Winners and losers: Bruce Allen & Co and Mike Shanahan & Co

Talk about the Washington Redskins here. Do you bleed burgundy and gold?
~~~~~~
Posts: 10208
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:59 am
Location: Canada

Winners and losers: Bruce Allen & Co and Mike Shanahan & Co

Postby Redskin in Canada » Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:45 am

Bruce and Mike:

The one who adapts his policy to the times prospers, and likewise that the one whose policy clashes with the demands of the times does not.
Niccolo Machiavelli


I understand that IrnBru and several other posters have praised and even been inspired some hope by the Press Conference made by Bruce Allen.

Link to the thread.

Link to the transcript of the Statement made by Bruce Allen.

I, on the other hand, did not find it to be INSPIRATIONAL or to provide any HOPE whatsoever. On the contrary, this was a masterfully crafted political speech in the best tradition of a very savvy machiavellian power (Washington) politician. If anything, I have seen through and experienced a rare opportunity: the shift of power in the best tradition of the Borgias. A drama play could actually be written about it. Let us start ...

To understand Bruce and why this is a process that screams Machiavellian strategies and tactics, let us start with a few quotes from both, The Prince and the Press Conference.

From The Prince:

The wish to acquire more is admittedly a very natural and common thing; and when men succeed in this they are always praised rather than condemned. But when they lack the ability to do so and yet want to acquire more at all costs, they deserve condemnation for their mistakes.
Niccolo Machiavelli


Bruce was actually praised ... check IrnBru's thread and other boards ... Mike, on the other hand, was condemned ..

From the press Conference:

The control will be mine,” Allen said, channeling the late Al Haig, “and it will be working with our personnel department. The personnel department of [director of player personnel] Scott Campbell and [director of pro personnel] Morocco Brown actually do a very good job at what they do. We are going to redefine some of the characteristics that we’re looking for in players. Obviously when we have a new head coach there will be some schematic adjustments that we will make, but that power will be with me.”
Link

Love the insider DC reference to Al Haig:

Constitutionally, gentlemen, you have the President, the Vice President, and the Secretary of State in that order, and should the President decide he wants to transfer the helm to the Vice President, he will do so. He has not done that. As of now, I am in control here, in the White House, pending return of the Vice President and in close touch with him. If something came up, I would check with him, of course.
Alexander Haig, 1981


Not difficult to decipher who the WINNER is here. Bruce Allen won leading CONTROL over the future of this franchise and his Company men are Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown. Once upon a time, the ultimate say, at least allegedly, on who was in and who was out belonged to or had to go through Mike Shanahan.

Not difficult to decipher who the LOSER is here either. With seven million dollars in an allegedly amicable farewell, most posters would hardly consider themselves losers (at least economically) under these circumstances. However, the cost had three additional sides. Not only was the good reputation and legacy (you can discuss how much ad nauseum) damaged and tainted, his staff and son were also FIRED as a result of their personal and collective FAILURES, and any prospects for easy and quick entry into the HOF now will take at least a second consideration. Would you hire a Mike Shanahan assistant, even Kyle, as readily as you would have before?

From the Press Conference:

“To sit here and talk about Mike Shanahan leaving us is difficult because we’re all 3-13. We accept that. We understand it. The Washington Redskins will win and lose as a football team. Period. That’s who we are, and we understand some of the mistakes that were made and we are going to take the next several months and figure out all the mistakes that were made in order to learn from them."


Really, Buce??? :-({|=

we’re all 3-13
We accept that.
We understand it.
That’s who we are ...
and we understand some of the mistakes that were made

WE?????? Was that used to refer to yourself and at least one or more other people considered together in COLLECTIVE responsibility???

And Mike pays with his job, his reputation, loss of power and control, his son and staff fired with a reputation of failure in Washington and the WE becomes WHO? Bruce?

So many people saw the diminutive profile, now understood to have become a deliberate strategy, to avoid any visible association with THEIR failure durinng this season. Where's Bruce? and
I personally feel that two sides have managed to escape criticism for this mess to a large extent : the Mara/Goodell mafia and ... Bruce Allen who has kept such a low and minuscule profile away from all media that almost nobody even mentions his name.
Link

So, whereas the Shanahans and most of their staff are FIRED, Bruce gets rewarded to acquire FULL control? Interesting perspective on the WE.

Last, I am left with a question and a quote. The question:

If you had been given the option to stay as head-coach but FIRE your own son as a condition, would you have done it? Only if you value more power than family and values. In other words, if you are Machiavellian.

And the quote which fits Bruce and Mike in that order:

It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver.
Niccolo Machiavelli


Bruce "Borgia" Allen will be with the Redskins for a long, long time. Vinny Cerrato never had the sophistication this man has but then again, it was Vinny. =D>

Bruce is an entrepreneur:

Entrepreneurs are simply those who understand that there is little difference between failure and opportunity and are able to turn both to their advantage.
Niccolo Machiavelli
Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans over the last decade. Stay away from football operations !!!

08 Champ
Posts: 13158
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:23 pm
Location: on the bandwagon

Re: Winners and losers: Bruce Allen & Co and Mike Shanahan &

Postby SkinsJock » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:06 pm

An interesting concept ... however given the choice between Bruce Allen and this FO and Dan Snyder running things, even with some help from the FO, I'll take Bruce

I do agree that the meeting on Monday would have been short "are you going to consider firing your son ...?" "NO!" "OK - I'm going to let you go ... "

I still think we have some chance at getting some stability here - Mike seemed to be too much in control of everything - I'm hoping that Bruce and the FO will hire a good 'leader' as HC and then help him with great assistants and add some good depth that was lacking last season - we're going to see a different deal in that the HC is not the top dog here at this time - Bruce got that by basically stabbing Mike in the back - however - We have a better chance at success or continuing to get better with Bruce and this FO than with Dan and whomever he would lean on for help

Bruce did come out of this well - he obviously saw the writing on the wall early and positioned himself with Dan accordingly

I would not be surprised at all if Bruce and Dan have not been looking at what 'they' were going to do for some time now

Mike did not do as well as he indicated he would if he were given all the control he said he needed to be successful - Dan is taking some of the 'control' back

Bruce is on the clock here - no doubt
RG3 is now learning how to play QB in the NFL - Mike & Kyle did not help with the transition

Jay & Sean are going to make it happen ... "He has the ability and the desire, he just has to do it.” - J Gruden

