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Postby Deadskins » Mon May 20, 2013 6:27 am

Cappster wrote:
Deadskins wrote:Can you read? I never said the Old Testament didn't count. I said The Old Testament was written hundreds of years before the New, from stories passed down over thousands of years by oral history, and as such needs to be read with that in mind. You can't take those passages literally the way you are, to try and force some deep-seated anger you harbor, onto God. You brougth up stoning people as a punishment for sinning, but Jesus said, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

I also agreed (not disagreed) with you about sermons being based on Bible passages (usually the day's Gospel passage), so I have no idea what point you think you're making there.

As for the BCP, the rites contained within are not biblical, but constructed by the early church councils, such as the Council of Nicea, from with came the Nicean Creed. This was where the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was established, so that worshipping Jesus did not fly in the face of the first two commandments.

Come back to me when you have something new to offer..


The way you are describing the old testament is basically of that of being dismissive.

See, this is where you are missing my point, altogether. I'm not dismissive of the Old Testament at all. I'm just saying you have to read it with context.

Cappster wrote:Jesus has a different point of view.

Jesus said wrote:Matthew 5:17-18

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Again, Jesus is saying the exact same thing I'm telling you. The Law remains the same. He came to fulfill the Law (and to explain it to those who misunderstand). The Commandments state that all the Law and the prophets hang on the single truth that God is.


Cappster wrote:And you are pretty much showing that the BCP is more man made doctrine that is made up to try not to conflict with teachings of the old laws. You are a christian apologist who keeps making up excuses for why the church, bible, and over all the religion of chrisitanity is so effed up.

I've been saying all along that the BCP is man made doctrine. Why are you still trying to argue that? Where you are wrong is that I never said it was made up to try and not conflict with the old laws. I was simply explaining it's origins. Early on, the Church needed to reconcile the fact that they were worshipping Jesus, and the way they did that was come to the conclusion that God was made up of three parts (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). They also made up the the rite of Communion, to fulfill Jesus's request at the Last Supper, that when people ate and drank, that they give thanks to God, in rememberance of Him.

Where have I ever apologized for Christianity, or made any excuses? If anything, I've condemned those that would use Christianity, (or Judaism, in the case of the Old Testament) as an excuse to do those despicable acts you keep throwing out as examples. You need to understand the difference between Religion and people who follow religions. Just because someone claims to be following a certain religion, doesn't make it so. There have been many horrible crimes committed over the centuries in the name of Christianity. That doesn't mean those crimes were Christian acts. Can you see the difference?
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Postby Deadskins » Mon May 20, 2013 7:00 am

Cappster wrote:If there is "evidence" for god, it should not contradict itself. I can look at the theory of evolution and see every piece of the puzzle fit together. I can look at religion find that the puzzle doesn't fit and is illogical at best.

First, let me say that I don't see the mutual exclusivity you do between science and religion. I consider myself to be a man of science and a man of faith. Second, there are plenty of contradictions in science. If you didn't know that, then you really don't know anything about science at all. That's why scientists propose theories. As they make observations of contradictions, they propose a theory to best explain these observations. Just as in science, religion is not set set in stone, as you (and many others) seem to believe. It is a journey of discovery. Not everything is black and white. :idea:
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Postby langleyparkjoe » Mon May 20, 2013 7:40 am

blah blah blah..
here's my issue.

    lil girl gets beaten, raped, murdered.. dies.
    lil wayne gets hammered off multiple heavy drugs, goes to hospital.. lives.


God has the last word, we are not to question it.
Growing up i'm told to question everything.

I understand what everyone is saying but forget about all that for a moment. Just use the example I gave above about the girl and lil wayne.. now tell me about God as if I never read a bible in my life. Please. Anyone. And remember, use the examples I gave please.

Cappo.. you too are more than welcomed to answer bro, all opinions are valid, no one is WRONG because how the flip would we know?
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Postby Deadskins » Mon May 20, 2013 9:18 am

If you want me to explain why one dies and one lives, I can't. I don't claim to understand, any more than I claim to understand how light can act as both a particle and a wave. I do believe that God has a plan, though I don't necessarily believe that He controls every aspect of the world down to the smallest detail. Sorry if that answer is unsatisfactory, but it is what it is.
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Postby DarthMonk » Mon May 20, 2013 9:53 am

I feel the same way about your post. It's easy for me to sound extremely pompous on a message board.

Thanks.

HTTRRG3ALMO wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:^^^

This all makes sense ... and an atheist/scientist can feel the same way "in reverse" without any hostility. They can feel saved from the burning building of "mysticism" by science and then want to see others "saved" in the same way.


Hey Darth - I'll stand corrected on that. I was a bit blind to that fact but this makes sense to me as well.

