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Postby redskincity » Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:43 pm

I like everything about DS except anything dealing with any sort management schemes :D I do like his decision to be aggressive but he needs to be aggressive in a controlled manner, just ask Lavar :lol:
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Postby DEHog » Sun Jan 04, 2004 8:24 am

That all I'm saying as well Wingman...I have been amoung the many here who have beat the drum for a GM. I just think we could do a whole lot worst as far as a owner goes. The thing I look for in a person is why do they do things what motives do they have...Is their anyone here that feels DS does not have the Redskins organization best interests at the forefront?? As I said elsewhere HD he has 1 division title under his belt, he made some mistakes after that year, the most glaring one was not signing a kicker. All the blame is being throwm DS way as I knew it would be, but coaches, players and fans have a stake in this as well. How hard was it to watch S. Davis last night, he is not here because SS didn't want him here in his system, and he didn't want to restructure. Of course DS takes to hit for that.
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Postby hailskins666 » Sun Jan 04, 2004 10:41 am

I just think we could do a whole lot worst as far as a owner goes.
you'll hear no argument from me there. bidwell in arz is pathetic. but, its snyder the GM i can't stand............
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Postby Wingman » Mon Jan 05, 2004 1:51 pm

DEHog- Just to be clear, you and I share the same opinion. I think it is counter-productive for "fans" to continually rail against Snyder. If fans are that feed up with him, then go find another team. There are plenty of loyalists like you and I here to make up for their departure. If dont like the man, then beat the man (obscure wrestling take) where it will matter and that is in the wallet. Until then, take your medicine and talk some football.
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Postby BossHog » Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:13 pm

Wingman wrote:DEHog- Just to be clear, you and I share the same opinion. I think it is counter-productive for "fans" to continually rail against Snyder. If fans are that feed up with him, then go find another team. There are plenty of loyalists like you and I here to make up for their departure. If dont like the man, then beat the man (obscure wrestling take) where it will matter and that is in the wallet. Until then, take your medicine and talk some football.


That's silly big man.

I'll be a fan through a lot more than one Redskin owner during my life... and I ain't going nowhere regardless of who it is.

Fans that go find another team becuase they don't like their owner, are no different than ones that leave because of players or coaches... they're fairweather fans... their bandwagonners.

Now I know that you aren't trying to say that if you can't BLINDLY follow your football team then you are not worth your salt as a fan. Because if a fan doesn't have the right to disagree with an owner as much as a player or a coach... that's what you are inferring.

I've stayed out of the Snyder argument for the most part because i think it's senseless to argue about it.

The guy has some great traits no doubt about it. He has the potential to do some great things if he can ever learn from his mistakes.

But there's also no doubt that the guy has done an average job with this franchise in every respect except making money for himself. It wasn't pretty when he got here, I concede that.

But when the ONLY thing that is stopping him from making a real mark on this league is his inability to give someone who knows what they're doing the ability to do it... that's just plain arrogant.

When he steps off the football soapbox and utilizes all the great tools that he brings to the table... the possibilities for him are endless. Until then, he's just spinning his wheels.

If you think that having that opinion means that I should go route for another team... I'd like to know why. You live in the land of the free... surely the rights to opinions and free speech are important to you. And surely you don't doubt my love for this team.

No offense buddy... please don't squash me like a bug the next time you see me :-)
Sean Taylor was one of a kind, may he rest in peace.

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Postby redskincity » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:37 pm

:idea: If fans listen to people who say they should root for another team cause the owner sux at times.

The owner DS would be forced to sell the team for lack of support, so becareful what you wish for :-$

I am really tired of this DS crap, he is going to do what he does.

I am just hoping, he does it better. :D :idea:
• NFL Championships
1937, 1942, 1983, 1987, 1991
• Conference Championships
1936, 1937, 1940, 1942, 1943, 1945, 1972, 1982, 1983, 1987, 1991
• Division Championships
1972, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1987, 1991, 1999,
• All-Time Record:
515-465-27

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Postby Wingman » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:46 pm

Boss- I am not saying that you dont reserve the right to question the owner. Hell no. I say question everything. What I am saying is that these people like Sally Jenkins at the Post cant get off of Snyder need to find another gig. The anti-Snyder bit has been done and redone. It is too easy to target his shortcomings. It takes more to talk about the team and makes for a much more interesting chat, bro. I havent reached the point where some of you with the current regime, maybe I will get there someday and maybe I wont. I just like to rap about Redskins football and have just been fed up with the anti-Snyder plight.
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Postby BossHog » Mon Jan 05, 2004 7:58 pm

I agree big guy. I hate bashing Snyder FOR THE SAKE of bashing Snyder as much as anybody. I just think that he has so much more potential as an owner than what he's accomplishing now.

With his marketing savvy and willingness to spend money, if he ever turns this franchise over to a football guy... the league is in trouble and we fans will be joyous.

But that's a big if.
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Postby DEHog » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:58 pm

Yes..I too am fed up with the anti-Snyder campain...I know it sells papers, but I'm not in that business. My take on it is this I feel it is a combine effort of...

