Should Cousins start vs Philly?

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Postby DarthMonk » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:34 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
If we beat the Egirls and the Cowgirls lose to the Aints that would put the Skins @ 9-6 and the Cowpukes @ 8-7 going into the last game that would mean if the Skins lose to the Cowgirls the last game they would be tied in:

- Record
- Head to head
- Division record
- Common opponenets
- Conference record

the next tie breaker would be strenght of victory and right now the Skins have the edge in that. The Skins are +31 and the Pukes are -11. Obviouly that can change and will change over these next two weeks, but if we get thorugh Phily and the Giants lose one of the next two it looks like we could win the NFCE even w/o sweeping the Cowgirls!


How the teams currently stand in the division tiebreakers:

First tiebreaker - head-to-head: Redskins (2-1), Giants (2-2), Cowboys (1-2)
Second tiebreaker - division record: Redskins (3-1), Giants (2-3), Cowboys (3-2)
Third tiebreaker - common opponents: Redskins (5-4), Giants (7-2), Cowboys (7-2)



Your scenario would do this head-to-head:

all 2-2

to division record:

Redskins (4-2)
Giants (3-3 at best)
Cowboys (4-2)

and common oponents:

Redskins (6-5)
Giants (7-4 at worst)
Cowboys (8-3)

We cannot clinch East this week. We can clinch Wild Card.

We must sweep Cowboys to win East.

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Postby FanofallthatisGibbs » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:48 pm

skinz1982 wrote:Admittedly I'm not a big stats guy, I go with what I observe. And I don't mean to sound like "that guy" but I played and coached (briefly) at the DIII level on the offensive side of the ball and would like to think I have a decent eye for these things.

Griffin's TD to INT ratio is impressive, but the thing is he is throwing to more open receivers due to the respect the defense has to give to his running ability in the zone read. And that's not to take anything away from RGIII, as having that impact on the defense is what makes him the more dangerous and better overall player. And it is hard to knock KC for some of those picks when you're coming in cold off the bench and have limited experience practicing with the ones. The timing and chemistry may not be there. A QB really needs time to get into a flow, I think yesterday's game was proof of that.

And please, don't misinterpret this for me saying that Cousins is the better PLAYER or the better OPTION. He's not. I'm just saying he's the better PURE PASSER and has more experience as a pocket passer, starting for three seasons at Michigan State in a traditional pro style. Knowing when to put the perfect touch and velocity on the ball is something you really can't coach and he has it, better than RGIII. He also throws a ball I think that is easier for WRs to catch (you'll noticed we didn't suffer dropsies yesterday) and he does great at leading his WRs so they get yards after the catch. He is also tremendous at the play action fake which is much more difficult than you would think to master. My biggest knock against him would be his footwork, which isn't terrible, and his arm strength is not tremendous, but certainly good enough.

Let me put it to you this way. If you take away RGIII's ability to run and improvise, and turn him strictly into a pocket passer, I don't think he could carve up a defense the way Cousins can. His mechanics, accuracy and ability to read a defense is a notch below KC, in my humble opinion.


You may not be a big stats guy, but what you lack in quantitative reasoning you knock out of the park in qualitative reasoning. Excellent post and I agree. Couldn't have said it better myself, and to re-emphasize, this does not take anything away from the total package that is RGIII.

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Postby FanofallthatisGibbs » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:50 pm

One thing I noticed that KC seems to be a bit better at is going through his reads. That doesn't mean he has better decision making, but he certainly never fixes on one guy. RGIII sometimes does and makes a quick decision to dump the ball off to the check down receiver. Different styles, both effective.

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Postby skinz1982 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:15 pm

FanofallthatisGibbs wrote:You may not be a big stats guy, but what you lack in quantitative reasoning you knock out of the park in qualitative reasoning. Excellent post and I agree. Couldn't have said it better myself, and to re-emphasize, this does not take anything away from the total package that is RGIII.


I think there's SOME value in stats if you have the benefit of an apples to apples comparison, but that doesn't happen often. For the most part stats are misleading.

For example, if you give RGIII and Cousins the exact same number of throws, my guess is Cousins would wind up with more interceptions, reason being, he would be trying to fit the ball into tighter windows. RGIII would have the benefit of throwing to receivers who have more separation. But that's the thing. The mismatches that RGIII creates on the field is what makes him so dangerous. Cousins isn't going to bring the dynamic, although he certainly did a good job of it with those play action boots.

