Trade Cousins

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Postby riggofan » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:05 am

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
riggofan wrote:I still kind of agree with Deadskins that Cousins' best interests are not a high priority of the team. If the Skins receive two trade offers next year, say, a 3d round pick from Denver or a 2d round pick from Cleveland, they're not going to base their decision on what's in the best interests of Kirk Cousins.


How is that agreeing with deadskins? Nothing you said contradicts my argument at all in any way.

We spend two more years developing a 4th round pick with so so physical skills but who's had a good head on his shoulders so far. Then we trade him so we gets picks and he gets a chance to start.

That's win-win for him and us. The coaches are talking him up, getting him to focus on developing his skills and being ready when needed and providing him with a stage (pre-season, mop up, subbing if needed) to hone his skills and show other teams what he has.

We are actively aligning his interests with ours. That is exactly my point. Deadskins says we just sit back and if and only if we give a rats behind because it's in our selfish interests, we'll do the minimum to help him because we don't care otherwise.


I don't know man. I can see that preparing Cousins to be our backup QB happens to be a benefit to him. I'm just not sure that is proof that the Redskins or any other NFL team actively do anything more than what is best for their own interests.

If it fits the definition of "actively aligning interests" then I'll take your word for it! :)

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Postby Deadskins » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:11 am

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Deadskins wrote:
riggofan wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:The NFL is exactly like a normal business. You have to understand the dynamics of any business to succeed. Good business practices are agnostic. You're talking to a guy who spent half my career in GE rotating through businesses (GE Information Services, Nuclear, Power Systems, Capital and Consumer Finance) and the other half in management consulting in a plethora of industries before owning three businesses in three different industries.


The NFL is like a normal business??? That's weird. I won't be drafting any of my employees from colleges next April with precedence based on how my business fared last year. :)

Seriously I get your point about taking care of employees. But I still kind of agree with Deadskins that Cousins' best interests are not a high priority of the team. If the Skins receive two trade offers next year, say, a 3d round pick from Denver or a 2d round pick from Cleveland, they're not going to base their decision on what's in the best interests of Kirk Cousins.

The NFL is a business, but its also a game. With rules that don't have anything to do with other businesses like GE.

Obviously, but Kazoo won't miss any opportunity to give you his resume and let you know he is a business management expert who understands how things work better than anyone else. Nevermind that he totally backed up my point with his example of not firing the incompetent team member (maybe he should have been the one fired lol). Hyperbole is lost on him, hence his literal reaction to my Herschel Walker example.


And this started because you never pass a chance for some liberal corporate bashing. I don't miss a chance to talk about my resume when it's pertinent to the discussion. I've worked in a lot of industries. But hey, you don't know what you're talking about, so deflection is the next strategy.

The Skins obviously do know what they are doing. Snyder hired the right people and are listening to them. Cousins has a good attitude, is saying the right things, and is listening to them. All the empirical data as well as the experience in the discussion says you are wrong. The Skins are doing exactly what I said and they are aligning their interests with his.

Sorry the facts don't fit your capitalism hating bias, but they never do, you should be used to it.

Yeah, I hate capitalism. You figured it out. Never mind that I've worked exclusively for Fortune 500 corporations my entire career. You have no clue about my work experience, because, unlike you, I'm not compelled to narcissistically spout off about it in every thread I post in. :roll:

Yes, The Danny, another corporate genius like yourself, has now hired a competent front office, but before he did that he had already made himself a billionaire with Snyder Communications and then built the Redskins into one of the two most profitable teams in the NFL, while driving the team into the ground. Just because you're successful at business, doesn't necessarily mean you understand how to manage employees' interests effectively.
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Postby fredp45 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:39 am

In the end, this isn't about Cousins' feelings...this is about making the Skins better. If we can trade him to the worst team (and the team Cousins hates the most for whatever reason, e.g., horrible OL, no weapons) for the most picks or players, we'll do that regardless of how he feels. We'll keep him as long as WE NEED him, or think he helps us win games.

kazoo -- I managed a lot of people in my career, and you said -- "When I told the rest of my staff, they literally said they wondered why it took so long. "

I've had that happen but I've also had the experience where the peers of the "bad" (now fired) employee wanted him fired, made it very clear to me, others, etc...UNTIL, I fired them, then they turned on me, felt sorry for the "bad" -- now fired employee -- and I was the bad management official! How could I do that to him/her? blah, blah, blah,

You're right, if you have an employee or player and they aren't performing -- they're gone, or should be moved to where they can make a difference, or gone. There are so many examples of players cut by the team they gave 10-15 years of their lives...the NFL is absolutely no different than a business. Business doesn't get employees through a draft but they do interview, check references, etc... Not having a "draft" doesn't make it any different, both are about making money and if Fletch couldn't do it this year, he'd be gone.

