North Korea

Wanna talk about politics, your favorite hockey team... vegetarian recipes?
JSPB22
Online
User avatar
Posts: 16093
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:03 am
Location: Location, LOCATION!

Postby Deadskins » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:17 pm

Redskin in Canada wrote:Today, you have fanatics with the capability of WMD in Iran and North Korea with dreams of martyrdom in defence of their causes. Both regions are equally unstable now, in my view.

I recently gave my views on disputes in Asia in an international conference of experts on this field in your country. It was well received. :wink:

I don't think that report should be well recieved. :shock:
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.


Hog Bowl IV Champion (2012)

Hail to the Redskins!

Hog
User avatar
Posts: 760
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Postby HTTRRG3ALMO » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:18 pm

SkinsJock wrote:I understand this idiot has nuclear weapons - do they have the capability to put a nuclear warhead on a missile that is capable of reaching the continental US?


Obama doesn't believe they do...look into that any way you wish; I personally don't like the word "believe". In other words why doesn't our country's leadership know for sure?

However, its also irrelevant whether or not N. Korea has the ability to do so; they're obviously attempting it.

What has me scratching my head is why are we waiting for them to fully have this capacity? I'm all about a peaceful world; sometimes there needs to be conflict to reach that goal because some people cannot be reasoned with and only want to destroy the world.

Now there's a major threat that could affect many countries. I really wish there would be a multi-nation surgical removal of the N. Korean government. Yes, it will be a messy and very drawn out/time consuming process, but if we wait till this guy nukes cities, we all will be in a far worse position.

Let's say NK does nuke a country, then that country nukes NK. The more "nuking" that happens, the more desensitized the world will become to it; eventually making it an "acceptable" means of warfare as opposed to a last resort emergency survival weapon.

What I'm getting at is the more we're exposed to something, the less "disgusting" it will become.

~~~~~~
Posts: 10208
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:59 am
Location: Canada

Postby Redskin in Canada » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:22 pm

Deadskins wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:Today, you have fanatics with the capability of WMD in Iran and North Korea with dreams of martyrdom in defence of their causes. Both regions are equally unstable now, in my view.

I recently gave my views on disputes in Asia in an international conference of experts on this field in your country. It was well received. :wink:

I don't think that report should be well recieved. :shock:

You should inform them. :lol:
Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans over the last decade. Stay away from football operations !!!

the 'mudge
Posts: 14608
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Curmudgeon Corner, Maine

Postby Countertrey » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:09 pm

... and, the FBI, arguably the most effective law enforcement organizaiton in the world, blew a chance to prevent the bombing in Boston. While I do respect your accumen... you advocate more of the same... and each time we "do more of the same" we ultimately get another, more dangerous bluster, immediately accompanied by an openly cynical act of extortion, with NO intention of long term compliance. The threats currently being made, unlike any in the past, justify pre-emption.... is it warranted? I have no idea... but... I do NOT have faith in a government that struggles to call terrorism "terrorism"...

I see Neville Chamberlain... again... and again... "I believe it is peace for our time...
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."
"That's a clown question, bro"
- - - - - - - - - - Bryce Harper, DC Statesman
"But Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
That he didn't, didn't already have"
- - - - - - - - - - Dewey Bunnell, America

~~~~~~
Posts: 10208
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:59 am
Location: Canada

Postby Redskin in Canada » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:46 pm

Countertrey wrote:... and, the FBI, arguably the most effective law enforcement organizaiton in the world, blew a chance to prevent the bombing in Boston. While I do respect your accumen... you advocate more of the same... and each time we "do more of the same" we ultimately get another, more dangerous bluster, immediately accompanied by an openly cynical act of extortion, with NO intention of long term compliance. The threats currently being made, unlike any in the past, justify pre-emption.... is it warranted? I have no idea... but... I do NOT have faith in a government that struggles to call terrorism "terrorism"...

I see Neville Chamberlain... again... and again... "I believe it is peace for our time...
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

I do not feel that the general public appreciates the true complexity of this problem, particularly in the context of several other regional disputes.

You should not lose faith in your government. Historically, it has done the right thing most of the times. :wink:

All peaceful options must be exhausted before hell breaks out.
Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans over the last decade. Stay away from football operations !!!