In a 3rd and long situation or a 2 minute drill where you have to drive 80 yards, I would probably put more faith in Cousins. But over the course of 4 quarters, give me RGIII.

RGIII is the total package that people thought Mike Vick and Cam Newton were GOING to be. He's already better than both of those guys and he's only a rookie.

It's vital that he stays healthy, but it's inevitable that he's going to get dinged with the way he plays, and if and when that happens, I have total faith in Cousins and Kyle calling plays to suit his strengths as a passer.

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Postby emoses14 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:32 pm

skinz1982 wrote:
emoses14 wrote:I saw both play in college as well. And I can understand how someone might have a different opinion because Kirk is really good, much better than a lot of "us" gave him credit for when drafted. But more importantly I've watched both play in the pros. Griffin is the better decision maker, quarterback, reader of defenses (whether it be in the context of the option read, pistol formation plays, shotgun or dropbacks). Cousins has 1 less INT in 1.7 games as Griffin does all year. Out of 48 attempts, Kirk's got 3 picks. In 351 attempts Griffin has 4. That tells me someone is reading defenses better and making better throws, from everywhere on the field, including the pocket. Being decisive in the pocket is only worthwhile if the decisions you make are good ones. AGAIN, I don't think Kirk makes bad decisions or is a bad qb, but on no metric is he better than Robert.


Admittedly I'm not a big stats guy, I go with what I observe. And I don't mean to sound like "that guy" but I played and coached (briefly) at the DIII level on the offensive side of the ball and would like to think I have a decent eye for these things.

Griffin's TD to INT ratio is impressive, but the thing is he is throwing to more open receivers due to the respect the defense has to give to his running ability in the zone read. And that's not to take anything away from RGIII, as having that impact on the defense is what makes him the more dangerous and better overall player. And it is hard to knock KC for some of those picks when you're coming in cold off the bench and have limited experience practicing with the ones. The timing and chemistry may not be there. A QB really needs time to get into a flow, I think yesterday's game was proof of that.

And please, don't misinterpret this for me saying that Cousins is the better PLAYER or the better OPTION. He's not. I'm just saying he's the better PURE PASSER and has more experience as a pocket passer, starting for three seasons at Michigan State in a traditional pro style. Knowing when to put the perfect touch and velocity on the ball is something you really can't coach and he has it, better than RGIII. He also throws a ball I think that is easier for WRs to catch (you'll noticed we didn't suffer dropsies yesterday) and he does great at leading his WRs so they get yards after the catch. He is also tremendous at the play action fake which is much more difficult than you would think to master. My biggest knock against him would be his footwork, which isn't terrible, and his arm strength is not tremendous, but certainly good enough.

Let me put it to you this way. If you take away RGIII's ability to run and improvise, and turn him strictly into a pocket passer, I don't think he could carve up a defense the way Cousins can. His mechanics, accuracy and ability to read a defense is a notch below KC, in my humble opinion.


Oh, I understand where you’re coming from and what you’re saying. And I hear you to be saying that you think Kirk is the better pure passer, not the better quarterback or Option. And I am definitely saying that I think Griffin is. I actually think his stats aren’t indicative of the degree to which he is better than Kirk. I absolutely agree with the approach of believing your eyes over the statistics. They can be twisted to prove anything. But when I’ve watched Griffin play and read a defense what I see is mastery pre snap as well as post snap on all of the plays he runs, be it “traditional” drop backs or option reads. I think what you’re keying in on is the same thing I am, but my conclusion favors Robert as better than Kirk. The amazing part of this is that I agree Griffin didn’t do this in college nearly as much as Kirk, which is why I am so shocked that he is better than Kirk. I personally think this is what has everyone else in the league (you know the players and coaches that have to game plan to stop him and Kyle’s offense) so gaga and incredulous. They anticipate the running ability and the pistol and all of that, what they are dumfounded by is his throwing. For instance, if I may be so bold as to put words in your mouth, from your assessment I would guess you view griffin’s touchdown to Garcon in the Dallas game as having been a late throw causing Garcon to have to reach behind him to catch the ball. I see that as the epitome of how well Robert reads defenses and the play. He saw a window that didn’t fit neatly in with the manner in which the play was designed, i.e. Pierre breaking free of the first zone defender to the left, in front of the safety on high side fo the play and then the linebacker to the right who was floating to the play’s left. So Robert made the right read to throw it into tight zone coverage, slightly behind Pierre and trust his receiver. That is just one play, but is indicative of Robert talent at Pure Passing. I don’t see Kirk with the ability to read that play, make that pass or pull the trigger. Actually, I think he would have pulled the trigger, if he would have seen it, which I doubt he would have.

