tribeofjudah's Bible study

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Postby Deadskins » Fri May 17, 2013 5:31 pm

Cappster wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:If you go to church, what book are they going to tell you to open and read from? The...uh...oh yeah..the bible.

Nope, the Book of Common Prayer. Obviously, you don't go to church much. Funny, considering how you're such an expert on the subject. There is none so blind as he who will not see. :roll:


LOL. I have been to church many times in my life (I have a baptist background) and the bible has always been the source book for the sermon. Anglicans may use the book of common prayer with cherry picked passages, but it is still encouraged that members read the bible aka the source text. The book of common prayer is still based on biblical passages and teachings. Again, you are trying to distance yourself from the bible, but with being a self-proclaimed christian, you just cannot get away with it.

You said previously, the book you are asked to read from in church is the Bible. Now you are saying the sermon is based on the Bible. Duh! Even in Baptist services, the congregation is not reading from the Bible. As for the Book of Common Prayer being cherry-picked parts of the Bible, you couldn't be more wrong again. The BCP is basically a service guide that covers rituals developed as church doctrine. It really doesn't pull from the Bible other than for the Lord's Prayer and Psalms. Again, why would I want to distance myself from the Bible? Your suggestion that I'm doing so is laughable. I'm merely trying to explain to you that to cherry-pick passages (which is what you've been the one doing) to take literally, when it is obvious that the Old Testament was written by people, from stories passed doen over generations of oral history. If you really want to talk to me about Christianity and the Bible, you need to be referencing passages from the New Testament, as that is what's relavent to Christ.


Okay, so the Episcopalian church seems to use the BCP for their church services. Where do they find the information about christ that they use for praise? Some other man made doctrine other than the bible? And I disagree about Baptist sermons not using the bible. They like to sing songs and all of that to "praise the lawd;" however, they ask people to turn to "insert part of bible here" to read along about the part they are going to deliver their sermon about. There is a collection of states in America called the "bible belt" for a reason...

When I point out passages, it is usually the ones that religious people want to gloss over or say "that is old testament so it doesn't count." I hope you realize that Yahweh, god of the old testament, resides in heaven too. You know that destructive deity that rained down merciless punishment to humans. Again, a "holy" book shouldn't be as fallible to have the old testament within its pages if it isn't meant to be taken seriously. The whole Yahweh the father and Jesus the son, all of which are the same person, reminds me of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. The god of the bible seems to be a rather schizophrenic deity.

Anyway, here is some scripture from Matthew:
Jesus wrote:“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


Hmmmm..."Does the will of his father?" Ah, silly Jesus, the old testament doesn't count! On a side note, how can a deity so loving declare something so unrighteous and cruel? Does this really sound like "love?"

Can you read? I never said the Old Testament didn't count. I said The Old Testament was written hundreds of years before the New, from stories passed down over thousands of years by oral history, and as such needs to be read with that in mind. You can't take those passages literally the way you are, to try and force some deep-seated anger you harbor, onto God. You brougth up stoning people as a punishment for sinning, but Jesus said, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

I also agreed (not disagreed) with you about sermons being based on Bible passages (usually the day's Gospel passage), so I have no idea what point you think you're making there.

As for the BCP, the rites contained within are not biblical, but constructed by the early church councils, such as the Council of Nicea, from with came the Nicean Creed. This was where the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was established, so that worshipping Jesus did not fly in the face of the first two commandments.

Come back to me when you have something new to offer..
Last edited by Deadskins on Fri May 17, 2013 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Deadskins » Fri May 17, 2013 5:54 pm

Cappster wrote:If a religious person does wrong, they put it on their god to deal with the issue.

Say what? :hmm:

Cappster wrote:Think about this: Would you rather live in a society without religion or a society without science?

Why can't we have both?

By the way, religion is not responsible for the dark ages or the repression of scienctific discovery, or any of the other attrocities done over the years in the name of God. We've been over this before. If people followed the Ten Commandments to the letter, then those attrocities would have never occured. Just because someone calls themselves a Christian, doesn't make them one. It's actions that count.
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Postby Deadskins » Fri May 17, 2013 6:00 pm

Cappster wrote:The main thing I want people to do is question why they believe they way they do.

