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Postby Cappster » Sat May 11, 2013 7:47 am

Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:If you go to church, what book are they going to tell you to open and read from? The...uh...oh yeah..the bible.

Nope, the Book of Common Prayer. Obviously, you don't go to church much. Funny, considering how you're such an expert on the subject. There is none so blind as he who will not see. :roll:


LOL. I have been to church many times in my life (I have a baptist background) and the bible has always been the source book for the sermon. Anglicans may use the book of common prayer with cherry picked passages, but it is still encouraged that members read the bible aka the source text. The book of common prayer is still based on biblical passages and teachings. Again, you are trying to distance yourself from the bible, but with being a self-proclaimed christian, you just cannot get away with it.
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Postby Deadskins » Sat May 11, 2013 1:13 pm

Cappster wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:If you go to church, what book are they going to tell you to open and read from? The...uh...oh yeah..the bible.

Nope, the Book of Common Prayer. Obviously, you don't go to church much. Funny, considering how you're such an expert on the subject. There is none so blind as he who will not see. :roll:


LOL. I have been to church many times in my life (I have a baptist background) and the bible has always been the source book for the sermon. Anglicans may use the book of common prayer with cherry picked passages, but it is still encouraged that members read the bible aka the source text. The book of common prayer is still based on biblical passages and teachings. Again, you are trying to distance yourself from the bible, but with being a self-proclaimed christian, you just cannot get away with it.

You said previously, the book you are asked to read from in church is the Bible. Now you are saying the sermon is based on the Bible. Duh! Even in Baptist services, the congregation is not reading from the Bible. As for the Book of Common Prayer being cherry-picked parts of the Bible, you couldn't be more wrong again. The BCP is basically a service guide that covers rituals developed as church doctrine. It really doesn't pull from the Bible other than for the Lord's Prayer and Psalms. Again, why would I want to distance myself from the Bible? Your suggestion that I'm doing so is laughable. I'm merely trying to explain to you that to cherry-pick passages (which is what you've been the one doing) to take literally, when it is obvious that the Old Testament was written by people, from stories passed doen over generations of oral history. If you really want to talk to me about Christianity and the Bible, you need to be referencing passages from the New Testament, as that is what's relavent to Christ.
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Postby SkinsJock » Mon May 13, 2013 7:48 am

Went to church yesterday - the only books 'available' were the BCP and the hymnal ...

I know that some people take the Bible to church and there are some 'available' there but the Bible is not used or needed to worship on Sundays at most Episcopalian services that I go to
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Postby Mississippiskinsfan2 » Mon May 13, 2013 10:10 am

DarthMonk wrote:BTW ... here's a link to the stuff below:

http://preposterousuniverse.com/writings/dtung/


Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:Does the Universe Need God?
If we can make it work with out him does that mean there is no god?

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

In many religious traditions, one of the standard roles of the deity has been to create the universe. The first line of the Bible, Genesis 1:1, is a plain statement of this role. Much has happened, both in our scientific understanding of the universe and in the development of theology, since that line was first written. It's worth examining what those developments imply for the relationship between God and cosmology.

In some ways of thinking about God, there's no relationship at all; a conception of divinity that is sufficiently ineffable and transcendent may be completely separate from the workings of the physical world. In addition to the role of creator, God may also be invoked as that which sustains the world and allows it to exist, or more practically as an explanation for some of the specific contingent properties of the universe we observe.

Each of these possibilities necessarily leads to an engagement with science. Modern cosmology attempts to come up with the most powerful and economical possible understanding of the universe that is consistent with observational data. It's certainly conceivable that the methods of science could lead us to a self-contained picture of the universe that doesn't involve God in any way. If so, would we be correct to conclude that cosmology has undermined the reasons for believing in God, or at least a certain kind of reason?

This is not an open-and-shut question. We are not faced with a matter of judging the merits of a mature and compelling scientific theory, since we don't yet have such a theory. Rather, we are trying to predict the future: will there ever be a time when a conventional scientific model provides a complete understanding of the origin of the universe? Or, alternatively, do we already know enough to conclude that God definitely helps us explain the universe we see, in ways that a non-theistic approach can never hope to match?