Make no mistake though, if we didn't have Robert and hadn't taken Luck, I would be (as I already am) OVER THE MOON about Kirk. I love everything about him. I just love everything about Griffin more (which I hear you to be saying you do as well, too). I do disagree with you completely on what Griffin would be if we took away his running ability. Frankly, he'd still be a better pocket passer than Kirk.
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Postby Deadskins » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:39 pm

emoses14 wrote:I do disagree with you completely on what Griffin would be if we took away his running ability. Frankly, he'd still be a better pocket passer than Kirk.

+1
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Postby DarthMonk » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:46 pm

emoses14 wrote:
skinz1982 wrote:
emoses14 wrote:I saw both play in college as well. And I can understand how someone might have a different opinion because Kirk is really good, much better than a lot of "us" gave him credit for when drafted. But more importantly I've watched both play in the pros. Griffin is the better decision maker, quarterback, reader of defenses (whether it be in the context of the option read, pistol formation plays, shotgun or dropbacks). Cousins has 1 less INT in 1.7 games as Griffin does all year. Out of 48 attempts, Kirk's got 3 picks. In 351 attempts Griffin has 4. That tells me someone is reading defenses better and making better throws, from everywhere on the field, including the pocket. Being decisive in the pocket is only worthwhile if the decisions you make are good ones. AGAIN, I don't think Kirk makes bad decisions or is a bad qb, but on no metric is he better than Robert.


Admittedly I'm not a big stats guy, I go with what I observe. And I don't mean to sound like "that guy" but I played and coached (briefly) at the DIII level on the offensive side of the ball and would like to think I have a decent eye for these things.

Griffin's TD to INT ratio is impressive, but the thing is he is throwing to more open receivers due to the respect the defense has to give to his running ability in the zone read. And that's not to take anything away from RGIII, as having that impact on the defense is what makes him the more dangerous and better overall player. And it is hard to knock KC for some of those picks when you're coming in cold off the bench and have limited experience practicing with the ones. The timing and chemistry may not be there. A QB really needs time to get into a flow, I think yesterday's game was proof of that.

And please, don't misinterpret this for me saying that Cousins is the better PLAYER or the better OPTION. He's not. I'm just saying he's the better PURE PASSER and has more experience as a pocket passer, starting for three seasons at Michigan State in a traditional pro style. Knowing when to put the perfect touch and velocity on the ball is something you really can't coach and he has it, better than RGIII. He also throws a ball I think that is easier for WRs to catch (you'll noticed we didn't suffer dropsies yesterday) and he does great at leading his WRs so they get yards after the catch. He is also tremendous at the play action fake which is much more difficult than you would think to master. My biggest knock against him would be his footwork, which isn't terrible, and his arm strength is not tremendous, but certainly good enough.

Let me put it to you this way. If you take away RGIII's ability to run and improvise, and turn him strictly into a pocket passer, I don't think he could carve up a defense the way Cousins can. His mechanics, accuracy and ability to read a defense is a notch below KC, in my humble opinion.


Oh, I understand where you’re coming from and what you’re saying. And I hear you to be saying that you think Kirk is the better pure passer, not the better quarterback or Option. And I am definitely saying that I think Griffin is. I actually think his stats aren’t indicative of the degree to which he is better than Kirk. I absolutely agree with the approach of believing your eyes over the statistics. They can be twisted to prove anything. But when I’ve watched Griffin play and read a defense what I see is mastery pre snap as well as post snap on all of the plays he runs, be it “traditional” drop backs or option reads. I think what you’re keying in on is the same thing I am, but my conclusion favors Robert as better than Kirk. The amazing part of this is that I agree Griffin didn’t do this in college nearly as much as Kirk, which is why I am so shocked that he is better than Kirk. I personally think this is what has everyone else in the league (you know the players and coaches that have to game plan to stop him and Kyle’s offense) so gaga and incredulous. They anticipate the running ability and the pistol and all of that, what they are dumfounded by is his throwing. For instance, if I may be so bold as to put words in your mouth, from your assessment I would guess you view griffin’s touchdown to Garcon in the Dallas game as having been a late throw causing Garcon to have to reach behind him to catch the ball. I see that as the epitome of how well Robert reads defenses and the play. He saw a window that didn’t fit neatly in with the manner in which the play was designed, i.e. Pierre breaking free of the first zone defender to the left, in front of the safety on high side fo the play and then the linebacker to the right who was floating to the play’s left. So Robert made the right read to throw it into tight zone coverage, slightly behind Pierre and trust his receiver. That is just one play, but is indicative of Robert talent at Pure Passing. I don’t see Kirk with the ability to read that play, make that pass or pull the trigger. Actually, I think he would have pulled the trigger, if he would have seen it, which I doubt he would have.

