Evaluate How Coaches Used RGIII vs Seattle and All Year

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Postby RayNAustin » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:39 pm

The Hogster wrote:
GoodOldDays wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:It's also noteworthy that the Doctor probably made about 10 Grand an hour repairing the damage, so what incentive does he actually have for doing what is necessary to prevent such an injury from occurring? His good heart? His integrity? I'd say both of those things are now up for debate.


What evidence do we have to think one of the country's most well-known (and consequently wealthiest) surgeons would disregard the Hippocratic oath in order to make a few grand?

Where is the evidence he did anything wrong?


Great question. Although I'll warn you. Ray has been weeping over a carton of spilled milk since last Sunday. He doesn't want to be realistic. Instead he wants everyone to join a chorus of somber weeping, blame spreading, and will eventually circulate a 'Fire Somebody' petition shortly.

Just a warning.


Of all of the inane attitudes and opinions, this beats them all. For you to characterize the severe injury of our most prized player, and one the franchise traded an UNPRECEDENTED FORTUNE in draft picks for as a carton of spilled milk, qualifies you for .... well the rules don't allow me to elaborate. Use your imagination ... and then multiply by 100.

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Postby RayNAustin » Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:15 pm

The Hogster wrote:So the suggestion or implication in Ray's post is that there is a conflict of interest--subconcioiusly or otherwise, that gives Dr. Andrews the incentive to perhaps allow a player a longer leash, expose him to a risk because ultimately he will get to do the surgery and make more money?

Ridiculous.


That is an absurd over-simplification of the situation, and a distortion of my opinion.

1) The Doctor has no say in who plays and who doesn't. That is the Head Coach's decision entirely. And it's clear that it was Shanahan's desire that RG3 play, and one has to assume that the Doctor would understand this.

2) The Doctor works for the Redskins, not RG3, and after the previous mini-controversy involving Shanahan's claims and the Doctor's subsequent comments that appeared to contradict Shanahan, the Doctor later changed his story, and that defines where the "power" resides in this relationship between Andrews, Shanahan and the Redskin's organization as a whole. It certainly doesn't rest in the Doctor's hands, and it never did.

3) The Doctor has been tight lipped since this previous episode, and has responded to requests for details about the operation he performed, citing that he is not authorized to comment any further, as per the Redskins.

4) The Doctor has demonstrated beyond any doubt, that he takes his instructions from the Redskins, they don't take instructions from him. And that would naturally carry over to the Doctor avoiding a situation where he would place himself in a position of countermanding the decision and obvious desire of the Redskins (Shanahan) by objecting to RG3 continuing to play. That the Doctor has such a storied reputation, allows him this leeway, citing his expertise, including the inbuilt plausible deniability inherent in the fact that injuries can happen to otherwise healthy players at any time, and it would be impossible to prove when or why RG3 might suffer a more severe injury. And after all, who is qualified to question the opinion of such a renown expert, particularly when the player himself insists he's alright and able to play?

The Hogster wrote:My fiance is a doctor. And, trust me, their reputations are more valuable than their ability. People don't go to the doctor who screwed up someone--especially not someone as high profile as RGIII. There are probably several Orthapedic Surgeons who can perform surgery with the same skill as Andrews. But, Andrews has the reputation and respect because of his record. I don't buy that. Especially not for a 72 year old surgeon who isn't building a practice, but whose probably making more money just for his presence on the sideline than he is for a surgery.

Hell, he was on the sideline of the BCS Championship game the day after the Skins game.


This is an excellent point, though you seem to miss it yourself. Reputation is important, and Andrews already has an unquestionable one, from a surgical expertise perspective. But let me tell you what he doesn't want to develop .... a reputation as a medical advisor who appears hostile to the positions and interests of the employers paying him, like the Redskins.

And if you think there is some benevolent law in place that automatically defers to the player's best interests when that might conflict with the team's desires or goals, then you are hopelessly lost in a fantasy world that never did exist. Frankly, the only thing the Redskins are actually concerned about is winning, and the only reason they'd be concerned about Robert's injury is if that translates negatively in pursuit of that goal. So long as he's ready and able to carry the jockey by the time the next race is about to start, he'll get the premium hay. For those who's value is deemed inconsequential to that winning, they are summarily dismissed without ceremony. That's just the nature of the business, because it is a business and a very cold blooded one at that.