~~~~~~
Posts: 10208
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:59 am
Location: Canada

Re: Winners and losers: Bruce Allen & Co and Mike Shanahan &

Postby Redskin in Canada » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:32 pm

SkinsJock wrote:An interesting concept ... however given the choice between Bruce Allen and this FO and Dan Snyder running things, even with some help from the FO, I'll take Bruce

Bruce, Morocco and Scott, or Danny and the abyss? Not much of a choice, Is it?

THIS is EXACTLY the calculation made by Bruce, which leaves Danny with NO OTHER option. Danny cannot afford the luxury of having thousands of fingers pointing at him ... AGAIN (and millions of fleeing dollars away from his pocket). It is a Machiavellian calculation made by Bruce based on the natural instinct on the preservation of profit by the owner.

Look at you all ... already discussing WHO should be hired instead of questioning the dealer shuffling the cards. Masterful. ;)
Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans over the last decade. Stay away from football operations !!!

|||||||
Posts: 4566
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:11 pm
Location: Somewhere, out there.

Re: Winners and losers: Bruce Allen & Co and Mike Shanahan &

Postby UK Skins Fan » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:51 pm

Redskin in Canada wrote:Look at you all ... already discussing WHO should be hired instead of questioning the dealer shuffling the cards. Masterful. ;)

It is what it is. Many of us wanted a different front office structure than we now have, but it didn't happen.

