What Happened???

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Re: What Happened???

Postby Kilmer72 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:19 pm

Deadskins wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:Kerrigan might be big enough to play 4-3 DE in the NFL, but Orakpo isn't even close enough to be a 4-3 DE

That's nonsense. How would he not be able to rush the passer or provide contain on running plays any differently than he does now if the scheme was changed to a 4-3? The difference is that he wouldn't be required to drop into pass coverage (something the big guys can't do).


Yeah, I made the mistake in an old thread of saying Rak was drafted as a DE. skinsfan33 was correct in saying he was drafted as DE/LB but what I remember is Rak having his hand in the dirt and being successful. I don't remember him have many LB duties. I am sure I will get corrected on this as well. I think it is safe to say the skinsfan33 doesn't think Rak can do the job as a DE in the NFL. That's fine.

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Re: What Happened???

Postby PulpExposure » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:51 pm

I actually think we could transition back to a 4-3 if we wanted. And Orakpo certainly could play DE; Robert Mathis does, and he's a good 10 pounds lighter than Orakpo. That all being said, until we get some legitimate NFL safety play, we could play a nickle defense and still be unable to stop the pass....

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Re: What Happened???

Postby Kilmer72 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:09 pm

PulpExposure wrote:I actually think we could transition back to a 4-3 if we wanted. And Orakpo certainly could play DE; Robert Mathis does, and he's a good 10 pounds lighter than Orakpo. That all being said, until we get some legitimate NFL safety play, we could play a nickle defense and still be unable to stop the pass....


This is true although, we might be able to generate a pass rush from the front 4. Line backers in a 43 might be able to help stop the run and defend the middle. We would still be suspect in the secondary for sure.

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Re: What Happened???

Postby SkinsJock » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:37 pm

talk about 'grasping at straws' - are you guys for real?

the defense sucks but it's not because of the scheme or the game planning …

we have been hurt very badly by a combination of things …

we do have our QB and we are hopefully going to have Bruce and Mike add a bunch more players to the mix soon
The Redskins need to have a plan for how to put a product on the field that will be consistently competitive and they need to stick with that plan - it's taken years to become as bad as we are and it will be years getting out of it

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Re: What Happened???

Postby Kilmer72 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:47 pm

Lol... Of course we are "grasping at straws" At this point in the season what else should we do? Might as well entertain some thoughts.

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Re: What Happened???

Postby SkinsJock » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:57 am

:lol: I'm up for anything - it's been very disappointing to see the defense be as ineffective as it has been

we were hoping for more but … London's age has caught up with him, the secondary is an issue and we have not seen much from the front 7 ...

hopefully the FO stays the course on adding younger players through free agency and the draft

I really don't think that Haslett will be back - it's not just due to him or his play calling but someone has to 'pay the price'
The Redskins need to have a plan for how to put a product on the field that will be consistently competitive and they need to stick with that plan - it's taken years to become as bad as we are and it will be years getting out of it

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Re: What Happened???

Postby skinsfan#33 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:28 am

Deadskins wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:Kerrigan might be big enough to play 4-3 DE in the NFL, but Orakpo isn't even close enough to be a 4-3 DE

That's nonsense. How would he not be able to rush the passer or provide contain on running plays any differently than he does now if the scheme was changed to a 4-3? The difference is that he wouldn't be required to drop into pass coverage (something the big guys can't do).


The difference is in a 3-4 Rak (normally) has three big bodies to his left (would only have two in a 4-3) and almost never has to line up head on with the OT protecting two gaps as he would be reequired to do as a 4-3 DE. He gets to set out wider and use his speed more as a 3-4 OLB and that is exactly what most scouts thought he would have to transition to coming out of college. The fact that he is used in pass covereage is the fault of the Haselet not the fact that he is a 3-4 OLB. I can't remember Gregg LLyode or Kevin Greene dropping into coverage very often for the Steelers. Heck Greene never even played the run, he exclusively rushed the passer.