This is why there is an NFL Payers Union ... to protect the interests of the players ... protect them from whom? Exactly .. protect them from the teams to which they are under contract with. This is why there are established, mandatory protocols now in place dealing with head injuries, because prior to these rules, teams and coaches would routinely send players back onto the field even if they couldn't remember their names. Just ask Shanny about that one ... he sent Terrell Davis onto the field to use as a decoy, when Davis was suffering such a severe migraine headache that he couldn't even see ... his vision was gone. Oh the love and heartfelt concern for the player ... it's heart warming indeed. It's enough to get ya all misty eyed.

Now, you might dismiss this as sour grapes, but LaRon Landry has a thing or two to say about the Redskins Coaching Staff, Trainers and Doctors, and it ain't a glowing endorsement. Of course, the Redskins wanted him to submit to surgery and he was against it ... so they got rid of him, and this team, suffering serious problems in the secondary let him go, and what did he do? Well he came back and played his way into the pro bowl on a legitimate Super Bowl Contender. And what did he have to say about the Redskins? He said he had great respect for Joe Gibbs and staff, but ZERO respect for Shanahan, the trainers and the doctors there now. He said there are some people who love their jobs and do great work, and then there are others who simply have the "title" and couldn't care less, which defines the Redskins staff in place under Shanahan. There may be an element of hard feelings speaking here, but where there is smoke, there is fire, and it's not like Landry is the only one with such harsh opinions of this group.

And if you doubt how much the organization cares about it's players, you only need to look at that pot hole of a field, and you'll realize that the players aren't afforded the same level of concern for the surface they have to play on, compared to the immaculate landscaping that Snyder and Shanahan no doubt enjoy in their own backyards .. but I digress ....

At the end of the day, Shanahan has a cozy ally in Andrews. He has Andrews reputation as an expert to fall back on, to defend his decision to keep RG3 on the field, implying that he left it up to the Doctor's discretion and expertise to decide if it was safe for RG3 to continue playing. The Doctor understands the relationship between employee and employer, and would not likely create a conflict by insisting that RG3 be puled from the game. Doing so would not only strain the relationship with Shanahan, but might create the image or reputation as hostile toward the desires and interests of the signer of the checks ... recognizing that the professional sports world is a small one, and word travels quickly.

This is where the unavoidable conflict of interests comes into play ... not in that one paycheck for standing on the Redskin sidelines or performing the surgery on RG3, but in the undesirable perception that the Good Doctor might not be a "team player".

So, get a clue, will ya?

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Postby The Hogster » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:58 am

RayNAustin wrote:
So, get a clue, will ya?


:-#

How ironic.

Read this twice to make sure there wasn't a point somewhere that I missed. Nope.

You have a flair for the dramatic, I'll give you that. But, you offer nothing more than an emotional rant detailing your speculation of what may have been in the minds of people. That's something you don't know. And, despite using many words, you aren't very convincing that your opinion is likely true.

Additionally, nothing you have said offers any solution to whatever problem you have with how things are being done, or who is doing them. This is what is known as :-({|=

Not only can I never get back the 5 minutes I wasted reading this speech, but I walk away from that post knowing for certain that you aren't certain what it is you're saying either.
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Postby RayNAustin » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:17 pm

The Hogster wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:
So, get a clue, will ya?


:-#

How ironic.

Read this twice to make sure there wasn't a point somewhere that I missed. Nope.

You have a flair for the dramatic, I'll give you that. But, you offer nothing more than an emotional rant detailing your speculation of what may have been in the minds of people. That's something you don't know. And, despite using many words, you aren't very convincing that your opinion is likely true.

Additionally, nothing you have said offers any solution to whatever problem you have with how things are being done, or who is doing them. This is what is known as :-({|=

Not only can I never get back the 5 minutes I wasted reading this speech, but I walk away from that post knowing for certain that you aren't certain what it is you're saying either.