And so, we move on to discussing the coaching situation. Doing so does not indicate that Bruce has pulled any wool over our eyes, or that we are blind to what has/may/may not have happened in the front office, and how it was done.
Also available on Twitter @UKSkinsFan

~~~~~~
Posts: 10208
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:59 am
Location: Canada

Re: Winners and losers: Bruce Allen & Co and Mike Shanahan &

Postby Redskin in Canada » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:08 pm

UK Skins Fan wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:Look at you all ... already discussing WHO should be hired instead of questioning the dealer shuffling the cards. Masterful. ;)

It is what it is. Many of us wanted a different front office structure than we now have, but it didn't happen.

And so, we move on to discussing the coaching situation. Doing so does not indicate that Bruce has pulled any wool over our eyes, or that we are blind to what has/may/may not have happened in the front office, and how it was done.

Glad other fans feel the same way but perhaps this topic is worthy of its own thread in a fans website given the fact that this angle has hardly been addressed in the media to my knowledge.

A salary cap expert and a very savvy politician and not a football expert in charge of the search for the new head-coach. Or as he put it:

On if the next head coach has to be someone that has won as a head coach before:
“It really is an open list. It will have NFL coaches, it will have college coaches on it. Some have head coaching experience, some don’t, and I’m really looking forward to meeting some of the people who I haven’t met yet. I’ve seen them from afar and I want to hear what their dreams are, what they can do, the fire in their belly to coach the Washington Redskins, to inspire the kids on this football team.”


I thought about the part on "fire in their belly". Joe Gibbs would never have been hired. But I hear Schiano is no longer with Tampa. That guy still has lots of "fire in his belly". :roll:

Statements were made TO REASSURE THE FANS. I am very reassured. :---)
Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans over the last decade. Stay away from football operations !!!

Hog
User avatar
Posts: 4524
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 4:29 pm
Location: Montclair, Virginia

Re: Winners and losers: Bruce Allen & Co and Mike Shanahan &

Postby riggofan » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:47 pm

Redskin in Canada wrote:A salary cap expert and a very savvy politician and not a football expert in charge of the search for the new head-coach


Not picking on your post in particular, but I've heard Allen dismissed this way a lot recently. The knock on Allen seems to be that he hasn't worked as a scout, so therefore he is not a "football expert". I don't know about all that, but I'll just say I'm at least willing to give him a chance because:

1) He can't be worse than Vinny Cerrato. (Vinny btw had YEARS and YEARS of scouting experience with the 49ers.)
2) Having a "football expert" hall of fame coach calling all of the shots didn't seem to be the answer.
3) He has legitimate football experience as a player, an executive, and a GM.

I think he's probably a pretty smart guy. My guess is we'll get a pretty quick idea over the next four or five months if he knows what he's doing. The coaching hire alone should tell us a lot.

swine
User avatar
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:57 am
Location: Noblesville, Indiana

Re: Winners and losers: Bruce Allen & Co and Mike Shanahan &

Postby Skins Fan in Indy » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:54 pm

You make a great point Riggo!. We will see the writing on the wall soon enough and it will begin with the hiring process and eventual hire of a new HC. I think Allen will be fine, but im sensing a Tampa Bay pattern with alot of names having ties to Allen and his years in Tampa.
Keeping the Faith in Indy!!!!

08 Champ
Posts: 13158
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:23 pm
Location: on the bandwagon

Re: Winners and losers: Bruce Allen & Co and Mike Shanahan &

Postby SkinsJock » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:10 pm

btw - What happened with this franchise pre Mike & Bruce coming in is really not relevant ... the way things 'work' here now is the beginning of a new era

We wanted a more personnel savvy GM but I don't think it's fair to put a 'bad personnel man' label on Bruce as far as whom this group might select as far as coaches and players are concerned .. Bruce will have learned from mistakes by himself and from others that getting input from all the other guys in our FO and scouting team is going to be the way to go ... I agree that Dan was very clever in deflecting 'blame' by not getting back involved but I also think that Dan may have been counseled by 'his people' that the best thing to do was to take some of the control that Mike had as both the HC and vice president and let Bruce and his people do the front office thing and they in turn could bring in the coaches and players and make that 'work' - this is a big opportunity for Bruce and the FO to make things better here

this franchise has a lot of good players to build around and especially a franchise QB and an owner that will spend money that now has some real input on who to spend it on

we are not a great place to come to work and play but we are getting better at doing that - Mike had too much control and he was not that great a personnel guy anyway

Mike certainly was not my first choice as a HC - we move on - this is not a great 'situation' but it's better than I expected a few weeks ago
RG3 is now learning how to play QB in the NFL - Mike & Kyle did not help with the transition

Jay & Sean are going to make it happen ... "He has the ability and the desire, he just has to do it.” - J Gruden

08 Champ
Posts: 13158
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:23 pm
Location: on the bandwagon

Re: Winners and losers: Bruce Allen & Co and Mike Shanahan &

Postby SkinsJock » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:17 pm

and another thing - great post riggofan ...

I prefer to look at the good things here - Snyder has decided to take the high road and continue to stay out of things - Bruce and the other guys in the FO and scouting dept. are going to get a shot at putting this together without a dictator like Mike - we could do a lot worse and I think we're going to see players and coaches reacting positively to a franchise that is managed properly by NFL guys and with a lot of people feeling that they are accountable for what they do both as coaches and players

this is not a bad place to work and it could be a great place to play - we shall see
RG3 is now learning how to play QB in the NFL - Mike & Kyle did not help with the transition

Jay & Sean are going to make it happen ... "He has the ability and the desire, he just has to do it.” - J Gruden

DarthMonk
Posts: 4330
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:58 pm

Re: Winners and losers: Bruce Allen & Co and Mike Shanahan &

Postby DarthMonk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:02 pm

Redskin in Canada wrote:Look at you all ... already discussing WHO should be hired instead of questioning the dealer shuffling the cards. Masterful. ;


I know what you're saying here but a whole lot of us (most?) have questioned the dealer at some point during our discussion of who the next hire should be. Many (most?) of us are on record as saying Snyder must be pretty much 100% hands-off and several of us do not think Allen is the right guy in terms of player personnel.

Regardless, I agree with your analysis of the calculations Bruce and Dan made.

OTOH, I think Dan could have "promoted" Allen and gone after a personnel guy for the GM job and then survived the finger pointing.

8)
Hog Bowl III, V Champion (2011, 2013)

Hognostication Champion (2011, 2013)


Scalp 'em, Swamp 'em,
We will take 'em big score!
Read 'em, Weep 'em Touchdown,
We want heap more!

