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GSPODS
Hog
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 4983
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| VetSkinsFan wrote: | | GSPODS wrote: | | VetSkinsFan wrote: | | GSPODS wrote: | | skinsfan#33 wrote: | | The worst thing is even a stud WR does very little to improve a team. |
 Signing a Marvin Harrison, a Reggie Wayne, a Randy Moss, a Braylon Edwards, et. al. does very little to improve a team? If you took any one of the "stud" wide receivers in the NFL and added their statistics to the Washington Redskins 2007 offensive numbers, the Redskins would be in the top three offensive passing teams in the NFL.
The Redskins averaged 216.4 yards per game passing and 20.9 points per game last season. Let's leave Randy Moss out of the equation, since his touchdown total last season was the extreme.
The top 12 wide receivers in the league last season averaged 1200 receiving yards for the season, or 100 yards per game. Adding that 100 receiving yards per game to the Redskins average would have given the Skins 316.4 average passing yards per game. The Patriots led the NFL last season with 295.7 passing yards per game.
The top 12 wide receivers in the league last season averaged 10 touchdown receptions last season. Those extra 70 points would have given the Redskins a scoring average of 25.25 points per game. That scoring average would have put the Redskins at #7 in the league instead of tied for 18th with Chicago and Tampa Bay.
How is it that a stud wide receiver does very little to improve a team? |
Gotta have the QB to throw to him so the stud WR needs a supporting cast. |
True enough, but does the QB make the receiver look better, or does the receiver make the QB look better? In my opinion, the receiver makes the QB look better because the receiver makes all of the adjustments on both the route and on the ball. The QB throws the ball where he thinks the receiver will be or where the receiver is supposed to be but the receiver actually has to either get to the correct spot, or to adjust to a poorly thrown ball.
A mediocre QB looks much better with stud receivers.
A great QB looks medicore with mediocre receivers.
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True, but I think they are both reliant on one another enough to not be able to separate them. See Randy Moss in Oakland. |
Randy Moss took plays off in Oakland, most all of them, in fact. Moss openly admitted he quit trying and gave up on the team. Terrell Owens quit on Philadelphia. And it looks like Chad Johnson could be the next receiver to quit on his team.
I look at it this way. If Moss had quit on the Patriots the same way he quit on the Raiders, would New England have won 18 games in a row? Would they have led the NFL in passing offense? Or scoring? Take away those 23 touchdowns by Moss and New England looks average at best. Take away half of them and New England loses a few games and looks beatable long before the SuperBowl.
You ideally want to have both a stud QB and two stud WR's but free agency never built that offense in the salary cap era. You have to have some luck with the draft. That's where Vinny Cerrato can either make all the doubters come around, or force us to build a gallows outside the door of Redskins Park. |
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JansenFan
and Jackson
Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 8909
Location: Charles Town, WV
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Irn-Bru wrote: | | skinsfan#33 wrote: | | The worst thing is even a stud WR does very little to improve a team. |
It seemed to help the Patriots. . . |
They won the super bowl without Randy Moss and lost it with him. it helped in the regular season, but not so much in the super bowl. 
If you have a good offensive line, a good QB and a good RB, you can deal with mediocre receivers. Top wide outs are only involved in 5-10 plays a game. Not to diminish that those are sometimes the 5-10 biggest plays of the game, just saying that in the grand scheme of things, you can win with an average receiver before you could win with average players at other skill positions. |
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GSPODS
Hog
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 4983
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| JansenFan wrote: | | If you have a good offensive line, a good QB and a good RB, you can deal with mediocre receivers. Top wide outs are only involved in 5-10 plays a game. Not to diminish that those are sometimes the 5-10 biggest plays of the game, just saying that in the grand scheme of things, you can win with an average receiver before you could win with average players at other skill positions. |
I'll agree with that. What a team can't do is win with mediocre players at every position. Other than possibly Chris Cooley, who do the Redskins have on offense that would be the first position player selected in a draft of current NFL players? Or even the second player? Or even in the top 10?
Portis makes the top 10 running backs and Samuels might go in the top 10 tackles but the QB, wide receivers and remaining offensive linemen are somewhere down the list. Jansen would have been on the list were it not for his injuries.
The Skins need some top talent somewhere on the offensive side of the ball.