This isn't overly surprising .... coming from a person who characterizes a disaster like this as analogous to "spilled milk". Though I gotta tell you, this isn't your finest hour, if you were trying to demonstrate some form of intelligence. I'll have you know that the points you claim to be missing, really are right there in front of your nose ... and in many cases, I even numbered them for you! Had I known that I needed to dial this down to the level of "See Spot Run", I would have adjusted accordingly, so as not to waste your time or mine. So, just for you, I will simplify and highlight the points more thoughtfully:

Point # 1 - Mike Shanahan is a egomaniac who has proven on more than one occasion to have no reservations about twisting the truth inside out. Consequently, nothing the man says can be trusted or taken at face value. Just as problematic, as these narcissistic types tend to do, Mike allows self interests to govern his decisions, rather than good judgement. That leaves us with a man in charge who's decisions cannot be trusted either. This is a dreadful combination, and a situation I contend cannot be "fixed", because integrity, like good judgement, are qualities you either possess or you don't. And Mike Shanahan doesn't. And I am by far not the first person to highlight these flaws.

Point # 2- Lack of integrity and poor judgement always leads to poor outcomes, regardless of the short term gains or successes one might achieve. And Mike Shanahan's story with the Redskins can be summarized as a continuous cycle of one step forward and two steps back, with this third season being the epitome of limited success outweighed by the excessive costs paid for it. And the results don't lie .. they are what they are. And though some claim "hindsight" at work here, the facts are, many had been voicing their concerns and warnings about the potential disaster that has now become reality. That, sir, is foresight, not hindsight, but unfortunately, none of these warnings could be heard, or they fell on deaf ears, at Redskin Park. So the Redskins won the NFC East Title, but sacrificed their most valuable player in the process, while jeopardizing next season in so doing.

Point # 3 - The mishandling of this most valuable player continues even now. Not only did the coach and staff and trainers and the nation's most prominent orthopedic surgeon ALL fail miserably to protect this phenomenal Kid's health by allowing him to play injured, they continue failing him now in an effort to paint this disaster in a more favorable light for the benefit of themselves. By establishing a totally unrealistic expectation for recovery time, beginning with a preposterous 6 month window as a possibility, they have already set the stage, months in advance, for additional harm to occur to RG3's career, should he push his rehabilitation too hard, and return to action too soon in pursuing such an ill conceived goal. This reflects the same poor judgement and absence of appropriate caution and care that facilitated this disaster in the first place.
Given this kid's already established inclination for pushing himself to extremes already, this is the very worst advice he could receive moving forward.

Point # 4 - Points 1 thru 3 show that there are major issues of questionable integrity and judgement with the leadership of this organization. Point # 3 suggests that those who's poor judgement and poor decisions facilitated this terrible result are not the appropriate people to manage it moving forward.

If you still require a "see spot run" summary of the overall point, here it is ... the self serving, dishonest idiot most responsible for this disaster can no longer be trusted, and must go. If he stays, expect more of the same.

You may disagree with that point, but don't claim there is no point being made.

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Postby The Hogster » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:58 pm

RayNAustin wrote:
Point # 1 - Mike Shanahan is a egomaniac who has proven on more than one occasion to have no reservations about twisting the truth inside out. Consequently, nothing the man says can be trusted or taken at face value. Just as problematic, as these narcissistic types tend to do, Mike allows self interests to govern his decisions, rather than good judgement. That leaves us with a man in charge who's decisions cannot be trusted either. This is a dreadful combination, and a situation I contend cannot be "fixed", because integrity, like good judgement, are qualities you either possess or you don't. And Mike Shanahan doesn't. And I am by far not the first person to highlight these flaws.


Need help getting off that soapbox? I've highlighted examples of your flair for the dramatic. Your rhetoric is a masterful example of hyperbole. All of your first "point" is merely your opinion of Mike Shanahan's character. And, while you're entitled to your opinion. It's just that..your opinion. An opinion isn't necessarily truth though, which is a concept you seem to not fully grasp.

I would argue that your opinion isn't even based on fact. Mike has shown the ability to identify when he's wrong and cut losses or make a change. If he had a crystal ball, he obviously would have pulled RGIII from the game. Hindsight is 20/20.


Point # 2- Lack of integrity and poor judgement always leads to poor outcomes, regardless of the short term gains or successes one might achieve.


More exaggeration. Your conclusion that Mike has no integrity and poor judgment is something you present as a fact. Many would beg to differ. He's no Joe Gibbs, but most coaches aren't. He's old school where you don't tell the truth to the media--only your team. Anything to gain a competitive advantage you do. For you to judge his integrity based on the fact that he misleads the media is borderline insane. Ever heard of Bill Bellichick? He's pretty good.