Make no mistake though, if we didn't have Robert and hadn't taken Luck, I would be (as I already am) OVER THE MOON about Kirk. I love everything about him. I just love everything about Griffin more (which I hear you to be saying you do as well, too). I do disagree with you completely on what Griffin would be if we took away his running ability. Frankly, he'd still be a better pocket passer than Kirk.


^ This ^

My favorite Kirk play was the last TD pass with a free rusher in his face after play-action left. Great anticipation. We can only guess as to what Griff might have done with that call against that defense. I'm thinking he'd have done the same thing.
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Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:51 pm

Deadskins wrote:
skinz1982 wrote:Cousins has better touch and better accuracy. Also more decisive in the pocket.

Totally disagree.


I agree 100% with your disagreement! :twisted:
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Postby emoses14 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:54 pm

By the way. I can't tell you how much I love that this is the disagreement we're having about our QBs.

Finally, finally we have a team.
I know he got a pretty good zip on the ball. He has a quick release. . . once I seen a coupla' throws, I was just like 'Yeah, he's that dude.'"

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Postby SkinsJock » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:06 pm

I'm not that well versed and have ZERO experience playing the game

IMO I could not care what velocity or touch a QB has on the ball or how fast or slow he is on his feet ..

THE MOST IMPORTANT FACT is that Robert Griffin III has all the attributes that you need to lead this franchise AND ALSO play the position of QB

it matters not who is a better passer or a better runner - who is the better leader of the offense - RG3 will find a way to win - Kirk might find a way to help this franchise - BIG DIFFERENCE

RG3 is a MUCH better QB than Kirk Cousins

taking nothing away from Kirk but he's not even close to being a good QB - RG3 is beginning to look like a great QB - he went by 'good' a while ago
It's taken years for the Redskins to become as bad as we are - there is no way that the team is going to be consistently competitive in the near future, the problems here are complex - we'll win some games but it will take years to be good again

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Postby skinz1982 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:17 pm

emoses14 wrote:Oh, I understand where you’re coming from and what you’re saying. And I hear you to be saying that you think Kirk is the better pure passer, not the better quarterback or Option. And I am definitely saying that I think Griffin is. I actually think his stats aren’t indicative of the degree to which he is better than Kirk. I absolutely agree with the approach of believing your eyes over the statistics. They can be twisted to prove anything. But when I’ve watched Griffin play and read a defense what I see is mastery pre snap as well as post snap on all of the plays he runs, be it “traditional” drop backs or option reads. I think what you’re keying in on is the same thing I am, but my conclusion favors Robert as better than Kirk. The amazing part of this is that I agree Griffin didn’t do this in college nearly as much as Kirk, which is why I am so shocked that he is better than Kirk. I personally think this is what has everyone else in the league (you know the players and coaches that have to game plan to stop him and Kyle’s offense) so gaga and incredulous. They anticipate the running ability and the pistol and all of that, what they are dumfounded by is his throwing. For instance, if I may be so bold as to put words in your mouth, from your assessment I would guess you view griffin’s touchdown to Garcon in the Dallas game as having been a late throw causing Garcon to have to reach behind him to catch the ball. I see that as the epitome of how well Robert reads defenses and the play. He saw a window that didn’t fit neatly in with the manner in which the play was designed, i.e. Pierre breaking free of the first zone defender to the left, in front of the safety on high side fo the play and then the linebacker to the right who was floating to the play’s left. So Robert made the right read to throw it into tight zone coverage, slightly behind Pierre and trust his receiver. That is just one play, but is indicative of Robert talent at Pure Passing. I don’t see Kirk with the ability to read that play, make that pass or pull the trigger. Actually, I think he would have pulled the trigger, if he would have seen it, which I doubt he would have.