Check out a mirror some day. I don't think you know what you believe. I tried to help you answer some of these questions you have a couple of pages ago with the whole "spirit energies" discussion, but you got upset when you couldn't reconcile your beliefs with the front you are trying to put up.
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Postby Deadskins » Fri May 17, 2013 6:04 pm

Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?

That depnds. What do you mean by end times? The second coming?
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Postby tribeofjudah » Fri May 17, 2013 11:34 pm

Deadskins wrote:
Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?

That depnds. What do you mean by end times? The second coming?


It is near, my Friends..........even at the door.

Signs of the time are Everywhere...
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Postby Deadskins » Sat May 18, 2013 12:38 am

tribeofjudah wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?

That depnds. What do you mean by end times? The second coming?


It is near, my Friends..........even at the door.

Signs of the time are Everywhere...

Maybe, but that is not the end of times. That event will just usher in an age of peace. But, at least Cappster will have had his overt sign of God's existence. :shock:
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Postby Cappster » Sat May 18, 2013 12:30 pm

Deadskins wrote:Can you read? I never said the Old Testament didn't count. I said The Old Testament was written hundreds of years before the New, from stories passed down over thousands of years by oral history, and as such needs to be read with that in mind. You can't take those passages literally the way you are, to try and force some deep-seated anger you harbor, onto God. You brougth up stoning people as a punishment for sinning, but Jesus said, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

I also agreed (not disagreed) with you about sermons being based on Bible passages (usually the day's Gospel passage), so I have no idea what point you think you're making there.

As for the BCP, the rites contained within are not biblical, but constructed by the early church councils, such as the Council of Nicea, from with came the Nicean Creed. This was where the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was established, so that worshipping Jesus did not fly in the face of the first two commandments.

Come back to me when you have something new to offer..


The way you are describing the old testament is basically of that of being dismissive. Jesus has a different point of view.

Jesus said wrote:Matthew 5:17-18

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.


And you are pretty much showing that the BCP is more man made doctrine that is made up to try not to conflict with teachings of the old laws. You are a christian apologist who keeps making up excuses for why the church, bible, and over all the religion of chrisitanity is so effed up.
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Postby Cappster » Sat May 18, 2013 12:41 pm

Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:If a religious person does wrong, they put it on their god to deal with the issue.

Say what? :hmm:

Cappster wrote:Think about this: Would you rather live in a society without religion or a society without science?

Why can't we have both?

By the way, religion is not responsible for the dark ages or the repression of scienctific discovery, or any of the other attrocities done over the years in the name of God. We've been over this before. If people followed the Ten Commandments to the letter, then those attrocities would have never occured. Just because someone calls themselves a Christian, doesn't make them one. It's actions that count.


Have you never heard of someone saying that they will "put it to god to deal with?" After all, god is supposedly looking out for all of his believers and he can either bless you or taketh away.

Religion impedes the progress of science and to say that it does not shows the naivety that you have for the situation. And to say that religion had nothing to with the dark ages is, wow, when a person denies reality then there isn't much hope for them to understand said reality. I guess things like slavery, manifest destiny, and people flying airplanes into buildings had nothing to do with religion :roll:

Ten Commandments? Isn't that from the old testament (exodus) of which is not supposed to be taken literally? Hmm, it's pretty hard to defend contradictions with contradictions unless you are just trying to confuse a somebody. And I don't se the Tn Commandments speaking out about slavery, war, crimes against children, etc...
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Postby Cappster » Sat May 18, 2013 12:53 pm

Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:The main thing I want people to do is question why they believe they way they do.

Check out a mirror some day. I don't think you know what you believe. I tried to help you answer some of these questions you have a couple of pages ago with the whole "spirit energies" discussion, but you got upset when you couldn't reconcile your beliefs with the front you are trying to put up.