Thanks for pointing it out to me.
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Postby Mississippiskinsfan2 » Mon May 20, 2013 11:59 am

langleyparkjoe wrote:blah blah blah..
here's my issue.

    lil girl gets beaten, raped, murdered.. dies.
    lil wayne gets hammered off multiple heavy drugs, goes to hospital.. lives.

God has the last word, we are not to question it.
Growing up i'm told to question everything.

I understand what everyone is saying but forget about all that for a moment. Just use the example I gave above about the girl and lil wayne.. now tell me about God as if I never read a bible in my life. Please. Anyone. And remember, use the examples I gave please.

Cappo.. you too are more than welcomed to answer bro, all opinions are valid, no one is WRONG because how the flip would we know?


God didnt kill the girl a man did. God didnt save lil wayne from death a man did ( or woman) God blessed us all with reason and this is what we choose not him.

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Postby Cappster » Mon May 20, 2013 1:27 pm

Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:
Deadskins wrote:Can you read? I never said the Old Testament didn't count. I said The Old Testament was written hundreds of years before the New, from stories passed down over thousands of years by oral history, and as such needs to be read with that in mind. You can't take those passages literally the way you are, to try and force some deep-seated anger you harbor, onto God. You brougth up stoning people as a punishment for sinning, but Jesus said, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

I also agreed (not disagreed) with you about sermons being based on Bible passages (usually the day's Gospel passage), so I have no idea what point you think you're making there.

As for the BCP, the rites contained within are not biblical, but constructed by the early church councils, such as the Council of Nicea, from with came the Nicean Creed. This was where the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was established, so that worshipping Jesus did not fly in the face of the first two commandments.

Come back to me when you have something new to offer..


The way you are describing the old testament is basically of that of being dismissive.

See, this is where you are missing my point, altogether. I'm not dismissive of the Old Testament at all. I'm just saying you have to read it with context.

Cappster wrote:Jesus has a different point of view.

Jesus said wrote:Matthew 5:17-18

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Again, Jesus is saying the exact same thing I'm telling you. The Law remains the same. He came to fulfill the Law (and to explain it to those who misunderstand). The Commandments state that all the Law and the prophets hang on the single truth that God is.


Cappster wrote:And you are pretty much showing that the BCP is more man made doctrine that is made up to try not to conflict with teachings of the old laws. You are a christian apologist who keeps making up excuses for why the church, bible, and over all the religion of chrisitanity is so effed up.

I've been saying all along that the BCP is man made doctrine. Why are you still trying to argue that? Where you are wrong is that I never said it was made up to try and not conflict with the old laws. I was simply explaining it's origins. Early on, the Church needed to reconcile the fact that they were worshipping Jesus, and the way they did that was come to the conclusion that God was made up of three parts (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). They also made up the the rite of Communion, to fulfill Jesus's request at the Last Supper, that when people ate and drank, that they give thanks to God, in rememberance of Him.

Where have I ever apologized for Christianity, or made any excuses? If anything, I've condemned those that would use Christianity, (or Judaism, in the case of the Old Testament) as an excuse to do those despicable acts you keep throwing out as examples. You need to understand the difference between Religion and people who follow religions. Just because someone claims to be following a certain religion, doesn't make it so. There have been many horrible crimes committed over the centuries in the name of Christianity. That doesn't mean those crimes were Christian acts. Can you see the difference?


As long as people feel like they have god on their side, they are capable of the most atrocious acts imaginable. If they have to amend the rules of their belief system, they will do so in order to feel justified in the way they act. Take King Henry the 8th as an example. He wanted to get divorced (he was Roman Catholic) and the pope said no. What does he do? He establishes the church of England and separates himself from Catholicism...well, the parts that he didn't like anyway.

If there is so much stuff that is made up in regards to religion, is it really illogical to think that all of it has been made up? There is no quantifiable evidence that suggests there is a god and if there were, I think it should clear its name without having humans distort every last piece of scripture.
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Postby Cappster » Mon May 20, 2013 1:37 pm

Deadskins wrote:
Cappster wrote:If there is "evidence" for god, it should not contradict itself. I can look at the theory of evolution and see every piece of the puzzle fit together. I can look at religion find that the puzzle doesn't fit and is illogical at best.

First, let me say that I don't see the mutual exclusivity you do between science and religion. I consider myself to be a man of science and a man of faith. Second, there are plenty of contradictions in science. If you didn't know that, then you really don't know anything about science at all. That's why scientists propose theories. As they make observations of contradictions, they propose a theory to best explain these observations. Just as in science, religion is not set set in stone, as you (and many others) seem to believe. It is a journey of discovery. Not everything is black and white. :idea:


In science, if someone presents solid evidence that contradicts an established scientific principle, the old way is thrown out and replaced by the new theory. They don't keep on believing the same old nonsense, because it is old and traditional or for the fact that don't want to believe the new evidence. And I was talking about the consensus, in the scientific community, that evolution is, indeed fact and has withstood for quite a long time now without anyway being able to refute the theory.

