Week 2 @ Green Bay Postgame

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Postby StorminMormon86 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:07 am

riggofan wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:1. This offense will not work if RGIII doesn't run. Why? See point #2.
2. RGIII is NOT a pocket passer AT ALL. Can he makes reads and throws from the pocket? Yes. Theres more to it than that. RGIII cannot move within the pocket. He cannot buy himself time. His legs are either on or off, there's no middle ground, yet... Those skills were supposed to be groomed this offseason, but he was too busy rehabbing.


If this is true then we wasted those draft picks on RGIII. He'll never last in the league if he has to run as much as he did last year.

I understand your point about mobility and moving out of the pocket. I'm talking specifically though about designed running plays. There was a lot of griping on the radio yesterday that RGIII wasn't running.

Obviously the defense isn't to blame for the offense not putting up points, but is it really so unusual for the offense to start a game with a three and out? Or to not put up points early in the game?

Do you know how many points the Broncos put up in the first quarter yesterday? ZERO. In the meantime, their defense did their job and held the Giants to THREE.

The Broncos actually have a good defense. The Chargers put up 33 points against Philly and the 49ers put up 30+ against the Packers. We could do neither. Our defense is NOT the only problem this year.

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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:15 am

riggofan wrote:If this is true then we wasted those draft picks on RGIII. He'll never last in the league if he has to run as much as he did last year.


1. RGIII has to learn how to operate within the pocket. He doesn't need to run. BUT...
2. He didn't have a chance to develop those skills cus he was in rehab.
3. If he wants to succeed this year, he'll have to run or they're in for a long season.



riggofan wrote:I understand your point about mobility and moving out of the pocket. I'm talking specifically though about designed running plays. There was a lot of griping on the radio yesterday that RGIII wasn't running.


Somehow, some way, his legs need to be more involved.


riggofan wrote:Obviously the defense isn't to blame for the offense not putting up points, but is it really so unusual for the offense to start a game with a three and out? Or to not put up points early in the game?

Do you know how many points the Broncos put up in the first quarter yesterday? ZERO. In the meantime, their defense did their job and held the Giants to THREE.


The Broncos have a beastly defense. An amazing secondary. Their offense may not have scored but they put up drives. Gave the defense a rest. Why are we comparing our mediocre defense to these guys? Why compare them to the Ravens? You and fans have only yourselves to blame if you THOUGHT thats what we had on our hands.

We do not have a defensive team, it's an offensive team. We have a Ferrari of an offense and the engine is toast.
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Postby SkinsJock » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:25 am

I would agree that the offensive game plan has to find a way to make the defense not just be looking for RG3 to just hand it off or drop back - there has to be a better offensive game plan ...

I think the defense has more work to do to be effective than the offense but our offense has got to find ways to stay on the field longer

I did expect more from RG3 - he is looking rusty and I agree with CLL - in that he's not showing any mobility at all
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Postby PulpExposure » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:46 am

I actually think CLL is right on with RG3 not being a pocket passer. But...since his legs aren't right, maybe this is his opportunity to learn how to be one. Think about how good this kid could be IF he had the traditional drop back ability, plus mobility. I hope he takes this time to learn how to read a defense from the pocket...that means more for the long term of this team than winning a game or two right now.

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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:56 am

SkinsJock wrote:I did expect more from RG3 - he is looking rusty and I agree with CLL - in that he's not showing any mobility at all


I think, looking back... We fooled ourselves. Me included. The same way people fooled themselves about this defense.


PulpExposure wrote:I actually think CLL is right on with RG3 not being a pocket passer. But...since his legs aren't right, maybe this is his opportunity to learn how to be one. Think about how good this kid could be IF he had the traditional drop back ability, plus mobility. I hope he takes this time to learn how to read a defense from the pocket...that means more for the long term of this team than winning a game or two right now.


I think his legs are fine. He just doesn't have the skillset, he doesn't have the pocket awareness yet. Those were his deficiencies and he hasn't had a chance to work on them. His legs are more than capable enough to slide around in the pocket, it isn't natural to him.

The read option masked his weaknesses, just like it did for Pat White. The mask is done and you're seeing the incomplete QB that he is. It's a hard dose of reality that nobody really wants to own.
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Postby StorminMormon86 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:12 am

Chris Luva Luva wrote:The mask is done and you're seeing the incomplete QB that he is. It's a hard dose of reality that nobody really wants to own.

