Great Debate on Champion Bailey... DEHOG AND ROANOKE

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Great Debate on Champion Bailey... DEHOG AND ROANOKE

Postby redskins56 » Sat Dec 20, 2003 2:28 am

I would have to agree with seemingly everything DEHOG said, and coversely, disagree with 2/3 of what Rich in Roanoke said...

Despite what you may think ROANOKE, Champ does stay on a team's number one receiver on every single passing down that they are able to mark up in time, unless the receiver motions, and he and Smoot decide whether or not to switch up, which they will do with a signal, or verbally before the snap.

You said that the Giants and Saints picked Champ apart Rich, and if you are a Skins fan and you watched, you saw Champ have two tremendous days. Why? Because they tried to throw it at him. He had a pick against the Giants, and Toomer was absolutely silent. His longest catch came on a catch and run, off of a deflection, in a pattern across the middle of the field, and Horn had 2 5 yard catches..

Also, in each of your posts, you speak about his passes defensed and interception. I don't know if you heard DEHOG say this or not, but a teams number one cornerback is not supposed to lead the team in defensed passes or picks... If he is doing his job, he should have no picks or passes defensed, because that means he is blanketing his wide out, and the ball isn't coming close to him... So you are arguing against yourself, and the reason he isnt in the top 50, is because the top 50 are people who get beat for completions more often... plain and simple...

Lastly, as for Champ's tackles... There is no disputing that he is the best run supporting CB on this team, if there is then whoever is debating that is crazy... He made three tackles in the backfiled in New York, and is always around the football when he is helping out with the run. The majority of his tackles have been against the run, whereas Fred Smoot's have come against the pass...

The differenece is Smoot is very good, and Bailey is great... Say what you want about his attitude, or leadership, but we don't see what goes on behind the scenes... all we hear, is what pepople tell us they saw in a Detroit paper, or what some reporter, who spilled coffee on his tie heard from one of his "sources" a few days back...

Last time I checked, Smooty, and Lavar were both best friends with Bailey... Laveranues Coles talks about his leadership skills and fortitude all of the time... I don't know about you, but I would rather base my opinoin on a guy around what his family says, and the people he goes to war with, rather than what you are hearing, from someone, who is hearing from, their buddy who heard that Champ isn't happy.

Champ Bailey will be a Redskin next year, whether or not that will be his last season, the jury is still out...

Hail to DEHog in that debate, and hail to the Redskins...

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Postby DEHog » Sat Dec 20, 2003 8:38 am

Well put ...I'm not looking for props I'm just saying what I think as is Rich and I deeply repsect his opinions, because I can tell he knows the game. Trust me If I thought he didn't know the game I wouldn't even engage with him. Some other points to make..Champ and Smoot have to tackle because the guys up front can't stop the run. The future of this defense lies with Lavar,Champ and Fred. The problem is we are weak up the middle, just like a baseball team you have to be strong up the middle. Good tackles,MLB and safeties. I want to keep Champ because he is a known commodity, CB in the NFL is no place to learn on the job ask Jimoh
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Postby redskincity » Sat Dec 20, 2003 8:46 am

I dont know about all that :D SkinsRoanoke has some excellent points and so did Dehog.
• NFL Championships
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Postby skinsfaninroanoke » Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:41 am

rs56 -

Firstly - I watch every game beginning to end because I write a column on every game. I take voluminous notes, and no - you are wrong. Let's take one of Champ's worst days, against Toomer in the FIRST Giant game. (The one we lost and Toomer schooled him) Champ stayed on Toomer most of the day. There was a lot of man coverage that day in the secondary. On another of Champ's supposedly bad days against Carolina - he did NOT get burnt for all of Muhammad's 180+ yards - Smoot got it for some, the linebackers for some, and the safeties for some. They played mostly zone that day. Against Horn, Bailey shut him down, including two major penalties, one good call one bad call. Both penalties gave yardage to stalled drives that N.O. then scored TDs on. However, there were several receptions made by other receivers with Bailey in direct attendance on them. How do I know? Golly, by the jersey number involved.

I don't know who defined #1 corner for you or DEHog - I think many corners who are their teams #1 corners AND lead the team in picks and PD would highly disagree with you.

Lastly QBs are going to throw in everyone's direction eventually. Champ has been thrown on more frequently this year than last and more last year than the year before. Is it possible that he has developed some quirks in what he is doing that is allowing coaches to pinpoint things for the QB to look for, maybe making him more vulnerable?