The phrase "always leads to poor outcomes" stuck out to me. Were you around for his 2 Superbowl wins? How about the complete overhaul of this team? The NFC East title? A 5-1 division record? Those aren't "poor outcomes." Was drafting Alfred Morris in the 6th round poor judgment? How about Kirk Cousins in the 4th?? Signing Pierre Garcon when most called him a #2 WR--another poor outcome? Hyperbole. Get a hold of yourself.

Point # 3 - The mishandling of this most valuable player continues even now. Not only did the coach and staff and trainers and the nation's most prominent orthopedic surgeon ALL fail miserably to protect this phenomenal Kid's health by allowing him to play injured, they continue failing him now in an effort to paint this disaster in a more favorable light for the benefit of themselves. By establishing a totally unrealistic expectation for recovery time, beginning with a preposterous 6 month window as a possibility, they have already set the stage, months in advance, for additional harm to occur to RG3's career, should he push his rehabilitation too hard, and return to action too soon in pursuing such an ill conceived goal.


So, in your mind, it's more feasible to believe that Dr. James Andrews & his father RGII, and his former surgeon who is Harvard educated are all lying--but you, you have the correct answer despite having no information or expertise. And, whose the narcissist?

Point # 4 - Points 1 thru 3 show that there are major issues of questionable integrity and judgement with the leadership of this organization.


No they don't. Points 1-3 are just you ranting and telling everyone your opinion. They aren't even points. They're statements. A point is what I am making. For instance, when you say the 6-8 month recovery period is unrealistic, you rely only on your bare assertion. I can quote Dr. Andrews, and Dr. Lidickes who say the same--both have knowledge an information that you don't.
Point # 3 suggests that those who's poor judgement and poor decisions facilitated this terrible result are not the appropriate people to manage it moving forward.


More opinion. And, in my view--your opinion is assinine. This franchise has finally not only put itself in good fiscal shape with the Salary Cap (even with the penalty) but we've built a team that can contend for a Superbowl for the next several years with the infusion of youth and talent. High scoring offense. #1 rush offense. A defense that is coming on despite a rash of injuries. Yet, you think the people running it are not the "appropriate people to manage it moving forward." I'm almost crying laughing at your logic or lack thereof.

... the self serving, dishonest idiot most responsible for this disaster can no longer be trusted, and must go.


This sounds like a bitter ex-wife.
If he stays, expect more of the same.


This sounds like the bitter ex-wife's girlfriend consoling her.

You may disagree with that point, but don't claim there is no point being made.


You're trying to make a point, but a point without factual support is just an opinion. And, you seem to think we are all entitled to your opinion.
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Postby GoodOldDays » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:04 pm

RayNAustin wrote:By establishing a totally unrealistic expectation for recovery time, beginning with a preposterous 6 month window as a possibility, they have already set the stage, months in advance, for additional harm to occur to RG3's career, should he push his rehabilitation too hard, and return to action too soon in pursuing such an ill conceived goal. This reflects the same poor judgement and absence of appropriate caution and care that facilitated this disaster in the first place.
Given this kid's already established inclination for pushing himself to extremes already, this is the very worst advice he could receive moving forward.


Can you pass along a link? I hadn't read that Shanny/Andrews have already established recovery timetable.

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Postby The Hogster » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:06 pm

GoodOldDays wrote:
RayNAustin wrote:By establishing a totally unrealistic expectation for recovery time, beginning with a preposterous 6 month window as a possibility, they have already set the stage, months in advance, for additional harm to occur to RG3's career, should he push his rehabilitation too hard, and return to action too soon in pursuing such an ill conceived goal. This reflects the same poor judgement and absence of appropriate caution and care that facilitated this disaster in the first place.
Given this kid's already established inclination for pushing himself to extremes already, this is the very worst advice he could receive moving forward.


Can you pass along a link? I hadn't read that Shanny/Andrews have already established recovery timetable.