Post of the century.

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Postby PulpExposure » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:18 am

Chris Luva Luva wrote:I think his legs are fine. He just doesn't have the skillset, he doesn't have the pocket awareness yet. Those were his deficiencies and he hasn't had a chance to work on them. His legs are more than capable enough to slide around in the pocket, it isn't natural to him.

The read option masked his weaknesses, just like it did for Pat White. The mask is done and you're seeing the incomplete QB that he is. It's a hard dose of reality that nobody really wants to own.


I think you're right. But this is a great opportunity for him to learn those skills. If he's as hard working and as smart as we all think he is, this is it.

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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:58 am

StorminMormon86 wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:The mask is done and you're seeing the incomplete QB that he is. It's a hard dose of reality that nobody really wants to own.

Post of the century.


It's not said as a slight towards him. Any/all second year QB is an incomplete player. His injury really stunted his growth, it's disappointing. But thankfully he has the work ethic to not let it totally derail him.
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Re: Week 2 @ Green Bay Postgame

Postby 1niksder » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:00 am

grampi wrote:
RG3's running plays have been removed from our offensive play calling, which makes the O plain vanilla and easy to defend...I'm all for making him less exposed to injury, but take away that much of the offense and this is what we get.


RGIII's running plays haven't been removed from the playcalling, they just haven't been calling them. We've been given a couple of BS reasons for this over the last two weeks, but the fact is just about every DC in the league (all that saw the Redskins on their 2013 schedule) spent the off-season trying to figure out how to stop it. Half the OC in the league that didn't have it in their playbooks have added it.

The Skins have been running quite a bit of the pistol formation, and a lot of the read option in the first half of both games until they fell way behind and switch to more of a spread. Falling behind caused them to switch from a run based scheme to a pass first scheme is the BS explanation I mentioned above, although it's accurate it's not factual because when they ran the RO out of the pistol Robert never kept the ball. Garcon has had some nice catches and Morris had a few good runs on those plays but it was a few times he should have ran it and didn't.

It's a option... the QB has the option, so we don't know if he's choosing not to keep it or was instructed not to. If so by who?

Then again I remember hear that Cousins should start the season even if RGIII was healthy for week one, those same people said starting 2-2 or 1-3 coming out of the bye wouldn't be a problem...

What's the difference? RGIII is running the same scheme Cousins would have run and defense would have scheme just the same knowing Cousins isn't a running thread?

The difference is Cousins wouldn't have back to back 300+ yard passing games, and after the bye RGIII would've had another month of rust and no live action. Over the last two weeks you see the rust coming off.

This did a lot to help speed up the process:
Image
Until that happened RGIII had all kinds of un-answered questions in the back of his mind. Some of them were answered and his play picked up.

Doesn't happen if he's not in the pocket, definitely not if he had sat until after the bye.


He got his knee brace broken during Sunday's game... let's see where that leads

grampi wrote:I don't have a clue what the hell's going on with the D....they were much better last year with key players out due to injuries...now we have those players back and the D sucks...makes no sense....


I could re-post what I just wrote and that might give you a clue, but it won't fully explain what we are seeing. Honestly the offense has to take a lot of the blame, week one they had two turnovers and safety on their first three possessions, Sunday they were 4 of 13 on 3rd and 4th downs. That keeps the defense on the field.

Before you reply with some fact less post dismissing this reasoning let me help you out...


Everyone made a big deal out of Philly running 53 plays in the first half of last weeks game... that was only a handful(47 or 49 or something like that) of plays more than what RGIII and the Redskins ran in the 2nd half of that same game. So the D was rested in the second half but still could stop Philly's offense (whom put up 30 in a lost yesterday)

The remainder of the mystery is out there in plain sight, and we all love it at it's worst. They've starting to move Kerigan around and lining him up as a DL, combine that with their nickle package (which they run most of the game) equals 3 rookies (Jenkins, Rambo, and Amerson) in the back seven, a group that is lead by a aging MLB that can no longer play in coverage effectively. The frontseven has a returning major contributor that can't be eased back into a unit that evolved without him because his replacement (who played at a very :arrow: "high" level) is suspended for four games.

That was the long response to you're post...

