Champ...the facts

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Champ...the facts

Postby DEHog » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:08 am

Let's deal with just the facts about what we know about Champ right now. He makes about 2.5 mil which is low for his production. The Skins offered him 55 mil with a 12-14 mil signing bonus, anyway you slice it...it's over 5 mil to play CB for the Skins for the rest of his career and makes him the top paid at the position. He has been a Redskins for 5 years in that five years he has wom a division championship, been coached by Nolan,Roades, Shootenheimer and Lewis. He has been mentored by two hall of famers...Green and Sanders. How many CB's in the league can say that? Those are the facts!! Now he says he wants to win, lets not kid oursevlfs here this is about one thing MONEY. Champ is doing what he needs to do has a player and the skins are doing what they need to do as a organization. Bottom line Champ is a great CB he has done what he has done with no pass rush here in D.C. even Sanders wasn't that good when he was here, because we couldn't generate a pass rush. As for winning your're telling me the Lions are a winning organization?? They haven't won a road game since the Nixon administration. Call me whetever but I believe alot of this is postering by both sides...i believe they will get a deal done in the off season.

Hey Shorebird let me be the first to welcome you and the first to bid you so long...please go visit with your fellow beagles fans. Why no road to the Superbowl shows yet?? Last year they were on by the 8th week of the season!! Here's hoping the Skins knock you out of the top spot in the NFC cuz there's no way you go into St, Louie and beat the greatest show on turf. My most enjoyable game last year was watching you guys loss your 2nd NFC CG.
"Sean Taylor is hands down the best athlete I've ever coached it's not even close" Gregg Williams 2005 Mini-Camp

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Postby skinsfaninroanoke » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:20 am

IMO, his numbers, and lack of production in keeping people out of the end zone this year do NOT qualify him for the Pro Bowl, do not qualify him to be the best paid and IMO don't qualify him to hurt the team with a salary structure that will emasculate the team in the future years.

If he is such a team player, then he needs to realize he is about the last on the list of interceptions, not that high in tackles, that a linebacker beat him in passes defensed and that you can't blame Toomer racing past you on the sidelines in a footrace on the pass rush. Why in the world would the Skins want to pay him the TOP dollar when he is not the TOP db?
Rich in Roanoke
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Postby DEHog » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:25 am

Interceptions say nothing about good CBs cuz they don't get thrown at as much...which is why all those CB down in D oppostie of Deion had a lot of picks As was already mentions here...give any QB time and hell pick any CB apart. I did mention Toomer but man Collins had all day the throw the ball. can you imagine champ and smoot on a team with a pass rush..man I get a woody just thinking about it:P
"Sean Taylor is hands down the best athlete I've ever coached it's not even close" Gregg Williams 2005 Mini-Camp

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Postby skinsfaninroanoke » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:28 am

I understand the pass rush - I made that point. You can't blame Toomer and Bailey in a race on the lack of a pass rush - it was 4 seconds tops.

The number of tackles Bailey is registering is similar in number to a safety - he is getting beaten across the middle on slants and crossing routes when he is getting faked out of his shorts and is getting burnt for hitches and outs too. The man has 62 tackles for a reason chief...
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What DB are better then champ??

Postby DEHog » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:34 am

I believe Champ is in the top 5 DB in the league...as such he should be paid. The Skins want to pay him over the long haul (9 years) He doesn't want that. 9 years is a long time in sports... ask A-Rod about signing a long contact
Last edited by DEHog on Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Sean Taylor is hands down the best athlete I've ever coached it's not even close" Gregg Williams 2005 Mini-Camp

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Postby skinsfaninroanoke » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:56 am

Once again - not showing he is a team player - take less over a short term showing that he understands that his contract can affect the team having other players or do a longer term contract with less impact for the team. But, do we hear of any options? Nope

You really don't want to get into who the five best DBs are in the league do ya? I mean - give me a break - did you actually watch how many times Champ got burnt and penalized and schooled? Top 5 my left foot. Maybe top 10 and that is because some people are scared to throw at him, but the Giants and Saints showed a glaring hole in the rep... teams aren't going to be as scared anymore.

Ok - here is a fun stat - did you know that Champ didn't make the TOP 50 either in passes defensed or interceptions and that most of those who did make the top 50 in interceptions had more passes defensed than Champ? Can you imagine the number of linebackers that beat Champ in both numbers? Yes - he is thrown to less, but THAT much of a difference is a message to you Bailey apologists... he isn't as good as you think he is.
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Postby DEHog » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:06 pm

skinsfaninroanoke wrote:Once again - not showing he is a team player - take less over a short term showing that he understands that his contract can affect the team having other players .


Finally we agree...as for getting into the top 5 sure lets do it. Yes Champ may not have desreved the PB this year but he made it on name recongnition alone...so the league thinks he in the top 4
"Sean Taylor is hands down the best athlete I've ever coached it's not even close" Gregg Williams 2005 Mini-Camp

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Postby Guest » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:17 pm

I'm glad DE Hog understands how I feel, I agree wholeheartedly.

Anyone who has never played CD cannot understand how damn hard of a SKILLED position it is. Its not easy when you have an average pass rush, and it multiplies when you have none. Champ in all his injuries has done a great job IMO this year.

And I don't care if you all hate me for this but Champ isn't worried about the money. He's going to get the money WHEREVER HE GOES. But he does want to win and the RedSkins aren't winning and its sad to say but our future is not bright. Its filled with uncertainty, and I know he wants a ring and he needs to go wherever he feels he can get one. I'm all for being faithful to your team, but when your team has no direction and the head is the tail you can't stay, I wouldn't stay.