~~~~~~
Posts: 10208
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:59 am
Location: Canada

Re: Winners and losers: Bruce Allen & Co and Mike Shanahan &

Postby Redskin in Canada » Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:22 am

DarthMonk wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:Look at you all ... already discussing WHO should be hired instead of questioning the dealer shuffling the cards. Masterful. ;


I know what you're saying here but a whole lot of us (most?) have questioned the dealer at some point during our discussion of who the next hire should be. Many (most?) of us are on record as saying Snyder must be pretty much 100% hands-off and several of us do not think Allen is the right guy in terms of player personnel.

Regardless, I agree with your analysis of the calculations Bruce and Dan made.

OTOH, I think Dan could have "promoted" Allen and gone after a personnel guy for the GM job and then survived the finger pointing.

8)

The flaws at the root of over a decade of failure are well known to all. All I am doing is discussing the latest chapter.

And YES, several posters have discussed and highlighted the need for the change you suggest in the last line of your message. But this NECESSARY change could not take place under the scenario of power grab achieved by Bruce Allen during this latest crisis. ANYBODY brought in to handle personnel would take away that power from Bruce. There is not only power but the money and influence that comes with many millionaire moves. And because of THIS failure, the team is handicapped, once again, to make the BEST choice for coach, assistants and players.

I know that this is not a popular statement. EVERYBODY wants HOPE and INSPIRATION for a change. We have been trying to get hold of these two virtues since 1999!!!!

My point is the following: ONCE THE POWER STRUCTURE IS FLAWED, THE CONSEQUENCES FOLLOW. It is a basic cause and effect process. As long as the expectations of people are REALISTIC and we come to the well expected conclusion that:

1) They will hire somebody "who is worthy to deserve a chance" and the substantial Dan Snyder media organisation creates propaganda for HOPE and INSPIRATION;

2) Some new splashy and expensive Free Agent are brought in as snake oil;

3) Low expectations W-L are understandably warranted for the first season and he is given a chance to re-shape this disaster; and

4) Criticism builds over the second season; then most likely

5) we will start the well known cycle ALL OVER AGAIN.

You have been warned. I am SICK of witnessing the failure of so many Superbowl Caliber players (Jansen, Arrington, Samuels, etc) and great football coaches like Joe Gibbs WASTED with an organization ROTTEN at the core. While I am grateful to them for some great memories, I cannot fail to imagine their much greater success elsewhere.