If we switched to a 4-3, Rak would become a passing down only edge rusher and you would have to sub a run defender on first down and running downs.

The problem with Rak isn't that he is an OLB, it is two fold problem. First and formost he has only one (maybe two) moves when he does rush the passer. Second, Haslelet doesn't scheme him to never drop into coverage. Rak and the rest of the D would be much different players with a different DC.

On that subject The Texans will probably blow out their coaching staff at the end of the year. If Shanny survives he needs to go out and get Wade Phillips as the new DC. Wade is a bad HC but he is a top notch DC.
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Re: What Happened???

Postby skinsfan#33 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:17 am

DaSkinz Baby wrote:1. Ray Flaherty 54-21-3, .720 (7)

2. George Allen 67-30-1, .691 (7)

3. Joe Gibbs 154-94, .621 (16)

4. Jack Pardee 24-24, .500 (3)

5. Turk Edwards 16-18-1, .471 (3)

6. Norv Turner 49-59-1, .454 (6)

7. Joe Kuharich 26-32-2, .448 (5)

8. Otto Graham 17-22-3, .436 (3)

9. Mike Shanahan 24-33, .421 (3+)

10. Bill McPeak 21-46-3, .313 (5)


I think this list speaks for itself as well......


Here is an apples to apples comparison:

Coaches after three years with at least three years coaching:

1. Gibbs I - .732
2. Allen - .715
3. Flaherty - .618
4. Pardee - .500
5. Kuharich - .472
6. Edwards - .444
7/8. Gibbs II/Shanny - .438
9. Graham - .405
10. Norv - .375
11. McPeak - .214

Coaches after four years with at least four years coaching:

1. Gibbs I - .719
2. Allen - .715
3. Flaherty - .644
4. Gibbs II - .469
5. Kuharich - .458
6. Shanny - .429 ***
7. Norv - .406
8. McPeak - .357

*** not a complete four seasons; could range from .375 (if we finish 3-13) or .484 (if we finish 10-6) that puts shanny any where from 7th to 4th.

Norv had a worse winning % than Shanny after three years and his winning % at the end of 4 years is worse than Shanny's is right now. Now Norv sucked but he got almost 7 full seasons before he was fired. Shanny deserves a fifth (as long as he comes back with a new DC and ST coach).
Last edited by skinsfan#33 on Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Happened???

Postby SkinsJock » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:29 am

I'm hoping that Mike comes back for another season but more because of what he and Bruce have done and will continue to do if he's given another year ..

I'm not sure that all the issues on defense are due to Haslett but he may be gone anyway … same for Burns … Kyle is most likely here because he's the HC's son, NOT because he's a really good OC - he's just a good OC … again, the offense might be better with better guys up front

unless things go really badly here … Mike will get another year

we have our franchise QB and a really good RB … PLUS a lot of good young players to build around
The Redskins need to have a plan for how to put a product on the field that will be consistently competitive and they need to stick with that plan - it's taken years to become as bad as we are and it will be years getting out of it

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Re: What Happened???

Postby riggofan » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:39 am

SkinsJock wrote:I'm hoping that Mike comes back for another season but more because of what he and Bruce have done and will continue to do if he's given another year ..


Me too. I agree with your comment about Haslett as well. I don't think he is completely to blame for our defense, the players we've been able to afford have clearly been a factor. But if we can upgrade the DC, why not? I'm sure Snyder would pony up the money for someone like Lovie Smith if he was willing to take the job.
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Re: What Happened???

Postby skinsfan#33 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:55 am

SkinsJock wrote:I'm hoping that Mike comes back for another season but more because of what he and Bruce have done and will continue to do if he's given another year ..