The timetable was mentioned in a few articles and came from Dr. Andrews from my understanding. He just doesn't believe it much like everything else.
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Postby fetus » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:56 pm

I like how he was used. He scrambled when necessary and most design runs were to the sideline and went well. The kid has a hell of an arm and will continue to, his accuracy when rolling to his left is unbelievable and his play action fakes are among the league best. This being said when he runs he is normally smart, minus the falcons game. I would like to see less designed runs in the future just to increase the chance of lengthening his carrer.
As long as the Shanahan's continue to adapt the offense around Robert Griffin III's strenghts, whatever they may be, I am 100% supportive of the coaching staff's use of him.
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Postby GoodOldDays » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:34 pm

The Hogster wrote:
The timetable was mentioned in a few articles and came from Dr. Andrews from my understanding. He just doesn't believe it much like everything else.


The only quote I saw from Andrews was a pretty generic one complimenting Griffin's worth ethic and hoping he'd be able to be ready for the '13 season. Unless there was something more than that I don't quite understand the criticism.

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Postby SkinsJock » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:06 pm

IMO - both Kyle and Mike did a good job with RG3

Kyle was sent down to Texas to get together with RG3 and go over what he and Mike had in mind - they came up with an offense that they all felt would ease the transition to being an NFL QB

RG3 has said that it took a while for him to become comfortable with the read-option and the offense out of the pistol formation

having seen what Colin K did in SFO last Saturday, I am VERY excited to see the Redskins on offense again

the offense that Kyle and Mike want to run is similar but better and RG3 suits this to a T ...
Executing this offense PROPERLY will mean that he puts himself at less risk by taking what the defense gives him and more importantly, not trying to be an open field runner


RG3 has better speed than Kaepernick and a much better arm and touch in the passing game

I'm looking forward to defending the NFC East title
It's taken years for the Redskins to become as bad as we are - there is no way that the team is going to be consistently competitive in the near future, the problems here are complex - unfortunately with Dan Snyder, it is what it is

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Postby The Hogster » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:18 pm

The use of RGIII is not the issue. Russell Wilson & Kaepernick are used in a similar way. They rarely get hit. Continue doing what we are doing, and RGIII must learn from this and protect himself.
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Postby SkinsJock » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:57 pm

THAT's the idea - I think that RG3 was getting this and I think that both Mike & Kyle were trying to 'use him' better and in a way that minimized the risk of big hits

I'm looking forward to RG3 coming back with a lot better understanding of what he can do and what he should not try to do
It's taken years for the Redskins to become as bad as we are - there is no way that the team is going to be consistently competitive in the near future, the problems here are complex - unfortunately with Dan Snyder, it is what it is

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Postby DarthMonk » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:21 pm

The Hogster wrote:The use of RGIII is not the issue. Russell Wilson & Kaepernick are used in a similar way. They rarely get hit. Continue doing what we are doing, and RGIII must learn from this and protect himself.


Yes and no. They were used similarly in the regular season - but even then, only later in the year and not nearly as often. For instance (maybe someone can find the stat), I believe Griff went to the ground 28 times vs the Bengals alone. We ran triple option and read option from the pistol repeatedly. We ran a cultural icon with braggadocio. Defenses head-hunted and destroyed him AFTER he pitched many times. Any time he ran (and even when he didn't) guys were looking to hurt him whether he slid or not. Even Ngata could have touched him down but instead, launched, as Mike Tyson used to say, with "bad intention." In contrast, the 49ers and Hawks have gradually implemented pistol and such as a compliment - not a base feature.

Neither was used for 3 quarters while severely damaged as Griff was.

If only we had actually given him 2-4 weeks of actual rest and rehab after the original LCL. Not doing so was short-sighted. What we did against Seattle was "throwing good money after bad." I remain hopeful that he comes back as good as or better than ever.

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Postby El Mexican » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:54 pm

I also believe RGIII was used excessively on designed running plays.

Most of the times I saw him launch forward for a couple of more yards,
as if he were a RB. That is not good.

Dude NEEDS to learn when to slide and/or get of bounds.

I think he should have never played against the Cowboys. Starting him against Seattle was pushing his luck way too far.

I understand the whole "dance with the one that brought you" idea, but I expected better judgement from the coaches.

Let's hope he and the people around him can do a better job next year.

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Postby StorminMormon86 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:37 pm

I personally think he was over-used after the Ravens game. He should have rested one more week after the Browns game, IMO. We did play the Eagles after the Browns and I think Cousins could have led us to another victory.

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