Cousins Is Just Better...

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Re: Cousins Is Just Better...

Postby SkinsJock » Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:39 am

There is no doubt that Cousins is a good NFL QB and that we should keep him ...

the only thing we're really looking at here is the future and the relative potential of the 2 QBs ... there is really no doubt that if RG3 makes the effort to take his game to the next level and plays QB as well as he can and if the same happens to Cousins - RG3 is the best QB for the Redskins going forward ... there may be a few OCs that might prefer to run an offense that would better suit Cousins but I cannot believe we would bring in someone as HC or OC that will not take advantage of the best QB available here

anything can happen and RG3 might not work hard to be as good as he can be but I doubt that's a reality

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Re: Cousins Is Just Better...

Postby riggofan » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:04 am

StorminMormon86 wrote:
Countertrey wrote:There will be twists to this story, depending on the foundation of the new head coach. A defensive minded coach is most likely to value a ball control game, with a premium on the run game and a clock eating short passing game. An offensive minded coach is more likely to prefer an aggressive offensive scheme, with a quick strike capability.

Cousins' skill set is currently best suited to running a traditional WCO... which can easily be adapted to take advantage of a one cut banger like Alf.
Bob is an incredibly dynamic talent, who, when trained up, is more like a very physically gifted version of Mark Rypien. Accurate and powerful, with superior elusiveness... but needs a dominating O-line to have the time to work in the passing game.

Which will it be? Redskins quarterback stock will rise or fall based on the philosophy of the new Head Coach...

People do not want to hear/read this, but this is 100% accurate. I'm not saying Cousins lit the world on fire in his last three games, but he has shown in 2 games how good and effective he could run an NFL offense.


I'm not intending to be snarky here, but what did Cousins do during those games exactly that Rex Grossman didn't/couldn't do when he was starting? I ask this in all seriousness. Take a look at Rex's last six games as a starter. Averaging about 250 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs per game. Wins 2, loses 4. Rex can run an NFL offense, I doubt any of us want to see him starting next September.

I guess my point is that I think all we saw from Cousins is that he could start for an NFL team and not completely crap the bed. I don't really have any clue how good or effective he can be mostly because the game and team situations he has been in the past few weeks have made that impossible. The one thing I did take away from those games is that I would rather have RGIII under center in the 4th quarter down a score or two than Kirk Cousins.

I'll buy the argument that Cousins could probably be a very effective Alex Smith type of guy with some strong pieces around him, especially on the offensive line. He seems like a smart, talented, selfless QB, and I like him. My question though is if you improved the team like that, why would you start Cousins instead of the "incredibly dynamic talent, who, when trained up, is more like a very physically gifted version of Mark Rypien. Accurate and powerful, with superior elusiveness"????

Anyway, I think countertrey made some good points. I will disagree a little about RGIII needing "a dominating O-line to have the time to work in the passing game". For one, you can say that about nearly ANY QB in the league, Cousins included. And second, we didn't have a dominating o-line in 2012, and RGIII was still a pretty effective passer.

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Re: Cousins Is Just Better...

Postby SkinsJock » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:24 am

riggofan wrote:... what did Cousins do during those games exactly that Rex Grossman didn't/couldn't do when he was starting? Take a look at Rex's last six games as a starter. Averaging about 250 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs per game. Wins 2, loses 4. Rex can run an NFL offense, I doubt any of us want to see him starting next September.

we saw from Cousins is that he could start for an NFL team and not completely crap the bed. I don't really have any clue how good or effective he can be mostly because the game and team situations he has been in the past few weeks have made that impossible.
The one thing I did take away from those games is that I would rather have RGIII under center in the 4th quarter down a score or two than Kirk Cousins.

I'll buy the argument that Cousins could probably be a very effective Alex Smith type of guy with some strong pieces around him, especially on the offensive line. He seems like a smart, talented, selfless QB, and I like him. My question though is if you improved the team like that, why would you start Cousins instead of the "incredibly dynamic talent, who, when trained up, is more like a very physically gifted version of Mark Rypien. Accurate and powerful, with superior elusiveness"????

Anyway, I think countertrey made some good points. I will disagree a little about RGIII needing "a dominating O-line to have the time to work in the passing game". For one, you can say that about nearly ANY QB in the league, Cousins included. And second, we didn't have a dominating o-line in 2012, and RGIII was still a pretty effective passer.


