskin72 wrote:
Your link explicitly states "violent or unnecessary use of the helmet is impermissible against any opponent..." Thanks.

It does not even have to be hemet-to-helmet to be called. The sideline hit mentioned at the top of this quoted post was patently illegal. The call was blown. JUST saw it on NFL Replay. It was on the same drive as the injury.


I read that link and I've always know that any player could be flagged for a hit with their helmet to any player, but what I also know is that rule is NEVER enforced that way. I'll give you a perfect example:
When one of our players put McCoy out in the Egirls game out was a clear helmet to helmet hit. He wasn't flagged or fined.

RBs take shots to the head all the time. As far as the NFL rules are concerned, RG3 became a RB once he broke the pocket and started running the ball. While the hit MAY technically have been illegal, but in reality thay type of hit almost never gets flagged.

I didn't notice the hits to the leg, but I'll go back and look at it. The hit that chapped my butt earlier in the year was the hit Ryan "the head hunter" Clark put on Griffin when he went out for that I'll fated pass for Josh Morgan. That was clearly a helmet to helmet hit where Clark lauched himself at Robert's head. Because it was a QB instead of a WR it shouldn't have mattered because at that time RG3 was a defenseless receiver, but it did matter...no flag, no fine. If that had been a WR, Clark would have gotten a yellow hanky and a FedEx package.

Face it there is a double standard when it comes to "running QBs" and other QBs. Once a player like Griffin takes off he is now being sen as a RB by the refs. If that was a Manning, Brady, or Breese, they might get the flag, but the shouldn't.
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Postby DarthMonk » Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:27 am

Anybody remember when it was open season on Patrick Ramsey? Rag doll city and no calls.

Anyway, I watched the injury play repeatedly and it does not look as bad to me as it first did.

Clark hit:

Image

Defenseless receiver but not helmet-to-helmet. More like face mask to shoulder pad. I thought it was helmet-to-helmet live too. Totally clean a few years ago. Borderline now.
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Postby riggofan » Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:48 am

SkinsJock wrote:
riggofan wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:I understand that defensive players are trying to take out Griffin - that is a part of the game


Is it? I thought the game was to tackle him.


If you think that defensive players are only interested in making a hard tackle on the most valuable player on another team - you are not in touch

If a defensive player can take out or force an opposing player to leave the field - ESPECIALLY the other teams best player - they will do that on each and every tackle


I'm not an idiot. I know what some defensive players are trying to do. But just because it happens doesn't mean it is "part of the game". If trying to injure your opponent was really "part of the game", THERE WOULD BE NO BOUNTY GATE SCANDAL.

The reason it goes on in the game is a ref can't usually judge intent, can't look at a play and say that guy was intentionally trying to hurt that other guy. The Saints were paying each other to injure other players though. There was no question what their intent was.

And lastly, I'll just say I don't personally believe the majority of defensive players are trying to injure their opponents. A guy like London Fletcher can lay a big hit on a player to stop a drive, force a punt or make a player think twice about running his way again. I don't see guys like that looking to send a guy to the sideline with a concussion every time he makes a tackle.

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Postby skinsfan#33 » Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:54 am

Looks like he gets him in the ear hole to me (yes with his face mask - part of the helmet), but you are right it, definitely looked much worse with the view they had in the game. However, you don’t actually need to hit the head with your helmet (which he did) to draw a hitting a defenseless receiver flag. All you have to do is hit them in the head or neck area and that hit was definitely to the head or neck area.

By the way, Clark left the game with a concussion shortly after that… coincidence, I think not!

Heck DHall got flagged last week for hitting a Ratbird receiver in the chest with his shoulder.
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Postby DaSkinz Baby » Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:59 am

I think we start Kirk and worse case RG3 can come off the bench depending on how his knee feels, I think we need to give him as much rest as possible especially with us still having to play 2 NFC East teams. I would hope that Kyle can use some plays that the Browns haven't seen a lot of and it gives us 28 points, I don't see Cleveland putting more than 17 points on us hopefully but you never know.

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Postby riggofan » Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:20 am

DaSkinz Baby wrote:I think we start Kirk and worse case RG3 can come off the bench depending on how his knee feels, I think we need to give him as much rest as possible especially with us still having to play 2 NFC East teams. I would hope that Kyle can use some plays that the Browns haven't seen a lot of and it gives us 28 points, I don't see Cleveland putting more than 17 points on us hopefully but you never know.


If Cousins has to start, then it is what it is. I'm going to assume at the point that the coaches don't feel RGIII can be effective given his injury.

I just don't agree that we have the luxury of deciding to rest RGII vs. the Browns to save him for later games. If we want to make the playoffs we may need to win every one of these last three games. If we lose vs the Browns, the next two games could be meaningless. Look at the wildcard/division scenarios and do the math.

RGIII is our best player, period. If he can run at 80%, he's had more game experience and knows our offense better than Cousins. If he physically just can't go, then fine. But Ben Roethlisberger is out there playing with a rib injury that could slice his freaking aorta, trying to make a playoff run. Give RGIII the motrin 800 and let him have a chance to lead his team.

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