ESPN Article Bashing Griffin

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Postby Deadskins » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:30 pm

markshark84 wrote:During the days of #17, for some time he was the only starting black QB in the league

Warren Moon? Randal Cunningham?
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Postby emoses14 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:45 pm

StorminMormon86 wrote:
emoses14 wrote:
StorminMormon86 wrote:I don't care about white or black. Williams was our most overrated QB.


Jay Schroeder
Gus Frerotte
Heath Shuler
Mark Brunell
Donovan McNabb
Patrick Ramsey
Shane Mathews (i know he wasn't highly rated, but the fact that he was even rated at all, and started makes him more overrated)
Rex Grossman

Your argument is invalid.

BS.

None of those QBs you listed are talked about today as one of the Skins greats. Williams had one excellent game that just so happened to be the Superbowl.



Well, of course they aren't. They shouldn't be. Doug should. No one thinks, but apparently you think they all do, that Doug is ahead of the Sonnys and the Billys, the Joey Ts. But you said he was THE MOST overrated. Each of those players listed above was at worst, regarded as a starter in this league and went on to prove that even that was too high a rating. By itself that makes them more overrated than Doug. ESPECIALLY Jay Schroeder, who was a special piece of garbage.

Because, you see, Doug won playoff games and a superbowl, coming from behind a few times along the way, AS THE SUB, NOT THE STARTER, that year. Hell a backup QB winning the Superbowl alone would make it hard to argue that he is "our most overrated qb" The fact that he broke all the records in that game. Please.

He had one historic game and a handful of excellent ones. Now if he was being talked about for the hall of fame, that would be overrating him.

Still invalid.
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Postby emoses14 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:50 pm

markshark84 wrote:
emoses14 wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
Deadskins wrote:I can see why he would think the way he does, though I don't necessarily agree with his conclusions, but when I got to this:

When he arrived in Washington last year, he was positioned as the racial bridge of a divided city, even though he had yet to say or do anything of great social significance (and still hasn't).

he lost any credibility he had. Why does it always have to be about race? Can't he just be a QB?

I agree 100%. When I got to that part I just stopped trying to pretend that the author was doing anything other than trying to cash in on RG3's struggles this season.

Yes, I'm sure there are some in DC and across the country that will root for him simply because he is back. How else do you explain why you still see tons of #17 Williams jerseys but no #11 Rypien jerseys? Doug started for less than a season for the team while Mark started for five of six seasons and three of those teams went to the playoffs.


Stop. Right. There. I'm fine if you want to pretend as though there is something wrong with a race of people being fan's of Griffin's solely because he's black. I'm not going to get into why that's just too cute for words, cause it isn't the point here.

However, since Doug was the very first black quarterback to play in, let alone dominate in, a Superbowl, you are being purposefully obtuse not to understand the significance of that event and therefor the prevalence of his jersey over Rypien's. I'm sorry that hurts your color blind feelings. I don't even disagree with the point that Rypien was a better QB for the skins for a longer period of time, but that, again, has nothing to do with it Though it ain't world's better now, that was a vastly different time with respect to the perception of a black qb's ability to play, let alone at a high level, let alone in the pinnacle game of the sport. Now, if you happen to be that special snowflake who just doesn't see color, that's awesome for you. I'd like to be the first to welcome you to the rest of America that doesn't quite operate the same way.

You explain why people wear William's Jersey more than Rypien's because his achievements in the Burgundy and Gold were more salient to more people than Rypien's not just because he was black, but because he was black at that time, on that stage, in that America, in this country, got hurt and THEN blew every possible hope and dream for quality of performance out of the water. If you can't understand that, well I don't know what to tell you.


I agree with most of this. What Williams achieved as a black QB during the '87 season is bigger than just football given the time. In typing, it is very difficult to put into words. #17 did something culturally significant, the football equivalent of Obama being elected as president. Blacks now had a SB winning QB to identify with and, IMHO, is one of the reasons we are seeing more black QBs thrive today.

The reason you see more #17s and less #11s is because of the impact he had on the game; having a SB winning black QB is something ONLY washington can own. People don't only buy jerseys of players because they are statistically good --- they buy jerseys of people they can identify with. That is why you see a lot more white fans with #91s than #59s in the stands on sundays and more black fans with #17 over #11.

The only thing I disagree with is that you believe there is still a "perception" that a black QB can't play or that they aren't given the proper chances to succeed. That is incorrect. During the days of #17, for some time he was the only starting black QB in the league, was grossly underpaid, and under-recruited in college. That is not the case today. Not even close --- and #17s contributions have something to do with this.