Most modern cosmologists are convinced that conventional scientific progress will ultimately result in a self-contained understanding of the origin and evolution of the universe, without the need to invoke God or any other supernatural involvement. This conviction necessarily falls short of a proof, but it is backed up by good reasons.


Thanks :up: I meant to put that in there but forgot to. I think it has to work with out God for it to work at all. And I dont think God can just do whatever he wants to do because one small thing out of place would make it fall apart. In my mind there is nothing we could find to disprove God or to prove there is a God but God himself.

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Postby Mississippiskinsfan2 » Mon May 13, 2013 1:03 pm

Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?

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Postby Cappster » Mon May 13, 2013 2:17 pm

Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:If you go to church, what book are they going to tell you to open and read from? The...uh...oh yeah..the bible.

Nope, the Book of Common Prayer. Obviously, you don't go to church much. Funny, considering how you're such an expert on the subject. There is none so blind as he who will not see. :roll:


LOL. I have been to church many times in my life (I have a baptist background) and the bible has always been the source book for the sermon. Anglicans may use the book of common prayer with cherry picked passages, but it is still encouraged that members read the bible aka the source text. The book of common prayer is still based on biblical passages and teachings. Again, you are trying to distance yourself from the bible, but with being a self-proclaimed christian, you just cannot get away with it.

You said previously, the book you are asked to read from in church is the Bible. Now you are saying the sermon is based on the Bible. Duh! Even in Baptist services, the congregation is not reading from the Bible. As for the Book of Common Prayer being cherry-picked parts of the Bible, you couldn't be more wrong again. The BCP is basically a service guide that covers rituals developed as church doctrine. It really doesn't pull from the Bible other than for the Lord's Prayer and Psalms. Again, why would I want to distance myself from the Bible? Your suggestion that I'm doing so is laughable. I'm merely trying to explain to you that to cherry-pick passages (which is what you've been the one doing) to take literally, when it is obvious that the Old Testament was written by people, from stories passed doen over generations of oral history. If you really want to talk to me about Christianity and the Bible, you need to be referencing passages from the New Testament, as that is what's relavent to Christ.


Okay, so the Episcopalian church seems to use the BCP for their church services. Where do they find the information about christ that they use for praise? Some other man made doctrine other than the bible? And I disagree about Baptist sermons not using the bible. They like to sing songs and all of that to "praise the lawd;" however, they ask people to turn to "insert part of bible here" to read along about the part they are going to deliver their sermon about. There is a collection of states in America called the "bible belt" for a reason...

When I point out passages, it is usually the ones that religious people want to gloss over or say "that is old testament so it doesn't count." I hope you realize that Yahweh, god of the old testament, resides in heaven too. You know that destructive deity that rained down merciless punishment to humans. Again, a "holy" book shouldn't be as fallible to have the old testament within its pages if it isn't meant to be taken seriously. The whole Yahweh the father and Jesus the son, all of which are the same person, reminds me of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. The god of the bible seems to be a rather schizophrenic deity.

Anyway, here is some scripture from Matthew:
Jesus wrote:“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


Hmmmm..."Does the will of his father?" Ah, silly Jesus, the old testament doesn't count! On a side note, how can a deity so loving declare something so unrighteous and cruel? Does this really sound like "love?"
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Postby Cappster » Mon May 13, 2013 2:22 pm

Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?


No. That is, unless, we have some sort of self fulfilling prophecy by members of one of the leading mythological religions that will usher mankind to its doom. Unless an asteroid hits Earth, in theory, we should be able to survive until the sun burns out in a few billion years.
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Postby SkinsJock » Mon May 13, 2013 9:19 pm

Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?


I have faith that we're going to continue to be here for some time to come :twisted:
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Postby Mississippiskinsfan2 » Tue May 14, 2013 8:59 am

Cappster wrote:
Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?


No. That is, unless, we have some sort of self fulfilling prophecy by members of one of the leading mythological religions that will usher mankind to its doom. Unless an asteroid hits Earth, in theory, we should be able to survive until the sun burns out in a few billion years.