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Postby skinsfaninroanoke » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:23 pm

Just curious - how did you break my entire post down to that one line and think I agree that Bailey should be paid close to Top 5 money when the man for the last two years has done less to deserve the Pro Bowl? I don't respect the Pro Bowl - it doesn't mean what it used to. Most people don't - look at the attendance and the TV ratings.

I think that there will be other FA out there who will be better for the TEAM as a whole who will cost less and perform well. Keep in mind that Champ turned down 5 mil a year - how much will it take? 6, 7, 8? What in the world could anyone be thinking to let a player dictate the coaching and bankrupt the teams salary cap position to prove how big a man he is? Personally, people like Champ Bailey and his agents are sores - little puss filled aching sores that drain the life out of what once was a great league that people played in for the FUN of. The man has a large enough head to be his own caricature and I hope we pay someone two mil who comes in and does a reputable job without all the b*tching and actually does a job of LEADING. Then we can use the whiner's leftovers to pay for three or four other good players and maybe get two draft picks on TOP of that. When one player is COSTING the team that much, performing less than the top 50 (that is 50 - not a typo) in interceptions and passes defensed in a position where those two numbers are the definitive numbers, he doesn't deserve top 5 money, IMO.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don't want the cancer on the team if he can't be a part of the team, where the word team means more than money, contract, ego, me, myself, I, Bailey, Champ, top dog, bravado, big head, non performance, big mouth, clever comments to the media, etc.
Rich in Roanoke
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Postby DEHog » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:39 pm

I agreed with you in the fact that Champ is out for Champ and not the team I’m separating what he has done on the field compared to off the field. Speaking of on the field…

Moss 3 for 12 yards
Price 2 for 28 yards
Toomer 4 for 81 yards 1 TD
Brown 4 for 81 yards
Thrash 2 for 26
Johnson 4 for 80 yards 1 TD
Shaw 3 for 23 yards
Galloway 1 for 6 yards
Robinson 5 for 88 yards
Muhammad 9 for 189 yards
Chambers 4 for 48 yards
Horn 2 for 10 yards don’t forget the two PI call that were textbook coverage even the sporting news said they were bogus calls!!
Toomer 2 for 30 yards
Galloway shutout
Total 48 for 681 yards 2TD

These are the numbers of the best WR (who Champ covers) of the teams we’ve played not exactly ProBowl number hun?? Upon further review maybe Champ did deserve PB???
"Sean Taylor is hands down the best athlete I've ever coached it's not even close" Gregg Williams 2005 Mini-Camp

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Postby skinsfaninroanoke » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:57 pm

Actually, did you know that Champ does still rotate receivers? Do you keep tapes? Go back and look and see - he doesn't ALWAYS cover the #1 WR. Edwards said he was looking at changing Lewis' system of keeping Champ to one side of the field, but he hasn't done that.

If you want to really think hard about it, ZONE defenses like the Skins have been in 2/3 of the time this year don't call for a specific CB to cover a specific receiver in most cases. They cover a region of the field.

If you go back, for example, one of the Tampa tight ends was Champs responsibility - right off the top of my head. There was also a WR that Champ was on across the middle that scored a TD because Champ was defending him 5 yards too deep - in the end zone.

I can think of at least 3-4 more touchdowns than your numbers prove that he has given up. I bet there are others here that can supplement that number.

Sorry DEHog. I don't agree, and the numbers you just posted aren't accurate enough to prove that he is a top 5 money man. Not trying to wankle yer nerves - just have a difference of opinions :)
Rich in Roanoke
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Postby DEHog » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:06 pm

Yes all that is true but in watching the games...Champ does rotate and he does cover the best reciever most of the time. You really have to look at this from a bussiness point of view (which I hate!) but the numbers over the past few years back up Champ...if you were one of the top producers in your office would you expect magemanet to pay you as such?
What make this hard and were you and i agree is Champ stance on this he has really ticked me off this year. He should be so much more of a leader. So again I say if he want to go...go let's get something for him. One man is not bigger then the team. Good converstion glad you're on are side!!
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Postby skinsfaninroanoke » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:12 pm

One thing more DEHog - I am a salesman - and in my office I am the top producer. I make commission. I earn every dollar I make because I go out and prove that I produce, and if I don't do that, I don't make the money. I have always been of the mind that any team that was smart, and any player for that matter, would want to have a base contract worth very little and incentives out the ying yang. But the problem with a scab picker like Bailey is that he can't handle not knowing he is the "best" by way of his salary. If he doesn't have that number showing that he is the highest paid for the next however many years - he is going to pout and whine about it. Maybe even holdout when others get bigger contracts in future years. I want to tag his whining butt, get two picks for him (fancy that - two - just his # of ints) and save us enough money to bring in real producing linemen to kill quarterbacks.

His production is way off from his first couple of years - I would expect management to pay him way less, not more.
Rich in Roanoke
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Postby DEHog » Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:13 pm

skinsfaninroanoke wrote: I have always been of the mind that any team that was smart, and any player for that matter, would want to have a base contract worth very little and incentives out the ying yang.


Oh how I wish the league would do something like that, but man the lawsuits...What I would like to see is everyboby paid the same with increases for tenture and making the Pro bowl. Then give the team that wins on Sundays extra $$$ The problem with incentives is all the players will cry evrytime a coach takes him out of the game. Football is the utimate team sport it really doesn''t matter who makes the plays or puts up the numbers isn't it about W's on Sunday or didn't it use to be???
"Sean Taylor is hands down the best athlete I've ever coached it's not even close" Gregg Williams 2005 Mini-Camp

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Postby BossHog » Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:02 pm

Great thread guys. Some excellent points from both of you... no bickering... no name calling... just good conversation.

Thanks for the read.

HTTR
Sean Taylor was one of a kind, may he rest in peace.

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