Wait. What? I don't think I even implied that. I know I didn't type it. I believe neither of those things. (EDIT: OH, I see where you got that. Sorry. No, the issues now are far more nuanced (usually caged in the phrasing of "just a mobile quarterback" vs. a "pure prototype pocket passer" jargon))

Do I believe that there is only color blind evaluation of (anyone) QBs? Nope. But there clearly has been progress as you point out. I was referring to Griffin only in so far as it shouldn't be that hard to understand (nor viewed as "wrong") why even in better, yet imperfect racial times, a person would more easily identify with someone who looks like them. Hell, you made that same point.
I know he got a pretty good zip on the ball. He has a quick release. . . once I seen a coupla' throws, I was just like 'Yeah, he's that dude.'"

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Postby StorminMormon86 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:02 pm

Williams was 5-9 as a starter. The year the Skins won the Superbowl with him, he started 2 games in the regular season. Both were losses. He is overrated by Skins fans because of that one Superbowl victory. Jay Schroeder (who by all accounts was a douche on a personal level) led the team to a 12-4 record in 86, only to lose in the NFC title game. Then in 87 in the games he started, the Skins went 8-2. I'm not ready to say Schroeder was one of our greats, he's not even close. But look at what he did for those two years. It was a team loaded with talent.

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Postby Deadskins » Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:46 pm

StorminMormon86 wrote:Williams was 5-9 as a starter. The year the Skins won the Superbowl with him, he started 2 games in the regular season. Both were losses. He is overrated by Skins fans because of that one Superbowl victory. Jay Schroeder (who by all accounts was a douche on a personal level) led the team to a 12-4 record in 86, only to lose in the NFC title game. Then in 87 in the games he started, the Skins went 8-2. I'm not ready to say Schroeder was one of our greats, he's not even close. But look at what he did for those two years. It was a team loaded with talent.

And we traded him for Jim Lachey. So we even got value for him when he left. 8)
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Postby HEROHAMO » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:56 pm

StorminMormon86 wrote:I don't care about white or black. Williams was our most overrated QB.


The man helped win a SuperBowl. The ultimate prize in NFL football arguably in all of all sports. All Qbs aspire to win the Lambardi Trophy. Doug Williams managed to do it.

Doug Williams did not have the same career stat wise as some of the same QBs playing at the time Elway, Marino, Montana, Moon or Cunningham. Most would agree that those QBs had better careers overall.
You say he is overrated? By whom? Who is overrating him in what respect?

Williams gets the respect because he was the freaking SuperBowl MVP. The Skins were losing that game. Then Williams gets injured and manages to return to the game. Then not only does he come back he has the best Quarter in NFL history at the time scoring 35 points in a quarter.

He performed when the Skins needed him the most in the biggest game on the biggest stage of all sports. How you attach overrated to him? I dont know?

Most Skins fans give him respect for the fact that he was great in that SuperBowl. You never hear any Skins fans comparing him to Montana, Brady or Peyton? So I really dont get where you are coming from with this overrated stuff?
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Postby StorminMormon86 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:00 pm

He's lauded by Skins fans as one of OUR great QBs. Never said he was being compared to other greats around the same time. Yes he completely showed up Elway (which is awesome) and destroyed the Broncos D. But he wasn't the reason we were even in that Superbowl. The other players get overlooked from the previous season and the 87 season, and Williams gets all of the credit. Mark Rypien also won a Superbowl and was the MVP. And he led the team to the playoffs three years in a row. He gets nowhere near the amount of credit as Williams in the eyes of Skins fans.

I'm not saying the Williams Superbowl win wasn't historically significant, because it was. But Williams as a player, is nowhere close to about a half a dozen other Skins QBs, and what they did for the team.

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Postby HEROHAMO » Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:30 pm

StorminMormon86 wrote:He's lauded by Skins fans as one of OUR great QBs. Never said he was being compared to other greats around the same time. Yes he completely showed up Elway (which is awesome) and destroyed the Broncos D. But he wasn't the reason we were even in that Superbowl. The other players get overlooked from the previous season and the 87 season, and Williams gets all of the credit. Mark Rypien also won a Superbowl and was the MVP. And he led the team to the playoffs three years in a row. He gets nowhere near the amount of credit as Williams in the eyes of Skins fans.

I'm not saying the Williams Superbowl win wasn't historically significant, because it was. But Williams as a player, is nowhere close to about a half a dozen other Skins QBs, and what they did for the team.


Hes lauded as one of the great QBs because he won the freaking SuperBowl and was the MVP in that game.

We have had plenty of polls on this site. Never has Williams been voted above Baugh, Sonny or Theisman.

Rypien and Williams are almost given the same respect. Even though Rypien had the better overall career it was not by much. They both had an incredible SuperBowl win.
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Postby rskin72 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:14 pm

I read the article as well the other day.....and did not agree with many of the points.

First, I do not agree with the conclusion that RGIII has become a media diva. I have read no reports of him slacking off from rehab, from film study, from being a student of the game. Heck, he was even on time for the team picture. And, isn't he a team captain again? So that tells me that the guys in the locker room see the effort and dedication as well.