I'm not sure that all the issues on defense are due to Haslett but he may be gone anyway … same for Burns … Kyle is most likely here because he's the HC's son, NOT because he's a really good OC - he's just a good OC … again, the offense might be better with better guys up front

unless things go really badly here … Mike will get another year

we have our franchise QB and a really good RB … PLUS a lot of good young players to build around


I 100% agree that all of the problems on D belong at the feet of Haslett. He certainly could bennefit with better safety play and players that don't miss as many tackles. Don't get me wrong, when I say that he needs to be gone I'm not blaming all of the problems on D on him, but I'm 100% certain (well 99.995%) that Wade Phillips would do a better job with the same tallent. I don't want Jimmy H gone if there isn't a clearly better DC out there, but I would think they should be able to improve in that area.

Now for Burns... people will say leting Danny Smaith go was a mistake; I don't. Hiring Burns to replace him was a mistake! ST coaches and DC can impact their units way more than an OC.

Speaking of OC, Kyle doesn't need to go anywhere. What he has gotten out of the tallent he has to work with on offense is just amazing. We have an OL that only one got would start on most of the other NFL teams. The rest of our guys would be lucky to be backups on other teams. We simple don't have a #2 WR and our #1, while very good, is not great (not a top 5 WR maybe not even a top 10 WR). We have a stud at RB and he would start for at least 28 other NFL teams and a TE that looks like he could be special, but also looks like he will be injury prone. Our franchise QB is returning from his second major knee jury and hasn't been accurate all year, has not progressed (even regressed) at reading defenses and still hasn't figured out how to throw a ball away w/o getting an intentional grounding penalty.

With all of that said, I think it would be a mistake not to bring Shanny back for another season.
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Re: What Happened???

Postby riggofan » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:30 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:I 100% agree that all of the problems on D belong at the feet of Haslett. He certainly could bennefit with better safety play and players that don't miss as many tackles. Don't get me wrong, when I say that he needs to be gone I'm not blaming all of the problems on D on him


hah. Which is it? You just said that all of our D problems belong at the feet of Haslett, but you're not blaming all of the problems on D on him! ;) Seriously though, I get your point.

skinsfan#33 wrote:I'm 100% certain (well 99.995%) that Wade Phillips would do a better job with the same tallent. I don't want Jimmy H gone if there isn't a clearly better DC out there, but I would think they should be able to improve in that area.


I wouldn't say that I'm 100% certain, but I think you're probably right. Wade Phillips is one of those guys who always seems to have a solid defense no matter where he goes. If we have a chance to upgrade the defensive coordinator, then I'm all for it.

Btw I'm not advocating a change at OC, but given the way thing have gone for the Texans this year, I wonder if Kubiak might end up joining the Shannys here in Washington next year in some capacity?
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Re: What Happened???

Postby SkinsJock » Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:07 pm

I'm not advocating change next season for any of the staff at this time ….. that could change :lol:

I'd like to see better guys at those positions but I hope that we can have better players for whomever is coaching them - Kyle is a good OC and the offense will be a lot better with a better O line - Jim is a good DC but it might be time for a change; again, NO MATTER who is running the defense, it will be much better when the areas of concern are addressed - Ken Burns has not shown much at all
The Redskins need to have a plan for how to put a product on the field that will be consistently competitive and they need to stick with that plan - it's taken years to become as bad as we are and it will be years getting out of it

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Re: What Happened???

Postby Deadskins » Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:31 pm

SkinsJock wrote:Ken Burns has not shown much at all

I thought his documentaries on the Civil War and Baseball were quite good.
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Re: What Happened???

Postby skinsfan#33 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:07 pm

SkinsJock wrote:Jim is a good DC but it might be time for a change; again, NO MATTER who is running the defense, it will be much better when the areas of concern are addressed

What make you think Haslett is a good DC? The last time he had a good D it was in Pittsburge (last venture) his three years as the DC in Pburge were the "worst three years" in Bill Cowher's first ten seasons.

There is a reason he was no longer in the NFL.

I don't want to waste any more time on Haslett unless there is clearly no one that would be an upgrade. I say the D will change much more with a change at DC (if the right guy is selected) than it would by adding a few very good players at areas of need!
Hopefully they do both. Improve both the players and the coach, but the biggest change will come at DC.
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