By the way, before you step in as a referee in a debate, isn't is usual to recuse yourself if you have a predetermined BIAS before you issue judgement so loudly and proudly as if no one knew what you were going to say after you posted two LONG posts, exact duplicates, spelling out how you wanted Bailey's love child or something like that? :)
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Postby redskincity » Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:20 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :o :o :o :o :o :shock: :o :o :o :idea:
• NFL Championships
1937, 1942, 1983, 1987, 1991
• Conference Championships
1936, 1937, 1940, 1942, 1943, 1945, 1972, 1982, 1983, 1987, 1991
• Division Championships
1972, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1987, 1991, 1999,
• All-Time Record:
515-465-27

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Postby DEHog » Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:54 pm

We all agree this is about money except rich he seems to think Champ has slipped a bit, even tough he has said here Champ is in the top ten...do me a favor name 9 that are better than Champ. How much does Champ want? Good question. I think it is moot if Champ doesn't want to play here. Rich do you watch the game on TV or at the stadium? Also the game against Toomer was not as bad as you make it out...Collins had more time than a QB should be aloud..I would have thrown for two c-notes and a pair that day...and why is that the only game you keep bringing up... where are you notes from the other 13 games?
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Postby DEHog » Sat Dec 20, 2003 2:00 pm

www.twominutewarning.com/cbshut.htm

Ineresting website...look at were Bailey/Smoot finished and than look at the teams around them...the difference they have preety good pass rushers. Fred and Champ are two of the best in this league if we added any kind of a pass rush for them they both make All Pro
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Postby skinsfaninroanoke » Sat Dec 20, 2003 2:14 pm

DEHog - those were with a better pass rush - those were last years numbers.... under Marvin Lewis.

I don't disagree with the fact that Champ is good. I disagree with the money he is asking and his performance not being up to par. I don't disagree with the pass rush, or the defensive scheme being bad... I disagree with the amount of money that Champ wants versus his performance versus what the rest of the team needs over the long run. If all we have is Champ Bailey on the team being worth a damn, then we ARE the Cardinals who only had that one good DB on their team at the time. The long term CAP implications of the money Champ wants would be DEVASTATING to the entire team called the Redskins that we ALL profess to love.
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Postby redskins56 » Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:26 am

Again, you made a couple of valid points, and I commend you for that. However, there were alot of things that we continue to disagree on, but it seems as if we are beating a dead horse.

For you to throw in my face that you know, because you write a column about the game, was a bit much I think. We all write or report something about the game in some way, and we are all die hard fans. This website was made so that we could have friendly debates like this one, not so that someone who writes a column, could say that they know more...

The fact of the matter is that we are all die hard Redskins fans, who want to see our team succeed. To bash me for having a bias, was in my opinion asanine. We all have biases because we are die hard fans, on a website talking about the players we have grown to admire over the years. But when you can back up what you say with statistics, and knowledge, which I feel as though I did, then it is more than speaking from the heart...

Hail to the Skins!

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Postby BossHog » Sun Dec 21, 2003 7:38 am

DEHog wrote:Fred and Champ are two of the best in this league if we added any kind of a pass rush for them they both make All Pro


Except if we pay Champ 6-8 mil per season there won't be any cap space to sign any pass rush.

That's the whole point.

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Postby DEHog » Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:04 am

I agree, no one is talking about paying Champ 6-8 mil a year we are talking about trying to keep Champ and not taking a hugh hit to the cap. Is it possilble? I believe so, but both sides must give...to sit back and think Champ is going to settle for be paid anything less then his worth is unrealistic . However Champ can allow the Skins to struture his deal as to be cap friendly for the Skins...will he??? I'm not so sure. You guys are right if we pay him we'll have to cut corners else where. We have Noble coming back, how much will Russell want...I find it very interesting the Skins haven't played him more, are they trying to lower his value. He has said he will give the Skins first shot. First shot at what Russell? Paying you a couple of mil next year. Will Gardner be availible next year it looks like Denver is set to cut him. DT are like left hand pitchers in baseball...the average ones are getting fat contracts!!
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Postby skinsfaninroanoke » Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:25 am

rs56

I have brought up statistics.

I have brought up facts.

You came in here declaring a winner in a contest that you have a bias in. A distinct and clear bias. That isn't asinine. That is fact. How can you clearly call a winner when you lean so far to one side to begin with that I would have to be Atlas lifting the world to convince you otherwise.

I have brought up how this one person could hurt the entire team, and still to this moment you don't want to admit that this is a bad situation, that Champ is "Champion" Bailey, that we should keep him despite what happens - no matter what. That is wearing blinders.

Throwing my column in your face? No, I was establishing my bona fides because to some small degree, I felt I had to show you that I knew exactly what I was talking about, that it wasn't all man to man with Champ covering just the best,number 1 receiver all day - which you wrote in direct contradiction to what I had written. The point about the watching every game and taking notes is that I have backup, have watched every (painful) play this year, taped it, replayed it, seen it in slo mo, yadda yadda yadda. Once again, that I am not some stupid know nothing. I study this game. I have built quite a library of offensive and defensive books on this game, from theories to actually x's and o's books. That is all to establish who I am and what I know - not to belittle you.

If you don't like the fact that someone says you have a bias, well, don't come in with trumpets blaring, put this huge title up, walk in and say that one has won and the other has lost - hail one, don't mention the other, and surprisingly, the winner was in the favor of the person you were gushing all over in the first place. Think about it for a sec - you and BossHog get in a knock down drag out debate and I step in, with you knowing how I feel about Bailey, and declare BossHog the winner while not really giving you any credit for the points you made.

See what I mean? I hope so - because this is the last I am talking about this. DEHog and I agreed on most of our standpoints now, and resolved to agree to disagree and still love our Redskins. I am through talking about this as I have spent a lot of time on this subject.
Rich in Roanoke
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