I classify the article as someone with an ax to grind with RGIII...or maybe it is with a black QB that the author expects to do more than just QB his team on Sundays.......much like that other mediot did last year when he questioned the "blackness" of RGIII.

The biggest divide I see in DC is between the two parties located in the capitol.....

As for our worst QB...god only knows how John Beck cannot be at the top of that long list.

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Postby Kilmer72 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:30 pm

StorminMormon86 wrote:He's lauded by Skins fans as one of OUR great QBs. Never said he was being compared to other greats around the same time. Yes he completely showed up Elway (which is awesome) and destroyed the Broncos D. But he wasn't the reason we were even in that Superbowl. The other players get overlooked from the previous season and the 87 season, and Williams gets all of the credit. Mark Rypien also won a Superbowl and was the MVP. And he led the team to the playoffs three years in a row. He gets nowhere near the amount of credit as Williams in the eyes of Skins fans.

I'm not saying the Williams Superbowl win wasn't historically significant, because it was. But Williams as a player, is nowhere close to about a half a dozen other Skins QBs, and what they did for the team.


Doug Williams actually was great. When you consider he was brought in here as a back up, think of what he had to deal with in Tampa back in those days. Rypien had the Hogs, posse and a talented team,coaches everything. Statistics really don't mean much in this instance.

I remember that game. Doug dug down deep and had one last hurrah left in him and did something no one else ever had. He engineered an umbeliveable amount of points in one quarter. It was like magic, what ever I could think or I wished happen. This was the talent he always was. He came from Tampa, old and beat up. Gibbs was there when Doug was a rookie in Tampa. He knew who Doug was. Instead what we had was Schroeder who looked ok at times or really bad. He had a gun, but he used to fire ankle burners. I'll never forget that picture of him (Schroeder) in the post.

I guess you really have to decide on how great you really think he was. Rypien was tough and could block. Doug has a record that's hard to beat.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Willi ... n_football)

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Postby Deadskins » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:49 pm

And he had some great seasons in Tampa, too. He was the QB who led them to their first winning season. People seem to forget how bad the expansion Buccaneers were.
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Postby rskin72 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:17 pm

For me, great Redskin QB's are few in number....Baugh, Jurgy, maybe Theismann.....then we go to Ryp and Williams. Of course, one can debate this order....preferably over a cold one or two. I just hope that the current Skin QB will become the #1 QB in franchise history.

And I do remember how bad the old Bucs were....and they had great QB talent in Williams, Young..etc. and had other great players as well, but were just horrible somehow year after year. Maybe it was those stupid looking creamsicle uniforms that they wore back then....
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Postby StorminMormon86 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:07 pm

I'm not saying what Williams did for this team wasn't great, just that the guy is overrated by Skins fans. I get the fact that he won a Superbowl, and kicked ass in it. But he was here for four years, and as a starter had a losing record. The guy should NOT EVER be on any top ten Skins QBs of all time lists, which he always seems to be. Do you think the Giants rank Hostetler on their top ten QBs of all time? Similar situation with Williams and Hostetler, IMO.

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Postby skinsfan#33 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:24 pm

Timmy Smith still owns the record for the most rising yards in a SB but isn't considered by anyone to be one of the top rbs in Skins history. He isn't even considered on the top ten of Skins rbs.

He and Ricky Sanders were as much or more responsible for that sb win.

To me Timmy Smith = Doug Williams.

Neither should have jerseys in the stands of Fedex.
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Postby chiefhog44 » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:48 am

rskin72 wrote:I read the article as well the other day.....and did not agree with many of the points.

First, I do not agree with the conclusion that RGIII has become a media diva. I have read no reports of him slacking off from rehab, from film study, from being a student of the game. Heck, he was even on time for the team picture. And, isn't he a team captain again? So that tells me that the guys in the locker room see the effort and dedication as well.

I classify the article as someone with an ax to grind with RGIII...or maybe it is with a black QB that the author expects to do more than just QB his team on Sundays.......much like that other mediot did last year when he questioned the "blackness" of RGIII.

The biggest divide I see in DC is between the two parties located in the capitol.....

As for our worst QB...god only knows how John Beck cannot be at the top of that long list.

I rooted for #11 and #17 during their respective times at the helm of the Redskins....though I have neither of their Jerseys. I do have my #10 jersey....and rotate that with my #7 and #9 jersey's to wear at the games.


Cooley was talking about this. The commercials he did was on his own time and never cut into his rehab time. Instead of watching TV and relaxing after work, he went and did the commercials. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with this.

He also pointed out that this writer calls Griffin a sell out. He's only out to improve his image. More about the commercial then the football. But by writing this kind of baseless article, isn't it the writer who's the sellout? The title doesn't even come close to describing what's in the article. He's coming up with anything with Roberts name on it just to turn some heads and sell some magazines and ultimately, make money on Robert. That's a sell out.
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