The Front Office (owner included) Look at he more succesful franchises in the history of the NFL and look at the front office...Skins (under Cooke) Baltimore, Miami,S.F. Oakland (forget how you feel about Al) Dallas

The Coaches look at team like NE, KC, Dallas, Denver Tenn.

The players self explanatory

The Fans[/b] If you don't beleive this look no futher then Green Bay on Sunday the fans willed their team to victory...talk about america team wait until next year and you see all the cheese head at FedEx these fans travel with the team!!


Now having said that and assigning each 25% grade the Skins this past year

FO-I felt he did his best to get the perssonel SS wanted
20
Coaching...10

Players...15

Fans...0 ok we had some loyal ones 10

Total 55%=F
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Postby BossHog » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:27 am

The fan shot is uncalled for. I understand that you are frustrated that Redskin tickets are going to opposition's fans but that's on the FO as much as the fans.

They haven't stopped going just because of how the team is playing... they have stopped going because it is the second highest priced ticket in the NFL, and a lot of people just can't afford it... let alone justify paying it to watch a piss poor effort.

The exodus from our home stadium is a combination of ticket prices, parking prices, concession prices... for chrissakes... fans even had to take Snyder to court to have the right to WALK to FedEx. Are they wrong to want to be able to walk there?

I think when fans love their football team so much that they'll take on the owner in court to have the right to still go to the games the way they choose... that's dedication.

We'll never agree so Im not going to dwell. I'm not a Snyder basher... I'm an educated football fan who thinks before he speaks. The responsibility of doing everything for the site also makes me pretty up on everything that goes on. I know things about ownership that I am sworn to secrecy on and they come from sources so close to the epicenter that they can't possibly be false... one day, hopefully I'll be allowed to relay those facts to you. Until then, I'll just say that I am privy to some things about our organization that are pretty disturbing.

Lastly... FO gets a 20? Ridiculous IMO... the owner not letting SOS keep Danny Wuerffel and Kenny Watson and the undermining of the whole farce should be at least a -10 all by itself. Whether you agree with Spurrier wanting to keep the 2 players or not.... getting trumped by the FO just sets an incredibly bad precedent. We never recovered... players realized what a puppet SOS was... and just wouldn't play for him.

Letting Dan Wilkinson go after camp started... another bonehead move. The whole point was to save cap money and we ended up paying so MANY guys to rotate through at DT that we spent the same money. It wasn't Wilkinson's departure that upset me, it was the timing. And while Big Daddy may not have ben a pro bowler... man was he a damn site better than anyone we replaced him with. I give the Big Daddy farce another -5 points. There was nobody left to sign when we let him go... that was Aug 1 (I believe)... that's 2 months AFTER we should have done something about it. That's just bad management... of cap, of personnel, and of morale. Snyderratto doesn't work.
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Postby DEHog » Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:54 am

BossHog wrote:The fan shot is uncalled for. I understand that you are frustrated that Redskin tickets are going to opposition's fans but that's on the FO as much as the fans.

They haven't stopped going just because of how the team is playing... they have stopped going because it is the second highest priced ticket in the NFL, and a lot of people just can't afford it... let alone justify paying it to watch a piss poor effort.



I understand that it's the minority and not the majority. But I can't hang this totally on the FO...what can thay do? The fans are buying the tickets their just not showing up, they lay in waiting for the team to win. The Skins have a Full stadium on the waiting list. But fans don't want to give up their tickets. When the Skins start winning they'll come back and they'll say I've be a season ticket holder since 1962 ect... As for DS I really can't argrue your points because I really do aggree with you.

Yes there are many things going on the average fan does not have purvey to.Yes DS should have let SS sink or swim on his own. I just see most of the blame being thrown his way. And as I stated everyone has a stake in this. The additude with some is win first then I'll come! Everyone says the person at the top is responsible and that's true somewhat but you can't compare this to a regular company or job. If the owner of the company you work for sucks do you just stop going to work? Do you contiue to pay your dues. People suffer everyday at their jobs. This is football you have a choice as a fan not to go. Where I differ with that is I feel you should just give up your tickets. I just feel as fans we should show up and support. It's a marriage for better or worst.

Boss you stated the FO is as much resposible for the tickets going to other fans what make you feel the way and what do you think can be done aside form winning, I know winnnig cures all. It is unrealistic to think a team can win every year
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Postby BossHog » Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:37 am

Boss you stated the FO is as much resposible for the tickets going to other fans what make you feel the way and what do you think can be done aside form winning, I know winnnig cures all. It is unrealistic to think a team can win every year


Because fans aren't getting rid of the tickets JUST because of how the team is playing. They're getting rid of them because it's getting so expensive to go to a game and it's just not worth good money to watch a worthless effort.

Winning won't cure all of this. I can tell you that the FO has rotated through that 'waiting list' so quickly that it won't exist soon. There are people that have only waited the last 3 years and have already been called, compared to some people who waited over a decade. And a 5-11 season isn't going to help that too much is it?