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fleetus
Hog
Joined: 25 Apr 2004
Posts: 1757
Location: Charlottesville, Va.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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It's a team sport. Other than QB and RB who touch the ball 20-40 times a game each, there is no position more important than the others, IMHO. This is what makes the NFL great. The starting Center is just as important as the starting WR. Neither will do well without their other teammates capable of doing their jobs well. The 2nd WR is just as important as the #1 WR, otherwise, a defense can simply double-team all day long.
As a side note, this is why the salary cap has made the NFL the best sport, bar none. The emphasis is on team, not the individual. |
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skinsfan#33
#33
Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 3875
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Irn-Bru wrote: | | skinsfan#33 wrote: | | The worst thing is even a stud WR does very little to improve a team. |
It seemed to help the Patriots. . . |
Not win a SB. They won three w/o half the tallent at WR they had last year. The Patriot kind of support my point.
When the Eagles added TO they had been to three straight NFC champ games. They won their 4th (w/o TO) and lost the SB w/him. |
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CanesSkins26
Canes Skin
Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 6870
Location: Alexandria, VA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| skinsfan#33 wrote: | | Irn-Bru wrote: | | skinsfan#33 wrote: | | The worst thing is even a stud WR does very little to improve a team. |
It seemed to help the Patriots. . . |
Not win a SB. They won three w/o half the tallent at WR they had last year. The Patriot kind of support my point. |
It doesn't support your point at all. The Patriots went 18-1 and likely would've won the Super Bowl had it not been for the prayer that Eli threw up to Tyree. Without Moss who knows if the Patriots even make the Super Bowl. |
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skinsfan#33
#33
Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 3875
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| GSPODS wrote: | | VetSkinsFan wrote: | | GSPODS wrote: | | skinsfan#33 wrote: | | The worst thing is even a stud WR does very little to improve a team. |
Signing a Marvin Harrison, a Reggie Wayne, a Randy Moss, a Braylon Edwards, et. al. does very little to improve a team? If you took any one of the "stud" wide receivers in the NFL and added their statistics to the Washington Redskins 2007 offensive numbers, the Redskins would be in the top three offensive passing teams in the NFL.
The Redskins averaged 216.4 yards per game passing and 20.9 points per game last season. Let's leave Randy Moss out of the equation, since his touchdown total last season was the extreme.
The top 12 wide receivers in the league last season averaged 1200 receiving yards for the season, or 100 yards per game. Adding that 100 receiving yards per game to the Redskins average would have given the Skins 316.4 average passing yards per game. The Patriots led the NFL last season with 295.7 passing yards per game.
The top 12 wide receivers in the league last season averaged 10 touchdown receptions last season. Those extra 70 points would have given the Redskins a scoring average of 25.25 points per game. That scoring average would have put the Redskins at #7 in the league instead of tied for 18th with Chicago and Tampa Bay.
How is it that a stud wide receiver does very little to improve a team? |
Gotta have the QB to throw to him so the stud WR needs a supporting cast. |
A mediocre QB looks much better with stud receivers.
A great QB looks medicore with mediocre receivers.
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Tell that to Tom Brady and Joe Montana (won two SB before Rice).
John Elway almost never had good recievers.
D Mac while over rated (hey ESPN can't fire me) has had virtually no help at QB.
Look at the Skins duiring the 80's. Monk, Charlie Brown, Sanders, and Clark could only help the handful of pedestian QBs, the Skins had tossing them the ball so much. Monk's numbers were hurt dramatically by the quality of QB play.
But you know what helps both QB play and WR play - a great O line. If you can run the ball and protect the passer your offense will be beter than average even with problems at QB and WR (see 2007 Vikings - no talent at either QB and WR - both Peterson and Taylor looked great)
I can't think of one example where one WR was added to a team and their O went from bad to good or from average to great. But look how much Cleveland's O improved because of their additions to the OL. I know people will say "but they got good QB play and great play from Winslow and Edwards" and I say "exactly!" They all were there before and didn't do anything until they got their OL right. The OL even made washed up J Lewis look good.
The fact that our O was as good as it was with the train wreck we had at OL, is a testimate to how good Buges is and how much better our skill possition players are than we give them credit for. |
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skinsfan#33
#33
Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 3875
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| GSPODS wrote: | | skinsfan#33 wrote: | | The worst thing is even a stud WR does very little to improve a team. |
Signing a Marvin Harrison, a Reggie Wayne, a Randy Moss, a Braylon Edwards, et. al. does very little to improve a team? If you took any one of the "stud" wide receivers in the NFL and added their statistics to the Washington Redskins 2007 offensive numbers, the Redskins would be in the top three offensive passing teams in the NFL.