In theory yes but you and I both know things will have to change for us to make it there. At some point money will have to be done away with because it is the biggest thing that holds us back. You seem to have some really strong feelings with religion and that seems to keep you from having peace in your life. Religion has its place in our world and we would not be where we are today with out it.Most people would not make it through the day with out it and as much wrong you can find in it you can find that much good that has come because of it. My 2 cents

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Postby Cappster » Tue May 14, 2013 11:56 am

Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:
Cappster wrote:
Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?


No. That is, unless, we have some sort of self fulfilling prophecy by members of one of the leading mythological religions that will usher mankind to its doom. Unless an asteroid hits Earth, in theory, we should be able to survive until the sun burns out in a few billion years.


In theory yes but you and I both know things will have to change for us to make it there. At some point money will have to be done away with because it is the biggest thing that holds us back. You seem to have some really strong feelings with religion and that seems to keep you from having peace in your life. Religion has its place in our world and we would not be where we are today with out it.Most people would not make it through the day with out it and as much wrong you can find in it you can find that much good that has come because of it. My 2 cents


There is no doubt about the disdain I have for religion, but to say that my life without being religious keeps me from having peace is just not true. In this forum, I am opinionated, but no one knows what I am like with friends, family, and life in general.

You say money is holding us back? I agree to an extent that greed is a detrimental contributing factor to our overall society. Do you not think that religion has done far more harm in impeding progress of mankind? The dark ages stagnated progress for centuries, people use religion to back bigoted viewpoints, some want to usher in gods return by destroying the rest of us, etc...

Secular values are much more fruitful than those found in religious texts. With me being an athiest, if I do wrong then I own it and I am held accountable for my actions. If a religious person does wrong, they put it on their god to deal with the issue. Religion is on the decline and for that I am encouraged. I am encouraged, because people are starting to question mythological writings with logic and reasoning. If there is a god, he/she/it shouldn't play these shadow games and should come out to show himself to everyone in the world in the same manner.

Think about this: Would you rather live in a society without religion or a society without science?
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Postby Mississippiskinsfan2 » Tue May 14, 2013 3:24 pm

Cappster wrote:
Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:
Cappster wrote:
Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?


No. That is, unless, we have some sort of self fulfilling prophecy by members of one of the leading mythological religions that will usher mankind to its doom. Unless an asteroid hits Earth, in theory, we should be able to survive until the sun burns out in a few billion years.


In theory yes but you and I both know things will have to change for us to make it there. At some point money will have to be done away with because it is the biggest thing that holds us back. You seem to have some really strong feelings with religion and that seems to keep you from having peace in your life. Religion has its place in our world and we would not be where we are today with out it.Most people would not make it through the day with out it and as much wrong you can find in it you can find that much good that has come because of it. My 2 cents


There is no doubt about the disdain I have for religion, but to say that my life without being religious keeps me from having peace is just not true. In this forum, I am opinionated, but no one knows what I am like with friends, family, and life in general.

You say money is holding us back? I agree to an extent that greed is a detrimental contributing factor to our overall society. Do you not think that religion has done far more harm in impeding progress of mankind? The dark ages stagnated progress for centuries, people use religion to back bigoted viewpoints, some want to usher in gods return by destroying the rest of us, etc...

Secular values are much more fruitful than those found in religious texts. With me being an athiest, if I do wrong then I own it and I am held accountable for my actions. If a religious person does wrong, they put it on their god to deal with the issue. Religion is on the decline and for that I am encouraged. I am encouraged, because people are starting to question mythological writings with logic and reasoning. If there is a god, he/she/it shouldn't play these shadow games and should come out to show himself to everyone in the world in the same manner.

Think about this: Would you rather live in a society without religion or a society without science?


Your disdain you have for religion keeps you from having peace. Understanding will bring you peace not religion. I'm not really sure why you try to disprove something that dose not exist. It is on the people who believe to prove there is a God and to disprove all the other ones.

Yes but then thats more to do with people in the religion really. Reigion has been used by many to get money and power. Many let their fear and the fact they did not understand what was really going on around get in the way. So blame the people not the religion.