Why do you think I am an Atheist? Could it be perhaps that I used to be on the other team trying to defend the abhorrent texts found within the bible? It was a slow evolutionary process, but I was able to free myself of the illogical thinking that is associated with religion. I could no longer deny logical reasoning in lieu of contradictory teachings I was taught growing up. As far as spirits/ghosts are concerned, I think it is plausible based on my experiences. Do I claim it as truth? No, I do not. Does that mean there is evidence of a god existing? No, not in the slightest.

If there is "evidence" for god, it should not contradict itself. I can look at the theory of evolution and see every piece of the puzzle fit together. I can look at religion find that the puzzle doesn't fit and is illogical at best.

This is a pretty funny cartoon about biblical contradictions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk
Last edited by Cappster on Sat May 18, 2013 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Cappster » Sat May 18, 2013 12:55 pm

Deadskins wrote:
tribeofjudah wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?

That depnds. What do you mean by end times? The second coming?


It is near, my Friends..........even at the door.

Signs of the time are Everywhere...

Maybe, but that is not the end of times. That event will just usher in an age of peace. But, at least Cappster will have had his overt sign of God's existence. :shock:


The "end times" have always been close. It just depends on the kook who is making the claim.
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Postby Countertrey » Sat May 18, 2013 2:39 pm

Cappster wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
tribeofjudah wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?

That depnds. What do you mean by end times? The second coming?


It is near, my Friends..........even at the door.

Signs of the time are Everywhere...

Maybe, but that is not the end of times. That event will just usher in an age of peace. But, at least Cappster will have had his overt sign of God's existence. :shock:


The "end times" have always been close. It just depends on the kook who is making the claim.
... and, of course, the law of averages says, some day, one of those kooks will be right.
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Postby 1niksder » Sat May 18, 2013 4:04 pm

Countertrey wrote:
Cappster wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
tribeofjudah wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Mississippiskinsfan2 wrote:Do any of you think we are in the end of times? And why?

That depnds. What do you mean by end times? The second coming?


It is near, my Friends..........even at the door.

Signs of the time are Everywhere...

Maybe, but that is not the end of times. That event will just usher in an age of peace. But, at least Cappster will have had his overt sign of God's existence. :shock:


The "end times" have always been close. It just depends on the kook who is making the claim.
... and, of course, the law of averages says, some day, one of those kooks will be right.

In the end... :wink:
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Postby HTTRRG3ALMO » Sun May 19, 2013 4:24 pm

Cappster wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:The main thing I want people to do is question why they believe they way they do.

Check out a mirror some day. I don't think you know what you believe. I tried to help you answer some of these questions you have a couple of pages ago with the whole "spirit energies" discussion, but you got upset when you couldn't reconcile your beliefs with the front you are trying to put up.


Why do you think I am an Atheist? Could it be perhaps that I used to be on the other team trying to defend the abhorrent texts found within the bible? It was a slow evolutionary process, but I was able to free myself of the illogical thinking that is associated with religion. I could no longer deny logical reasoning in lieu of contradictory teachings I was taught growing up. As far as spirits/ghosts are concerned, I think it is plausible based on my experiences. Do I claim it as truth? No, I do not. Does that mean there is evidence of a god existing? No, not in the slightest.

If there is "evidence" for god, it should not contradict itself. I can look at the theory of evolution and see every piece of the puzzle fit together. I can look at religion find that the puzzle doesn't fit and is illogical at best.

This is a pretty funny cartoon about biblical contradictions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk


Hey Cappster sorry I haven't been on this thread in a couple weeks...this one is harder to keep up with than other threads.

Secondly, I apologize for how obnoxiously long this is. Please be patient with me.

What's really going on here? Why the demand (so to speak) for an explanation or for Christians (or perhaps just theists) to recant their believe in God?

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting your posts (always hard to get "tone" out of text), but you seem to have a lot of anger and hostility towards the issue. No one has been served a subpoena to defend their belief system (talking about both sides of the discussion).