What exactly are folks disagreeing with on this thread? Are folks bored (ready for the season?) and arguing about nothing??

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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:48 am

fredp45 wrote:kazoo -- I managed a lot of people in my career, and you said -- "When I told the rest of my staff, they literally said they wondered why it took so long. "

I've had that happen but I've also had the experience where the peers of the "bad" (now fired) employee wanted him fired, made it very clear to me, others, etc...UNTIL, I fired them, then they turned on me, felt sorry for the "bad" -- now fired employee -- and I was the bad management official! How could I do that to him/her? blah, blah, blah,


Tell me if I'm wrong, but I'd guess based on my own experience that the first scenario, like mine, was universal, everyone understood. The second, where some turned on you, that was a limited number of people. Others either agreed with you actively or quietly so they aren't in the middle of you and the malcontents.

I agree that does happen if that's correct, I've never had more than one or two people object. My experience generally has been that they are not the best performers either and are threatened.
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:55 am

riggofan wrote:I don't know man. I can see that preparing Cousins to be our backup QB happens to be a benefit to him. I'm just not sure that is proof that the Redskins or any other NFL team actively do anything more than what is best for their own interests.

If it fits the definition of "actively aligning interests" then I'll take your word for it! :)


Look at it this way. Ignore the people involved, who do you want for a backup? Well, a long term, reliable, affordable, good attitude, decent quarterback is what would occur to most people.

Well, we hit the fourth round and Cousins, we had rated higher is available. We take him. We play him in the pre-season, we seem to be right. RG3 goes down and he steps in and finishes a game and starts another and does great.

Unless things change, he's not going to sign a contract after his rookie contract to at least give a shot to starting. So what do we do? We embrace the situation. We develop a three year plan to have a quality backup. We want him to have a good attitude, so we work the plan with him to set him up so he knows three years and he's going to get a shot with a team to start. And then he can not sign a contract with them if he doesn't like it there and be free to sign anywhere.

We clearly ... actively ... aligned our interests with his. We're talking about this on a freaking message board. You seriously don't think management was smart enough or aware enough to recognize the situation and make it work? It just fell in their laps?

And why exactly do you think you care about people, but being managers means we don't care about our own people as people? My entire career says you are wrong, we do. Sure there are some jerks. But most managers care about their people and make it work. They don't just hope it does.

I'm glad there are bad ones too, that's why they hired me to consult...
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:59 am

Deadskins wrote:Just because you're successful at business, doesn't necessarily mean you understand how to manage employees' interests effectively.


ROTFALMAO

Yeah, it means EXACTLY that. As I said, management, staff and customers, none succeed without the other two. Sad you didn't learn that working for Fortune 500 companies for your career.

I worked for a lot of people like Danny too who suck at what they do, and they hired people like me to do it for them. Like Danny did.

And you continue to ignore that ... it's ... working ... Everything Cousins is doing and saying is positive. The idea that's an accident is just naive.
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Postby Deadskins » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:26 am

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Deadskins wrote:Just because you're successful at business, doesn't necessarily mean you understand how to manage employees' interests effectively.


ROTFALMAO

Yeah, it means EXACTLY that. As I said, management, staff and customers, none succeed without the other two. Sad you didn't learn that working for Fortune 500 companies for your career.

I worked for a lot of people like Danny too who suck at what they do, and they hired people like me to do it for them. Like Danny did.

And you continue to ignore that ... it's ... working ... Everything Cousins is doing and saying is positive. The idea that's an accident is just naive.