The short response would be unlike you, I'm willing to wait until after the bye... because just like you I don't think the D has a clue as to what they are doing right now.
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Postby grampi » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:05 am

I think the thing some of you are overlooking is when his designed running plays were part of the game plan, THAT made the passing game that much easier because defenses didn't know what to defend against...now that the designed running plays have been taken out of the game plan, this has made the offense MUCH easier to defend...which also means RG3 would have to be almost perfect with his passes as that's what opposing Ds are looking for...if his knee is healthy enough for him to run, then the running plays should be part of the offense...otherwise the losses will continue to mount until one of two things happen...either RG3 gets healthy enough to run full bore, or he becomes a perfect pocket passer...

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Postby riggofan » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:10 am

Chris Luva Luva wrote:The Broncos have a beastly defense. An amazing secondary. Their offense may not have scored but they put up drives. Gave the defense a rest. Why are we comparing our mediocre defense to these guys? Why compare them to the Ravens? You and fans have only yourselves to blame if you THOUGHT thats what we had on our hands.

We do not have a defensive team, it's an offensive team. We have a Ferrari of an offense and the engine is toast.


come on man, give me a freaking break. You're picking an argument about nothing. I understand that our defense is not the Broncos defense. All I'm saying is that 1) we need our defense to keep the game close until the offense gets moving and 2) its not unusual for ANY offense even Peyton Manning's to start out slow in games. These games are getting way out of hand way to early.

I'm not an idiot to think we had a top 5 defense going into this season. I agree with everything you wrote earlier about the state of our defense. We have two rookies starting, safety is still a huge issue, and I've been saying for two years now that London Fletcher is past his prime.

Even so, I don't think any fan including myself was crazy to think that our defense should be AT LEAST AS GOOD as the disaster we fielded last year. And with Rak coming back we should be BETTER.

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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:17 am

riggofan wrote:come on man, give me a freaking break. You're picking an argument about nothing. I understand that our defense is not the Broncos defense. All I'm saying is that 1) we need our defense to keep the game close until the offense gets moving and 2) its not unusual for ANY offense even Peyton Manning's to start out slow in games. These games are getting way out of hand way to early.


What you're not realizing is that the offense is not moving when the game is close. IF the defense was able to achieved your first point, the offense would score zero points.

The only reason the offense moves is because the defense gives up points, thus allowing the opposing defense to basically run prevent.


Now if you truly believe that the offense coincidentally gets in gear once we're 20+ points down, that's your choice. But it's not coincidence, it's because the defense isn't pressuring the offense any more.
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Postby StorminMormon86 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:27 am

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
StorminMormon86 wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:The mask is done and you're seeing the incomplete QB that he is. It's a hard dose of reality that nobody really wants to own.

Post of the century.


It's not said as a slight towards him. Any/all second year QB is an incomplete player. His injury really stunted his growth, it's disappointing. But thankfully he has the work ethic to not let it totally derail him.

I didn't take it as a slight on Griffin. The fans want to turn a blind eye to his inconsistencies, which makes no sense.

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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:29 am

StorminMormon86 wrote:I didn't take it as a slight on Griffin. The fans want to turn a blind eye to his inconsistencies, which makes no sense.


Right but I want to properly frame where he is. He is the model of consistency, ONCE he has obtained and a firm hold on a skill. He's simply deficient at the moment in some key areas, ONCE/IF he grasps those skills, he'll be 110% consistent in it.
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Postby riggofan » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:29 am

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
riggofan wrote:come on man, give me a freaking break. You're picking an argument about nothing. I understand that our defense is not the Broncos defense. All I'm saying is that 1) we need our defense to keep the game close until the offense gets moving and 2) its not unusual for ANY offense even Peyton Manning's to start out slow in games. These games are getting way out of hand way to early.


What you're not realizing is that the offense is not moving when the game is close. IF the defense was able to achieved your first point, the offense would score zero points.


You're just assuming that would be the case. You have no idea whether or not the offense would score points or not if the game remained close. I think our offensive play calling changes as the game gets further out of reach. I also think there is more pressure on the offense to not go three and out which leads to mental mistakes.

Anyway, I'm not quite sure that we're saying anything that different from each other. I pretty much agree with what people are saying about the offense in general, and I definitely agree with your points about the state of our defense.

I guess I'll just say that it is highly disappointing for our defense to show up this year and look far worse than it did at the beginning of last year. I mean, does anybody really believe we could have plugged Kirk Cousins in the past two games and had better results?

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