+1 - Cousins is here and he's most likely staying as back up - getting a draft pick when we have so many needs is not worth it
and ... we're not getting a starting caliber player for him

Cousins is good but he's certainly not that good - at least not in the minds of the guys that matter :wink:
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Re: Cousins Is Just Better...

Postby Countertrey » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:28 pm

riggofan wrote: I'll buy the argument that Cousins could probably be a very effective Alex Smith type of guy with some strong pieces around him, especially on the offensive line. He seems like a smart, talented, selfless QB, and I like him. My question though is if you improved the team like that, why would you start Cousins instead of the "incredibly dynamic talent, who, when trained up, is more like a very physically gifted version of Mark Rypien. Accurate and powerful, with superior elusiveness"????

Anyway, I think countertrey made some good points. I will disagree a little about RGIII needing "a dominating O-line to have the time to work in the passing game". For one, you can say that about nearly ANY QB in the league, Cousins included. And second, we didn't have a dominating o-line in 2012, and RGIII was still a pretty effective passer.

1: It's fairly simple. If you are a Head Coach, who has a defensive mind set, you are thinking "I want to control the clock. I want to own time of possession, because that keeps my defense fresh". A quarterback like RG3, once trained, will feature explosive plays, and quick scores. That puts your defense right back out on the field, and both increases the risk of them wearing down, AND put the ball back into the hands of the opposing offense. If that offense is a competent ball control team, you could be in trouble.

It's not crazy to think this way... many great coaches have eschewed a high performance offense for a methodical ball control game... including George Allen and Vince Lombardi. I have no doubt that Allen would have preferred Cousins. Lombardi, I think, was more creative (Larry Brown's emergence was the result of Lombardi's vision and genius... playing for anyone else, Larry Brown would have been one hell of a blocking back)

Just making the point... not saying that I would take Cousins over Bob...

2: Bob DOES need more time to set up than Cousins. That's been shown repeatedly. Cousins is trained as a WCO quarterback... and the quick release is the bread and butter of that offense. Cousins troubles begin when is second and third options were covered... and he became vulnerable to the pass rush. Watch the replays with an open mind, you'll see it. This is an area of strength for Kirk, and a current weakness for Bob. It will take Griffin a couple of seasons to develop a quick release, which is as much a function of the pre-snap read as it is of anything else... As long as this is the case, Bob will need more protection. Many of Bob's sacks were the result of him holding the ball too long.

Don't worry... despite this, other than injury, I can't see a likely scenario that see's Griffin on the bench at the beginning of next season...
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Re: Cousins Is Just Better...

Postby OldSchool » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:50 pm

Countertrey wrote:
riggofan wrote: I'll buy the argument that Cousins could probably be a very effective Alex Smith type of guy with some strong pieces around him, especially on the offensive line. He seems like a smart, talented, selfless QB, and I like him. My question though is if you improved the team like that, why would you start Cousins instead of the "incredibly dynamic talent, who, when trained up, is more like a very physically gifted version of Mark Rypien. Accurate and powerful, with superior elusiveness"????

Anyway, I think countertrey made some good points. I will disagree a little about RGIII needing "a dominating O-line to have the time to work in the passing game". For one, you can say that about nearly ANY QB in the league, Cousins included. And second, we didn't have a dominating o-line in 2012, and RGIII was still a pretty effective passer.

1: It's fairly simple. If you are a Head Coach, who has a defensive mind set, you are thinking "I want to control the clock. I want to own time of possession, because that keeps my defense fresh". A quarterback like RG3, once trained, will feature explosive plays, and quick scores. That puts your defense right back out on the field, and both increases the risk of them wearing down, AND put the ball back into the hands of the opposing offense. If that offense is a competent ball control team, you could be in trouble.

It's not crazy to think this way... many great coaches have eschewed a high performance offense for a methodical ball control game... including George Allen and Vince Lombardi. I have no doubt that Allen would have preferred Cousins. Lombardi, I think, was more creative (Larry Brown's emergence was the result of Lombardi's vision and genius... playing for anyone else, Larry Brown would have been one hell of a blocking back)

Just making the point... not saying that I would take Cousins over Bob...