Make no mistake though, if we didn't have Robert and hadn't taken Luck, I would be (as I already am) OVER THE MOON about Kirk. I love everything about him. I just love everything about Griffin more (which I hear you to be saying you do as well, too). I do disagree with you completely on what Griffin would be if we took away his running ability. Frankly, he'd still be a better pocket passer than Kirk.


Hard to say if he would have made that specific read, lot of variables come into play. Reading defenses is an intangible and is difficult to conclusively say who is better. You would have to really study film and right now KC doesn't have a large sample size of games compared to RGIII. Generally speaking I think KC was probably more advanced and better prepared to read a defense in the pocket coming out of college. However RGIII now has played almost a full season in the NFL, so perhaps he is further along right now. My hunch is that given the same amount of NFL snaps, Cousins would be ahead of RGIII, but I can't say for certain.

Absolutely, RGIII has made some great throws and reads this year. Saying Cousins is a better passer isn't to diminish RGIII's skills as a passer, I'm just really high on Cousins as a pure passer. RGIII is still very good. He has the benefit of his legs and athleticism making life easier for him in the passing game. KC doesn't have that dimension but still excels...329 yards yesterday in his first start on the road against a good front 7? That is ridiculous.

Difficult to make apples to apples comparisons when one guy has played many more games, but from what I have seen so far, including college, Cousins is the more polished passer. We will have to agree to disagree.

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Postby skinz1982 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:20 pm

emoses14 wrote:By the way. I can't tell you how much I love that this is the disagreement we're having about our QBs.

Finally, finally we have a team.


Agreed!

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Postby Countertrey » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:58 pm

Cousins is a conventional quarterback... he has some athleticism... an excellent arm... pocket presence... clearly compares very favorably to most quarterbacks... He would be an excellent choice to lead the team. But... that's part of the problem. His offense would be essentially the same as 31 others... More precise and crisp than most... but still, within the same mold that all defenses practice to defend.

That's what gives Griffin an advantage... his exceptional arm... exceptional intelligence... exceptional competitiveness... his exceptional leadership... and his extraordinary athleticism... make him a dynamic force that cannot be approximated by any scout squad anywhere. He can do things that no one else can do. Simply put, it is super difficult for a defense to develop the skills needed to beat him... teams just don't have the time, and his bag of tricks is too big.

His "one of a kind"ness makes him the better quarterback. I also believe that, as he ages, and loses a step, he will become an outstanding pocket passer...
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:38 pm

DarthMonk wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
If we beat the Egirls and the Cowgirls lose to the Aints that would put the Skins @ 9-6 and the Cowpukes @ 8-7 going into the last game that would mean if the Skins lose to the Cowgirls the last game they would be tied in:

- Record
- Head to head
- Division record
- Common opponenets
- Conference record

the next tie breaker would be strenght of victory and right now the Skins have the edge in that. The Skins are +31 and the Pukes are -11. Obviouly that can change and will change over these next two weeks, but if we get thorugh Phily and the Giants lose one of the next two it looks like we could win the NFCE even w/o sweeping the Cowgirls!


How the teams currently stand in the division tiebreakers:

First tiebreaker - head-to-head: Redskins (2-1), Giants (2-2), Cowboys (1-2)
Second tiebreaker - division record: Redskins (3-1), Giants (2-3), Cowboys (3-2)
Third tiebreaker - common opponents: Redskins (5-4), Giants (7-2), Cowboys (7-2)



Your scenario would do this head-to-head:

all 2-2

to division record:

Redskins (4-2)
Giants (3-3 at best)
Cowboys (4-2)

and common oponents:

Redskins (6-5)
Giants (7-4 at worst)
Cowboys (8-3)

We cannot clinch East this week. We can clinch Wild Card.

We must sweep Cowboys to win East.

DarthMonk

I got the common opponents wrong. You are correct. If the Skins best the Egirls and lose to the Cowgirls the Cowgirls would win the division. That is assuming the Giants lose another game.

7 in a row ensures us the NFCE title... Lets do that!
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Postby Deadskins » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:00 pm

skinz1982 wrote:We will have to agree to disagree.

I disagree.
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