The idea that I said we didn't want Cousins to be happy while he's here is your fantasy. That would be the franchise's interests coinciding with his, so no disagreement there. But like Riggo pointed out, if the franchise got two offers from teams where Cousins' interests were profoundly different from the franchise's, guess whose interests the decision on which team to ship him to the franchise would concern themselves with? You can try to change my argument all you like, but my original point still stands. I would have thought your career as a middle-management, corporate toady, would have tought you that.
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Postby riggofan » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:38 am

KazooSkinsFan wrote:We clearly ... actively ... aligned our interests with his.


This is all catch phrase, buzzword gobbledy-gook taken from the pages of business self help books. I'm glad the Redskins approach fits within the outlines of "7 Habits of Highly Effective Managers".

I still think Kirk Cousins and his agent would agree that Deadskins point is correct. At the end of the day, the Redskins are going to do what is best for the Redskins - not for Kirk Cousins.

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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:47 am

riggofan wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:We clearly ... actively ... aligned our interests with his.


This is all catch phrase, buzzword gobbledy-gook taken from the pages of business self help books. I'm glad the Redskins approach fits within the outlines of "7 Habits of Highly Effective Managers".

I still think Kirk Cousins and his agent would agree that Deadskins point is correct. At the end of the day, the Redskins are going to do what is best for the Redskins - not for Kirk Cousins.


I didn't read a book, I live it. You don't trust management, got it. Actually we are people. We put our pants on one leg at a time, we bleed if you prick us, and we care about people. Most of us on the last one anyway. But again, that's actually like all groups of people. Believe what you want, it doesn't make you correct.
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:49 am

Deadskins wrote:The idea that I said we didn't want Cousins to be happy while he's here is your fantasy


Deadskins wrote:The franchise couldn't care less about Cousins' interests


I'm bored now, I'm moving on.
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Postby Deadskins » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:51 am

KazooSkinsFan wrote:I worked for a lot of people like Danny too who suck at what they do, and they hired people like me to do it for them.

So, you admit you were hired to do their sucking for them. ROTFALMAO
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Postby Deadskins » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:02 am

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
Deadskins wrote:The idea that I said we didn't want Cousins to be happy while he's here is your fantasy


Deadskins wrote:The franchise couldn't care less about Cousins' interests


I'm bored now, I'm moving on.

Gee, that sure is damning evidence. Now, let's look at the entire quote:

Deadskins wrote:The franchise couldn't care less about Cousins' interests unless they happen to coincide with their own. :roll:


I can play that game too.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:a lot of people like a suck, and they hire me to do them.

Hmm, I guess I understand why you want to move on.
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Postby riggofan » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:43 am

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
riggofan wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:We clearly ... actively ... aligned our interests with his.


This is all catch phrase, buzzword gobbledy-gook taken from the pages of business self help books. I'm glad the Redskins approach fits within the outlines of "7 Habits of Highly Effective Managers".

I still think Kirk Cousins and his agent would agree that Deadskins point is correct. At the end of the day, the Redskins are going to do what is best for the Redskins - not for Kirk Cousins.


I didn't read a book, I live it. You don't trust management, got it. Actually we are people. We put our pants on one leg at a time, we bleed if you prick us, and we care about people. Most of us on the last one anyway. But again, that's actually like all groups of people. Believe what you want, it doesn't make you correct.


Good grief, man. I really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not debating whether management is trustworthy or not. I own a small business myself with about 30 employees.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to attack you personally. I just disagreed with your comment.

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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:05 pm

riggofan wrote:Good grief, man. I really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not debating whether management is trustworthy or not. I own a small business myself with about 30 employees.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to attack you personally. I just disagreed with your comment.


I didn't take it as a personal attack, I said you don't trust management.

The choices are not the polar choices that management doesn't care about employees or they will do things counter to their interest to help them. I said they try to align their interests, at least the good ones do. I gave a pretty good example of Cousins and what we'd like in a backup quarterback position to demonstrate that. And that empirically, it's working.

If that is your experience, then I find it particularly odd that you don't understand what I'm saying. But whatever, we're not going anywhere now.
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Postby Countertrey » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:00 pm

John Gruden: says if he were coaching, and his quarterback went down, he would be offering a #1 for Cousins.

Maybe Cousins is worth it... or...
Maybe that's Gruden's not coaching...
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