2: Bob DOES need more time to set up than Cousins. That's been shown repeatedly. Cousins is trained as a WCO quarterback... and the quick release is the bread and butter of that offense. Cousins troubles begin when is second and third options were covered... and he became vulnerable to the pass rush. Watch the replays with an open mind, you'll see it. This is an area of strength for Kirk, and a current weakness for Bob. It will take Griffin a couple of seasons to develop a quick release, which is as much a function of the pre-snap read as it is of anything else... As long as this is the case, Bob will need more protection. Many of Bob's sacks were the result of him holding the ball too long.

Don't worry... despite this, other than injury, I can't see a likely scenario that see's Griffin on the bench at the beginning of next season...



Excellent post. It does start with a philosophical choice, I am a more defensive oriented guy who wants to see the Skins control the ball by getting it in steady chunks with a skilled pocket passer. I think that is the kind of philosophy that works in a 19-20 game season. I really think Shannahan's team was pretty close to being a real contender, problems the could address with the freed up salary cap money and a draft or two. Instead we are going to get another rip out and rebuild and Snyder will get his hype machine going and get Skin fans a ginned up about new Head Coach Gottabenutstoworkforsnyderbutthemoneyisgreat. We've already seen this movie a couple of times but can't stop watching for some reason.

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Re: Cousins Is Just Better...

Postby riggofan » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:00 pm

Countertrey wrote:2: Bob DOES need more time to set up than Cousins. That's been shown repeatedly. Cousins is trained as a WCO quarterback... and the quick release is the bread and butter of that offense. Cousins troubles begin when is second and third options were covered... and he became vulnerable to the pass rush. Watch the replays with an open mind, you'll see it.


Thanks, I will. This is definitely one of those things I've seen people comment on that I just haven't seen in the past three games. You guys may be completely right that Cousins is quicker to release the ball, but I don't see that has meant he has been any more accurate or less prone to turnovers. I do see that he's avoided the sacks better.

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Re: Cousins Is Just Better...

Postby PulpExposure » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Countertrey wrote:1: It's fairly simple. If you are a Head Coach, who has a defensive mind set, you are thinking "I want to control the clock. I want to own time of possession, because that keeps my defense fresh". A quarterback like RG3, once trained, will feature explosive plays, and quick scores. That puts your defense right back out on the field, and both increases the risk of them wearing down, AND put the ball back into the hands of the opposing offense. If that offense is a competent ball control team, you could be in trouble.


That could be true, but that ignores the problem with Cousins, in that he's turnover prone. In 8 games, he's turned the ball over 14 times. Almost 2 turnovers a game is not a track record of a QB a ball control coach would want. By comparison, RG3 has 26 turnovers in 28 games (not including playoffs).

What defensive oriented coach would want a QB who produces less touchdowns (8 combined passing-rushing TDs in 8 games versus 43 in 26 games) yet produces more turnovers? Because while explosive/quick strike offense will score points and put your defense back on the field, turnovers puts the defense back on the field, usually in terrible field position, without those accompanying points...

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Re: Cousins Is Just Better...

Postby welch » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:57 pm

I meant to post this somewhere:

- Griffin is not yet a skilled NFL QB, but he has a strong arm and he can run; he works hard and he's smart

- His brains don't necessarily translate into a good QB. It takes practioce and experience. Sonny is not just a broadcasgter: he was the best passer in modern football. Sonny dropped back and saw the entire field at once: no transition for receiver 1 to receiver 2 to receiver 3. Sonny just saw it all and knew where to throw.

- The next coach must ditch the college option offense. It was probably a mistake last season when Shanahan installed it. Should have trained Griffin as a pro QB

- We know that Cousins has practiced the NFL system since he started college. He is at least a good backup. No trading him.

- We will see what happens with Griffin as he learns. Given his speed and his arm. Griffin probably has more potentional, but remember what people said about Drew Bledsoe's backup when Bledsoe was a star for New England...and got hurt.



- Cousins is

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Re: Cousins Is Just Better...

Postby Countertrey » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:19 pm

PulpExposure wrote:
Countertrey wrote:1: It's fairly simple. If you are a Head Coach, who has a defensive mind set, you are thinking "I want to control the clock. I want to own time of possession, because that keeps my defense fresh". A quarterback like RG3, once trained, will feature explosive plays, and quick scores. That puts your defense right back out on the field, and both increases the risk of them wearing down, AND put the ball back into the hands of the opposing offense. If that offense is a competent ball control team, you could be in trouble.