You were at camp right? How many days did you go? How many times did you get harassed to put your name on the waiting list. I can tell you that I was pitched at least 50 times the week I was there and offered Redskin towels etc to do so. I can honestly say that they came off as desperate to get people on that list. You don't need to do that when you have a 'stadium full' waiting.... but when those nimbers are dwindling at break neck speed, a smart guy like DS knows he better start early or there won't be anyone left.

What can be done aside from winning?

Where do I start....
1) Don't raise ticket prices and cite covering costs when the fans know that you made 70 million bucks last year. Not that an owner doesn't have a right to make money -- I totally think he does-- but when a team has a losing season, it's just not smart to raise prices 10%.

2) Don't let money drive every decision made. This crap of the fans taking DS to court for the right to walk to Fed Ex instead of paying for parking or paying for a bus is ludicrous. It leaves a very sour taste in people's mouths. If a fan ants to save a little money by walking, DS will have to find other nickels and dimes to wrench from them. Charging for training camp a few years back is another great example of this problem. There are still people that are bitter about that.

3) Structure. This team is getting difficult for your average fan to follow... so many new bodies EVERY year. With so many different personnel moves in 5 years, and still no apparent direction, this team has no identity for a fan to relate to. Since our FO can't put something together that works -- they have to change it constantly.

4) perception. We are becoming the laughing stock of the league, and while that means little to me... it won't be long before it drastically affects things. Perception goes a long way. If the FO continues the pattern they have set, even Danny's money won't be able to lure players or coaches here. Coaches won't want to come because they have to basically agree to be a pawn. Players won't want to come because their coach is a pawn and the head don't know which way the tail is wagging. Obviously when that happens, there will be even less reasons for a fan to come to games.


You say a fan should just give up his tickets... I think you'll find that a lot of them do... that's why people are waiting less than 3 years my friend. There are other factors like increased stadium capacity, but some of it is definitely just fans having had enough. And an owner that ignores his fan base's opinion is doomed to lose them.

I could go on and on, but as I said before, it's a waste of time. I don't want to come off as a Danny basher. As I have stated repetedly, his raw tools are phenomenal (Snyder's), but he's spinning his wheels right now, and the fans are the ones that are stuck in the mud.
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Postby DEHog » Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:47 am

All good points!! I never expected to get called this soon. I guess my expectations were high, having attended a few games in the RFK atmosphere. I to feel DS has brought this organization down a little I guess I have reserved my judgemant until he get more experience. If he's still doing this 5 years from now then I've got a huge problem.

If you don't see winning curing this then are saying you see a half full stadium?? Football is riding a wave...how long will it last? The other major sports seem to have top out. there's so many things competing for our $$ now days. I don't think DS would ever have a problem attaching a quality coach because has Madden and many other has said there's only 32 of these job.

Would losing the fan base affect Synder??

I've heard of some owners doing some different things lately. Blank took out a full page ad and aplogized to the city for the Falcons this year. A few year back a hockey owner, I believe gave season ticket holders a refund for not making the playoffs!
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Postby hailskins666 » Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:57 am

A few year back a hockey owner, I believe gave season ticket holders a refund for not making the playoffs!
:lol: snyder would be on food stamps if he did that
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Postby BossHog » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:28 pm

DEHog wrote:If you don't see winning curing this then are you saying you see a half full stadium??


No what I am saying is that even if the stadium is full, it will be full of people who are new to the team, not the loyal fans that have been supporting their team for decades. I am saying that you hate that the stadium is full of the opposition's fans and I would put to you that the loyal faithful aren't the ones selling their tickets... it's the new fan base that doesn't have the tradition of the franchise at heart. It's a little harder to sell your tickets to a Cowboys fan when you have a clue about the rivalry... newbies won't care, they just want to recoup their costs.

I don't think DS would ever have a problem attaching a quality coach because has Madden and many other has said there's only 32 of these job.


Unfortunately, that still leaves 31 other places to go. Money can't buy EVERYTHING. The GOOD candidates for a coaching job don't have to choose what they consider a lesser opportunity. So what if there are 32 teams, there are at least 25 coaches that I wouldn't want here. You have to be able to draw the elite... not just find a filler.


Would losing the fan base affect Synder??


Well if it doesn't then it proves what all of his detractors say about him... that he doesn't give a rat's ass about the franchise and it's rich tradition... all he cares about is making money. Those fans are the ones putting money in his pocket... if he steers them wrong, it will eventuall come back to haunt him.

I've heard of some owners doing some different things lately. Blank took out a full page ad and aplogized to the city for the Falcons this year. A few year back a hockey owner, I believe gave season ticket holders a refund for not making the playoffs!


Snyder has yet to do anything but raise prices... lowering them, or rebating for poor performance is definitely not in his nature. He seems to be going on the impression that there are SO many Redskin fans that if he peeves a few thousand of them there will be a few thousand more waiting. That logic can only bear itself out for so long. Eventually, we'll be left with nothing but corporate big wigs at games, because there the only ones who can afford it and they're the only ones that Snyder caters to (luxury suite additions etc)

I agree that Snyder is still new at this... but so what? Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it. This offseason will teach us a lot about what The Danny has learned... if anything.
Sean Taylor was one of a kind, may he rest in peace.

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