Religion states that it knows "the truth, the way, and the light." It's just that when science comes along and presents evidence that contradicts the prophecies, religion has to amend what they teach to make it look like what they originally claimed to still be true.
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Postby Cappster » Mon May 20, 2013 1:46 pm

langleyparkjoe wrote:blah blah blah..
here's my issue.

    lil girl gets beaten, raped, murdered.. dies.
    lil wayne gets hammered off multiple heavy drugs, goes to hospital.. lives.

God has the last word, we are not to question it.
Growing up i'm told to question everything.

I understand what everyone is saying but forget about all that for a moment. Just use the example I gave above about the girl and lil wayne.. now tell me about God as if I never read a bible in my life. Please. Anyone. And remember, use the examples I gave please.

Cappo.. you too are more than welcomed to answer bro, all opinions are valid, no one is WRONG because how the flip would we know?


I've got the answer: God is mysterious! Ahahahahaaaa

Assuming that god exists and is an omnipotent and omniscient being, I would say that god probably loves lil Wayne a little more than that innocent little girl who died a horrific death. See, this is where the apologists come in and truly do say that god is mysterious and he has a plan or her reward is in heaven, blah blah blah. If you had never heard of god and someone came to you, as an adult, speaking about the wonders of the sky deity, you would probably think they were crazy. I mean, imagine if someone came up to you claiming how awesome the flying spaghetti monster is and all the wonders that little meaty and delicious flying pasta has done in their life. Maybe if someone invented the FSM two thousand years ago, we all would be walking around wearing spaghetti strainers on our heads.
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Postby Cappster » Mon May 20, 2013 1:59 pm

HTTRRG3ALMO wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:^^^

This all makes sense ... and an atheist/scientist can feel the same way "in reverse" without any hostility. They can feel saved from the burning building of "mysticism" by science and then want to see others "saved" in the same way.


Hey Darth - I'll stand corrected on that. I was a bit blind to that fact but this makes sense to me as well.

Thanks for pointing it out to me.


If it is what helps you make it through the day I am glad you find comfort in Jesus. The problem I have most is when religion tries to exert its influence over politics or people use it to justify otherwise unjustifiable actions. I see it way too often in that people want to use the bible to justify their stance against something like equal marriage. They state "If we allow gays to get married god will punish our nation blah blah blah." To me, that is just an excuse for a person to exercise bigoted behavior. I mean, if I were speaking out against religion a few hundred years ago, I would be facing being burned at the stake or being beheaded. Religion is not this G rated screening as the words that lie in the ancient texts of the major religions consist of R and X rated material.
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Postby SkinsJock » Mon May 20, 2013 4:38 pm

there is no way that anyone can reason with someone who refuses to look at anything except from his own point of view

and

there is no way to reason or debate anyone who continues to use any and all acts that ONLY suit his point of view and not look for those that do not
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Postby Deadskins » Mon May 20, 2013 5:52 pm

SkinsJock wrote:there is no way that anyone can reason with someone who refuses to look at anything except from his own point of view

and

there is no way to reason or debate anyone who continues to use any and all acts that ONLY suit his point of view and not look for those that do not

+1
I'm through here.
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Postby Cappster » Tue May 21, 2013 8:03 am

I am not sure how I refused to look at anything other than my point of view? I've been on both sides of the argument as I used to be a Christian and now I am not. I am sorry if I do not recognize faith based arguments as actual evidence, because I use actual evidence as well as logic and reasoning to argue my point. If that is unacceptable to you then it is probably in your best interest not to respond and keep moving on.
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Postby Deadskins » Tue May 21, 2013 10:00 am

Cappster wrote:I am not sure how I refused to look at anything other than my point of view? I've been on both sides of the argument as I used to be a Christian and now I am not. I am sorry if I do not recognize faith based arguments as actual evidence, because I use actual evidence as well as logic and reasoning to argue my point. If that is unacceptable to you then it is probably in your best interest not to respond and keep moving on.

Please! You haven't produced any evidence, nor used logic, at all. And your reasoning on the topic is specious and contrived. You're not interested in a civil conversation about faith. You are only looking to ridicule those that would engage you in a discussion about the subject of God's existence. Your posts in this thread remind me of "the Poster's" contributions in HogWash.
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Postby Cappster » Tue May 21, 2013 12:03 pm

^^^^^^ Evidence of how a religious person acts when questioning his or her faith. Try to marginalize the other person to help invalidate that persons argument instead of actually refuting said persons argument.
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