That could be true, but that ignores the problem with Cousins, in that he's turnover prone. In 8 games, he's turned the ball over 14 times. Almost 2 turnovers a game is not a track record of a QB a ball control coach would want. By comparison, RG3 has 26 turnovers in 28 games (not including playoffs).

What defensive oriented coach would want a QB who produces less touchdowns (8 combined passing-rushing TDs in 8 games versus 43 in 26 games) yet produces more turnovers? Because while explosive/quick strike offense will score points and put your defense back on the field, turnovers puts the defense back on the field, usually in terrible field position, without those accompanying points...

Of Kirk's interceptions, only ONE was a bad read. In the others, most were throne BEHIND an open receiver running a slant or an in. ONE was thrown high, which was most likely related to a wet ball, and bounced off of Santana's hands.
All of that is correctable with routine QB work. I don't think you have taken that into account.
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Re: Cousins Is Just Better...

Postby PulpExposure » Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:28 pm

Countertrey wrote:
PulpExposure wrote:
Countertrey wrote:1: It's fairly simple. If you are a Head Coach, who has a defensive mind set, you are thinking "I want to control the clock. I want to own time of possession, because that keeps my defense fresh". A quarterback like RG3, once trained, will feature explosive plays, and quick scores. That puts your defense right back out on the field, and both increases the risk of them wearing down, AND put the ball back into the hands of the opposing offense. If that offense is a competent ball control team, you could be in trouble.


That could be true, but that ignores the problem with Cousins, in that he's turnover prone. In 8 games, he's turned the ball over 14 times. Almost 2 turnovers a game is not a track record of a QB a ball control coach would want. By comparison, RG3 has 26 turnovers in 28 games (not including playoffs).

What defensive oriented coach would want a QB who produces less touchdowns (8 combined passing-rushing TDs in 8 games versus 43 in 26 games) yet produces more turnovers? Because while explosive/quick strike offense will score points and put your defense back on the field, turnovers puts the defense back on the field, usually in terrible field position, without those accompanying points...

Of Kirk's interceptions, only ONE was a bad read. In the others, most were throne BEHIND an open receiver running a slant or an in. ONE was thrown high, which was most likely related to a wet ball, and bounced off of Santana's hands.
All of that is correctable with routine QB work. I don't think you have taken that into account.


I actually think we see things differently. I'm not sure what I see as his issue is correctable. See, I don't see him as a game manager; instead based upon what he does, I see him more of a gunslinger as he's willing and has the confidence to take chances down the field. While some of his INTs were just bad throws, or unfortunate ones where they bounce through a receiver's hands, quite a few others were from him trying to force the ball into tight coverage/windows. The problem is that while he may have the confidence to try those throws, he doesn't have the arm strength. And as his mechanics are already pretty solid, that isn't really correctable.

So I pulled up some examples of INTs as examples. The first was his first INT, against Buffalo where he did throw it behind the receiver...but in very tight coverage with 2 additional defenders near the ball. That's a tough throw to make. But that's his first one, so no biggie. There's this one from last year in Cleveland, where he again threw into a tight coverage, with multiple defenders around the ball. That throw could work if you have the big time arm to make it; however, Cousins doesn't. So, what about this year? Well, against the Falcons, he again tried to force this one against the Falcons into tight coverage. Even if he had led Garcon right and stuck it in there over one dropping linebacker, he would have probably ended up hitting the other linebacker (#55) who was dropping into coverage right into where he had to lead Garcon. One time forcing a throw into coverage can be overlooked, as everyone does it. However, this is multiple times; it's a pattern and a clue as to who Kirk is.

To me, Kirk takes chances. He's not a game manager. I think that's who he is...and it would be as easy to teach him NOT to take chances as it would be to teach Tebow how to actually throw a football.

A good example of his lack of arm strength is here...Rodgers-Cromartie gave up a real nice cushion to Garcon on the hitch pattern, but it took so long for the ball to get to Garcon (and Cousins was locked into him the entire way), DRC was able to break on the ball and take it to the house. That absolutely should have been a completion.