Angels on the sideline,Baffled and confused.Father blessed them all with reason.And this is what they choose. If anyone does wrong they own it. It is who you are.

You cant have one without the other really. I mean religion was science back in the day.

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Postby Countertrey » Tue May 14, 2013 6:30 pm

Did so...
Did not...
Did so...
Did not...

Don't force yours on me, and I won't force mine on you.

This thread is simply tedious. Debating religion is like wrestling in mud. Somebody might win... but everyone gets dirty. Goes for the zealot... and for the activist athiest.

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Postby Cappster » Wed May 15, 2013 8:23 am

Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:
Cappster wrote:
Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:
Cappster wrote:
Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?


No. That is, unless, we have some sort of self fulfilling prophecy by members of one of the leading mythological religions that will usher mankind to its doom. Unless an asteroid hits Earth, in theory, we should be able to survive until the sun burns out in a few billion years.


In theory yes but you and I both know things will have to change for us to make it there. At some point money will have to be done away with because it is the biggest thing that holds us back. You seem to have some really strong feelings with religion and that seems to keep you from having peace in your life. Religion has its place in our world and we would not be where we are today with out it.Most people would not make it through the day with out it and as much wrong you can find in it you can find that much good that has come because of it. My 2 cents


There is no doubt about the disdain I have for religion, but to say that my life without being religious keeps me from having peace is just not true. In this forum, I am opinionated, but no one knows what I am like with friends, family, and life in general.

You say money is holding us back? I agree to an extent that greed is a detrimental contributing factor to our overall society. Do you not think that religion has done far more harm in impeding progress of mankind? The dark ages stagnated progress for centuries, people use religion to back bigoted viewpoints, some want to usher in gods return by destroying the rest of us, etc...

Secular values are much more fruitful than those found in religious texts. With me being an athiest, if I do wrong then I own it and I am held accountable for my actions. If a religious person does wrong, they put it on their god to deal with the issue. Religion is on the decline and for that I am encouraged. I am encouraged, because people are starting to question mythological writings with logic and reasoning. If there is a god, he/she/it shouldn't play these shadow games and should come out to show himself to everyone in the world in the same manner.

Think about this: Would you rather live in a society without religion or a society without science?


Your disdain you have for religion keeps you from having peace. Understanding will bring you peace not religion. I'm not really sure why you try to disprove something that dose not exist. It is on the people who believe to prove there is a God and to disprove all the other ones.

Yes but then thats more to do with people in the religion really. Reigion has been used by many to get money and power. Many let their fear and the fact they did not understand what was really going on around get in the way. So blame the people not the religion.

Angels on the sideline,Baffled and confused.Father blessed them all with reason.And this is what they choose. If anyone does wrong they own it. It is who you are.

You cant have one without the other really. I mean religion was science back in the day.


Religion was never science. God was invoked when humans didn't understand things such as earthquakes and comets. Now that we do have an understanding of such natural events, you could say that science is peeling back religion/god to the point where it is no longer useful to believe in such things.

I don't care if people practice any religion of their choice. I do mind when their bat S crazy ideas infiltrate public policy making that affects all of our lives. The main thing I want people to do is question why they believe they way they do. Blind faith without even bothering to think critically about what you are choosing to believe in is an injustice to ones self. I go through this with my girlfriend who claims to be Catholic, but more so just by title only. She doesn't really believe in biblical fairy tales, but doesn't want to separate herself from the indoctrination from her youth and the social impact it would have if she renounced her Catholicism. So turns a blind eye and forces herself to believe in make believe.
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Postby langleyparkjoe » Wed May 15, 2013 8:28 am

My church still uses the bible.. the old version with thou and thus and shalt. :lol:
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Postby SkinsJock » Thu May 16, 2013 3:49 pm

I'm not sure why anyone should feel that they are 'indoctrinated' just by attending church services with their families and loved ones ..

I don't feel a need to 'justify' anything - I just feel a need to give thanks for all the blessings of a family that now includes grandchildren ...

why all the anger and frustration - just being alive is truly a blessing ....


I'm certainly not going to give any credence to 'science' for that :twisted:
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