Both sides have asked each other, essentially, for the reason of our "faith". Everyone, including you, answered with absolute honesty.

When a clearly worded reason isn't enough, there's usually something else going on under the surface.

Let me use myself as a terrible example here...

When I see the articles/posts about "Redskins Name Change" I get really defensive. I feel defensive because, to me, its threatening something I care about (it is "offensive" in a way that makes me feel I need to protect myself).

This is painful to write, but the reason I feel this "tension" inside is because part of me believes there's some truth to their argument. I need to apologize here...I can only handle using the word "some" for now; this is something that is "threatening" a team I have loved since childhood...

Sure, there's documented history of the name "Redskins" describing war paint, but I feel threatened because I also know its a racial slur (though I wish it were never used in such manner).

So naturally, my desire is to hold onto that which "protects" me from loosing something.

Back to the original topic...

You do not believe in the things that have changed my life; things I hold near and dear to my heart. I respect your right to do so, and you don't owe me an explanation (though I'm grateful you gave me one).

Whenever I hear someone making a case against God, I don't feel defensive or threatened, there's no reason for me to.

Christ changed things in my heart that I struggled with for years. Am I perfect? Hell no man, LOL, but...I have peace, and am willing to keep getting back up when I fall. Why? Because I'm in love man; I love Jesus Christ.

Having the belief system of a Christian is like being rescued from a burning house. You turn around, seeing what you were just saved from, and there's an overwhelming sense of gratitude and peace. You're not the same person anymore, and the change happened that quickly.

However, you soon realize there are people still inside of that house. You remember what it was like to be in there, so you desperately want to "save" them.

You feel compassionate, but sometimes you can get too pushy; after all, the other person has to: 1. realize the house is on fire, and 2. want to get out.

Just ask a lifeguard what its like to rescue someone who doesn't want to be rescued...you're both going down (sorry for the change of imagery).

Its really painful man, when you see someone saying "there is no burning house." You can't force them to see what you see, but you do your best to explain it, and there comes a point to where you realize this person isn't going to change their mind. So you just stand there, practically hopeless, waiting for them to signal for help.

In other words, you have to respect their right to stay there. Worst feeling in the world man.

I don't believe the same can be said for an unbeliever. With the exception of extremists, what harm is there with theists besides an occasional "argument"? Why not just respect their right to believe as they wish, unless there's something going on within your heart that's keeping you from letting it go; just as there's something in my heart keeping me from letting go of my defensiveness against the Redskins name change issue.

This may seem hypocritical; it doesn't make sense for an atheist to argue with a theist - not visa versa, but remember what I said about the burning building. From the world's prospective, there's no danger in being a theist; society and science is progressing just fine.

In other words, people "debate" to sway an audience (or the "opposing" debater) to change their opinion. After all, if that weren't the case why keep talking after both sides understand each other? I already explained why its difficult and painful for Christians to "walk away".

I have no idea where you stand in that matter, and I wouldn't dare assume I understand the depths of your heart.

Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful you come here to share your mind and I hope you continue to do so.

You can easily say I'm narrow-minded for thinking I "know" the way. I'll accept that label because I do believe that; for if I had a single doubt in my mind, I wouldn't truly "believe" in my faith, would I? And if I truly believe in Jesus Christ and he's truly given me peace, how couldn't I wish that for you?

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Postby DarthMonk » Sun May 19, 2013 7:36 pm

^^^

This all makes sense ... and an atheist/scientist can feel the same way "in reverse" without any hostility. They can feel saved from the burning building of "mysticism" by science and then want to see others "saved" in the same way.
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Postby HTTRRG3ALMO » Sun May 19, 2013 10:20 pm

DarthMonk wrote:^^^

This all makes sense ... and an atheist/scientist can feel the same way "in reverse" without any hostility. They can feel saved from the burning building of "mysticism" by science and then want to see others "saved" in the same way.


Hey Darth - I'll stand corrected on that. I was a bit blind to that fact but this makes sense to me as well.

Thanks for pointing it out to me.

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