Hog
User avatar
Posts: 760
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Postby HTTRRG3ALMO » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:33 am

Redskin in Canada wrote:
Countertrey wrote:... and, the FBI, arguably the most effective law enforcement organizaiton in the world, blew a chance to prevent the bombing in Boston. While I do respect your accumen... you advocate more of the same... and each time we "do more of the same" we ultimately get another, more dangerous bluster, immediately accompanied by an openly cynical act of extortion, with NO intention of long term compliance. The threats currently being made, unlike any in the past, justify pre-emption.... is it warranted? I have no idea... but... I do NOT have faith in a government that struggles to call terrorism "terrorism"...

I see Neville Chamberlain... again... and again... "I believe it is peace for our time...
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

I do not feel that the general public appreciates the true complexity of this problem, particularly in the context of several other regional disputes.

You should not lose faith in your government. Historically, it has done the right thing most of the times. :wink:

All peaceful options must be exhausted before @#!*% breaks out.


With all respect, peaceful options never solved this problem over the past several years. N. Korea's leadership is getting crazier and crazier with each successor.

If a leader is threatening nuclear warfare simply to bolster his own power/international manipulation, he's a threat to the international community and all countries should see him as such.

If we allow this guy to threaten nuclear warfare the way he is and just give him food as appeasement, what message is that sending to the world? "Its ok to act crazy and threaten to destroy countries to get your way." This is serious!! Someone is going to cry wolf so many times that we're going to eventually become unalarmed by such threats.

I don't want to see the US go in there alone. Not that we couldn't handle it, but because I'd like for us to lose the "world police" image.

Its painful to write this, but if you look at history, power hungry people who don't care about the world around them can never be talked into sanity. War has been the only thing that has brought peace when dealing with leaderships like N. Korea. I don't like this, but history is written in ink.

the 'mudge
Posts: 14608
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Curmudgeon Corner, Maine

Postby Countertrey » Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:42 am

Redskin in Canada wrote:
Countertrey wrote:... and, the FBI, arguably the most effective law enforcement organizaiton in the world, blew a chance to prevent the bombing in Boston. While I do respect your accumen... you advocate more of the same... and each time we "do more of the same" we ultimately get another, more dangerous bluster, immediately accompanied by an openly cynical act of extortion, with NO intention of long term compliance. The threats currently being made, unlike any in the past, justify pre-emption.... is it warranted? I have no idea... but... I do NOT have faith in a government that struggles to call terrorism "terrorism"...

I see Neville Chamberlain... again... and again... "I believe it is peace for our time...
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

I do not feel that the general public appreciates the true complexity of this problem, particularly in the context of several other regional disputes.

You should not lose faith in your government. Historically, it has done the right thing most of the times. :wink:

All peaceful options must be exhausted before hell breaks out.