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Re: Cousins Is Just Better...

Postby Countertrey » Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:40 pm

Yup... we see that differently... though, I won't deny that his confidence puts him into the gunslinger category, I think most of his faults are correctable... in other words, he's a lot closer to his ceiling than is Bob...

Just want to make sure, though... I want RG3 running our offense...
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Re: Cousins Is Just Better...

Postby Neo » Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:54 pm

Countertrey wrote:Yup... we see that differently... though, I won't deny that his confidence puts him into the gunslinger category, I think most of his faults are correctable... in other words, he's a lot closer to his ceiling than is Bob...

Just want to make sure, though... I want RG3 running our offense...


I think we're in a win-win situation with Cousins at this point. If we trade him for picks, we could potentially upgrade a roster spot; if he stays, then we don't have to worry about using cap money (or even worse, a draft pick) on another 2nd string QB.

The QB controversy BS has quieted down which is a breath of fresh air.
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Re: Cousins Is Just Better...

Postby AldersonSkinsFan » Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:40 pm

Countertrey wrote:
Both of these quarterbacks will take teams deep into the playoffs at some time. I think there's a good chance that both will end their careers wearing rings...

Bottom line... don't get too attached to Cousins... and don't give up on Bob.


This post after reading it was one of the best ive seen across the internets about the QB situation in Washington. Ive been kinda wearing off on RG3 but this post made me believe better days might be ahead for us. Thank you.

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Re: Cousins Is Just Better...

Postby Neo » Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:32 pm

AldersonSkinsFan wrote:
Countertrey wrote:
Both of these quarterbacks will take teams deep into the playoffs at some time. I think there's a good chance that both will end their careers wearing rings...

Bottom line... don't get too attached to Cousins... and don't give up on Bob.


This post after reading it was one of the best ive seen across the internets about the QB situation in Washington. Ive been kinda wearing off on RG3 but this post made me believe better days might be ahead for us. Thank you.


Hang in there man; we're all feeling the same things.

Though Allen isn't your typical "ideal GM"...he's a great money guy. That's an asset we need in this org to keep the talent onboard while not overspending on one guy.

I think he's aware of his weaknesses, and what we'll get as a result is a "GM by committee". This really has potential to become a powerhouse as long as he surrounds himself with the right people. I think he's smart enough do just that.

His wisdom in building a new coaching staff is evident in how they're handling the interviews; things have been relatively hush hush, and a coach wasn't just hired 10mins after Shanny was gone. Seems they are "serious" about not making a mistake this time around; a lot more information gathering going on.

We have money in 2014, and there's FAs that will be immediate impact players. I think Allen will pull off another budgeting miracle...what he did this year was astonishing. We'll probably cut loose a few heavy cap players which will only add to the cap space (we'll likely even have a good amount of money left over).

We saw what $36 million can do to hold a team back; now you're about to witness what about $36 million in excess can do to push a team forward. Not like the old days though, I think they learned their lesson on adding a bunch of big name guys together, and expecting them to have great chemistry; Allen said they're looking for specific traits/qualities in players. THIS IS A HUGE CHANGE! Having a similar "make up" means the players they sign will naturally work well together.

With a new sheriff in town, players may once again take less money to stay on board. Especially since the coach will be perceived as an upgrade over Shanny. They seem to be up to something good, and confident about in the options they have; they're not looking to force in one guy...they don't need to...there's a handful of quality guys available.

Don't worry about RG3...Shanny is infamous for running players into the ground. He's gone now, and though you can't hire a coach strictly for how he will mold RG3, I'm confident that is high in the priority list. Its impossible for me to believe that this FO would bring in a guy who couldn't convince them of HOW he will mold RG3, and increase his chances of a long and successful career here.

Better days are on the way. Yes, the team is a train wreck right now, but we have money, and are about to have, a new coaching staff that will breath excitement back into the players.

My prediction...2014 will be the start of the new beginning we've all waited too long for. May not be "the" year for us, but we'll see us going fast in the right direction.
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Re: Cousins Is Just Better...

Postby Kilmer72 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:55 pm

PulpExposure wrote:I think at this point we can put this thread to bed.


I'm a culprit. I promise after today I will not post on this thread. yeah yeah shut it. I know what you are thinking. I wont crawl under a rock and die anytime soon.

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