One day, a few years from now, somebody might bring this thread up and remind us that several of us saw the writing on the wall. We are not geniuses. We simply have been brought to well too many times not to know.
Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans over the last decade. Stay away from football operations !!!

~~~~~~
Posts: 10208
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:59 am
Location: Canada

Re: Winners and losers: Bruce Allen & Co and Mike Shanahan &

Postby Redskin in Canada » Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:29 am

I had not seen this article when I wrote the first post in this thread.

PLEASE read it:

Bruce Allen takes control of Redskins with the slickness, and qualifications, of a politician

The Coiffed One strode somberly into the room, his full thatch of flecked brown freshly tousled. In starched charcoal wool, red-sheen necktie and a Stars & Stripes lapel pinned to his left breast, Bruce Allen hadn’t come to merely soothe shaken followers of a bad NFL team; he was swearing himself into office, into the job Mike Shanahan had been terminated from just five hours before.

There was no campaign trail, no vote, nary a discussion of whether Allen had the fitness to do the job. All he needed was to convince the owner the last four years were all big, bad Mike’s fault. That was it; the job was his.

...
Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans over the last decade. Stay away from football operations !!!

DarthMonk
Posts: 4330
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:58 pm

Re: Winners and losers: Bruce Allen & Co and Mike Shanahan &

Postby DarthMonk » Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:18 am

Redskin in Canada wrote:I had not seen this article when I wrote the first post in this thread.

PLEASE read it:

Bruce Allen takes control of Redskins with the slickness, and qualifications, of a politician

The Coiffed One strode somberly into the room, his full thatch of flecked brown freshly tousled. In starched charcoal wool, red-sheen necktie and a Stars & Stripes lapel pinned to his left breast, Bruce Allen hadn’t come to merely soothe shaken followers of a bad NFL team; he was swearing himself into office, into the job Mike Shanahan had been terminated from just five hours before.

There was no campaign trail, no vote, nary a discussion of whether Allen had the fitness to do the job. All he needed was to convince the owner the last four years were all big, bad Mike’s fault. That was it; the job was his.

...


I think I am agreeing with you when I say "The change we really need has not yet occurred."
Hog Bowl III, V Champion (2011, 2013)

Hognostication Champion (2011, 2013)


Scalp 'em, Swamp 'em,
We will take 'em big score!
Read 'em, Weep 'em Touchdown,
We want heap more!

08 Champ
Posts: 13158
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:23 pm
Location: on the bandwagon

Re: Winners and losers: Bruce Allen & Co and Mike Shanahan &

Postby SkinsJock » Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:37 pm

Like most of the reports at the end of this season a lot of what is being 'reported' is complete BS or hyped speculation ...

I love how some here justify all this BS by stating "well it fits" with everything that goes on here - good luck with that attitude

we do know that in order to bring in Mike Shanahan as HC, Dan Snyder had to give him full control over the football operations here ... Mike did not do well on the field but he did set us out on a path where the football operations are now under the guidance of NFL people and out of Dan Snyder's hands ... that is a good thing

Bruce Allen has the helm now and the only difference in how the franchise is managed is that there will be different responsibilities for the HC and the FO ... we are led to believe that Bruce will (with help and advice from the FO) find a new HC ... Then, Bruce, the HC and the FO will put together a coaching staff ... All of these people will then get together with our scouting departments (college and NFL) and put a roster together

I'm sure that these guys will do a better job than:
if Dan had got back involved
or
if Mike was still the only guy in charge here

I'd rather look at it positively than all the things that could go wrong here
RG3 is now learning how to play QB in the NFL - Mike & Kyle did not help with the transition

Jay & Sean are going to make it happen ... "He has the ability and the desire, he just has to do it.” - J Gruden

~~~~~~
Posts: 10208
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:59 am
Location: Canada

Re: Winners and losers: Bruce Allen & Co and Mike Shanahan &

Postby Redskin in Canada » Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:27 pm

SkinsJock wrote:I'd rather look at it positively than all the things that could go wrong here

Healthy and positive attitude, no doubt,

But when the choices are made and you know the process before, during and after ... I'll be interested to hear your reactions. Just sayin' :wink:
Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans over the last decade. Stay away from football operations !!!

Return to Hog Wash - Washington Redskins Football