RiC... it appears to me that the only "peaceful" option truly in play here is appeasement... again, and again... It is a pathetic excuse for action, and we all know where that leads.
"That's a clown question, bro"
- - - - - - - - - - Bryce Harper, DC Statesman
"But Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
That he didn't, didn't already have"
- - - - - - - - - - Dewey Bunnell, America

~~~~~~
Posts: 10208
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:59 am
Location: Canada

Postby Redskin in Canada » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:06 am

Countertrey wrote:RiC... it appears to me that the only "peaceful" option truly in play here is appeasement... again, and again... It is a pathetic excuse for action, and we all know where that leads.

Again, I do not think most of the public is capable to discuss the complexity and danger surrounding this issue not only on itself but particularly in the context of other regional disputes.

First, I am not sure that most readers would know how painful and deadly this conflict would become, not only to the armed forces involved, but to the general Korean civilian population north and south.

Second, most readers are not aware of the extremely complex choices that States in the region might need to make in the context of other regional disputes where their "allies" might become foes or their foes might become allies.

Third, the war-now logic not only fails to address the above two points. It also fails to explain some of the most important political and economic transformations of our time: the fall of the Soviet Union and the political transformation of Russia; and the transformation of the PRC economic system from being one of the most backward and fanatical cultural revolution to what amounts to a market system producing one of the largest GDP and sustained growth rates in the world over the last decade.

So, before you ask your government to pull the trigger, remember: the people in charge have a lot more information and elements than those which can be explained to the public in a few minutes interview in CNN for general public consumption. I share your frustration. I just do not feel that you have all the elements to make te call accurately or correctly.

However, for what it is worth and the initial point of this thread: It is perfectly clear to all that these recent events are nothing but a bluff with the purpose to extract advantages at a negotiation table. The true important or even realistic issue is not whether military action might be taken but how those negotiations are conducted. And relating to that point, the strongest response should be: no food, no lifting of sanctions, no relief of any kind, no reward of any kind for criminal behaviour.

This response is stronger than anything else.
Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans over the last decade. Stay away from football operations !!!

Hog
User avatar
Posts: 760
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Postby HTTRRG3ALMO » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:02 pm

Countertrey wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:
Countertrey wrote:... and, the FBI, arguably the most effective law enforcement organizaiton in the world, blew a chance to prevent the bombing in Boston. While I do respect your accumen... you advocate more of the same... and each time we "do more of the same" we ultimately get another, more dangerous bluster, immediately accompanied by an openly cynical act of extortion, with NO intention of long term compliance. The threats currently being made, unlike any in the past, justify pre-emption.... is it warranted? I have no idea... but... I do NOT have faith in a government that struggles to call terrorism "terrorism"...

I see Neville Chamberlain... again... and again... "I believe it is peace for our time...
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

I do not feel that the general public appreciates the true complexity of this problem, particularly in the context of several other regional disputes.

You should not lose faith in your government. Historically, it has done the right thing most of the times. :wink:

All peaceful options must be exhausted before @#!*% breaks out.


RiC... it appears to me that the only "peaceful" option truly in play here is appeasement... again, and again... It is a pathetic excuse for action, and we all know where that leads.


Exactly, and this "appeasement" is merely demonstrating that the US is now willing to negotiate with terrorists...be prepared for more of this from other nations/groups if we continue to allow this with N. Korea.

the 'mudge
Posts: 14608
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Curmudgeon Corner, Maine

Postby Countertrey » Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:30 pm

Redskin in Canada wrote:
However, for what it is worth and the initial point of this thread: It is perfectly clear to all that these recent events are nothing but a bluff with the purpose to extract advantages at a negotiation table. The true important or even realistic issue is not whether military action might be taken but how those negotiations are conducted. And relating to that point, the strongest response should be: no food, no lifting of sanctions, no relief of any kind, no reward of any kind for criminal behaviour.

This response is stronger than anything else.


Frankly our government has already suggested that they are willing to talk... I have a problem with that... In fact, I have a problem with providing them ANY assistance... period. Their repetitive history of extortion, then reniging... must result, finally, in the same consequence suffered by the "boy who cried wolf". Never let a thug dictate the terms. Yet... we never learn. I have every confidence that this administration will appease, just as in the past... and it will come back, with an even higher cost, once the thug has a true nuclear arsenal.

At that point, it will be... woulda, coulda, shoulda... and the cost then will be truly severe. "uhhh... maybe we should have done something BEFORE they blew up Tokyo, and Honolulu... " It will come to that... as you note... this is NOT a stable leadership...

BTW... please stop suggesting that we are too ignorant to "understand"... we understand that there are complexities... there were similar considerations in 1938... how effective was appeasement of the madman then? Shouldn't we learn from history?
"That's a clown question, bro"
- - - - - - - - - - Bryce Harper, DC Statesman
"But Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
That he didn't, didn't already have"
- - - - - - - - - - Dewey Bunnell, America

~~~~~~
Posts: 10208
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:59 am
Location: Canada

Postby Redskin in Canada » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:00 pm

Countertrey wrote:BTW... please stop suggesting that we are too ignorant to "understand"... we understand that there are complexities... there were similar considerations in 1938... how effective was appeasement of the madman then? Shouldn't we learn from history?

Not having all the facts and information does not make anybody ignorant, it just often leads them to wrong and untimely conclusions.

It is precisely because history points at different directions and not only the one you highlight, which urges most leaders and experts to be cautious. Not a single respectable political leader or expert in the world is urging for military action in that region at this time.

You did not address any of the three items in my post above. I am not asking you to. I will only say that there is nothing wrong with TALKS, which do not mean CONCESSIONS at all.

There are a couple of very appropriate quotes from Leo Tolstoy (War and Peace ) and Sun Tzu (The Art of war) in these circumstances:

"The strongest of all warriors are these two: time and patience.”

and one of the ever favourites among military scholars

“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”
Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans over the last decade. Stay away from football operations !!!

the 'mudge
Posts: 14608
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Curmudgeon Corner, Maine

Postby Countertrey » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:18 pm

The administration has already suggested that certain behaviors will yield consideration of reciprocation...
More of the same... It is not possible to negotiate in good faith with one who has no honor... we'll be here again in 2 years... except their weapons will be better... I have NO faith in this administration to deal effectively with this tyrant. They are even less capable than past administrations (which have failed repeatedly using the same strategy).

Only the PRC is capable of dealing with the thugs in P'yongyang without violence... and they will not... and "those who know"... simply advocate more of the same. Your choice of quotes is interesting... but, even "the supreme art of war" requires audacity... and a believable capacity to use force if warranted...
We certainly have that capacity... but P'yongyang has absolutely no concern that we would resolve to use it.

How did Reagan handle the Soviets?
"That's a clown question, bro"
- - - - - - - - - - Bryce Harper, DC Statesman
"But Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
That he didn't, didn't already have"
- - - - - - - - - - Dewey Bunnell, America

the 'mudge
Posts: 14608
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Curmudgeon Corner, Maine

Postby Countertrey » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:39 pm

RiC said:
The true important or even realistic issue is not whether military action might be taken but how those negotiations are conducted. And relating to that point, the strongest response should be: no food, no lifting of sanctions, no relief of any kind, no reward of any kind for criminal behaviour.


Here's my problem with this... criminal behavior is the norm for P'yongyang. It is a criminal cartel, headed by a thug. How many South Korean's have been murdered by this regime? How many Americans? Who has been held to account? No one. Ultimately, the North Korean temper tantrum results in getting their way... every time. They have always been rewarded... and they will be rewarded this time...

to our peril. The next time, perhaps the time after that... it will ultimately not be a bluff... What would your response be then??? "coulda, woulda, shoulda... "
"That's a clown question, bro"
- - - - - - - - - - Bryce Harper, DC Statesman
"But Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
That he didn't, didn't already have"
- - - - - - - - - - Dewey Bunnell, America

|||||||
Posts: 4566
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:11 pm
Location: Somewhere, out there.

Postby UK Skins Fan » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:58 am

On a lighter note: I went to see Olympus Has Fallen last night. Complete and utter garbage of course. Timely and topical garbage with a corny Independence Day style speech at the end. I think Gerard Butler may have shown us the way in this film: just kill everybody. It seemed to work for him.

I'd like to put on record that I only went to see this film because I was bored, NOT because I base my whole life on the teachings of Gerard Butler.

In the event that this whole Korea thing does, erm, blow up, please don't expect help from the UK. Our entire military now consists of two squads of soldiers, a Cessna with a front mounted water pistol, and a recently repaired inflatable dinghy.
Also available on Twitter @UKSkinsFan

**LPJ**
Posts: 6377
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:12 am
Location: Langley Park, MD *Tick Tock*

Postby langleyparkjoe » Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:24 am

UK Skins Fan wrote:On a lighter note: I went to see Olympus Has Fallen last night. Complete and utter garbage of course. Timely and topical garbage with a corny Independence Day style speech at the end. I think Gerard Butler may have shown us the way in this film: just kill everybody. It seemed to work for him.

I'd like to put on record that I only went to see this film because I was bored, NOT because I base my whole life on the teachings of Gerard Butler.

In the event that this whole Korea thing does, erm, blow up, please don't expect help from the UK. Our entire military now consists of two squads of soldiers, a Cessna with a front mounted water pistol, and a recently repaired inflatable dinghy.


Whatever dude, the movie was good you American hater. :lol:
Hog Bowl I Champion (2009)
Hog Bowl II Champion 2010- Cappster
Hog Bowl III Champion 2011- DarthMonk
Hog Bowl IV Champion 2012- Deadskins
Hog Bowl V Champion 2013- DarthMonk

DC Area, I support you.. Unconditionally
When I die, remember me as one loyal S.O.B.!

Return to The Lounge