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You've got to be kiding me about Wayne, Harrison, and Moss, rigth?
Ever heard of Peton Manning or Tom Brady. Come to think of it the Patriots won 3 SB w/o any WR talent (or very little) and lost one w/tons of WR talent.
Braylon Edwards didn't just get to the Browns last year. he has been there for several years. What changed was the QB play and running game improved and why is that. The Browns added Joe Thomas (2007 draft) and Eric Steinbeck during that same offseason as a free agent. The Browns got a dominant OL and their Offense all of a sudden looked good. Washed-up J Lewis looked like a good RB again. Edwards who had been a bust up until that point looked good, and D Anderson became a good QB. The additions of Thomas add Steinbeck helped th Browns more than anything else.
Now as far as adding numbers go. If we hadn't lost our starting LG (FA), RG (Wk 2 inj), and RT(wk 1 inj) all of out offensive numbers would have improved as well and a WR would have done next to nothing. We get Randy Thomas and Jon Janson back and that leave needing an upgrade to a competant starter at LG. Let me reword that, we need a starting LG that wouldn't have been a backup on a 4-12 team (which is exactly what Kendall would have been if we didn't trade for him) |
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skinsfan#33
#33
Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 3875
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| CanesSkins26 wrote: | | skinsfan#33 wrote: | | Irn-Bru wrote: | | skinsfan#33 wrote: | | The worst thing is even a stud WR does very little to improve a team. |
It seemed to help the Patriots. . . |
Not win a SB. They won three w/o half the tallent at WR they had last year. The Patriot kind of support my point. |
It doesn't support your point at all. The Patriots went 18-1 and likely would've won the Super Bowl had it not been for the prayer that Eli threw up to Tyree. Without Moss who knows if the Patriots even make the Super Bowl. |
Simple fact is they didn't. They lost the most import game of the season and mostly because they couldn't protect Brady. They won 3 SB w/o good WRs, how does that not support my case. |
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CanesSkins26
Canes Skin
Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 6870
Location: Alexandria, VA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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I can't think of one example where one WR was added to a team and their O went from bad to good or from average to great. But look how much Cleveland's O improved because of their additions to the OL. I know people will say "but they got good QB play and great play from Winslow and Edwards" and I say "exactly!" They all were there before and didn't do anything until they got their OL right. The OL even made washed up J Lewis look good. |
Well, the Patriots went from 12th in the NFL in passing in 2006 to 1st in 2007 due to the additions of Moss and Welker. The Cowboys went from 15th in passing in 2005 to 5th in 2006 after getting Terrell Owens. In 2003 the Eagles were ranked 20th in the NFL in passing and McNabb had a qb rating of 79.6. In 2004, after adding TO, McNabb's qb rating jumped to a career high 104.7 and the team's passing offense ranked 7th in the NFL.
All that you have to do to see the importance of wide receivers is look at the top 5 NFL offenses from 2007. Those 5 teams had the following players: Moss, Welker, TO, Boldin, Fitzgerald, Jennings, Colston, Wayne, Harrison. Obviously having a good offensive line is critical to offensive success, but the NFL is becoming more of a passing league every year. Teams aren't going to be successful just by pounding the ball in the running game anymore. You have to be able to spread the field and throw the ball. Without good receivers that is very difficult to do.
You pointed out the Vikings, who had the #1 rushing offense and the #1 rushing defense in the NFL in 2007. Despite that they still finished 8-8 and didn't make the playoffs. |
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CanesSkins26
Canes Skin
Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 6870
Location: Alexandria, VA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Edwards who had been a bust up until that point looked good, and D Anderson became a good QB. |
When did Edwards ever look like a bust? He had a very good rookie year before getting hurt and improved on that in 2006. Despite awful qb play he still gained over 800 yards, averaged over 14 yards a catch, and hauled in 6 td's in 2006. |
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CanesSkins26
Canes Skin
Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 6870
Location: Alexandria, VA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| skinsfan#33 wrote: | | CanesSkins26 wrote: | | skinsfan#33 wrote: | | Irn-Bru wrote: | | skinsfan#33 wrote: | | The worst thing is even a stud WR does very little to improve a team. |
It seemed to help the Patriots. . . |
Not win a SB. They won three w/o half the tallent at WR they had last year. The Patriot kind of support my point. |
It doesn't support your point at all. The Patriots went 18-1 and likely would've won the Super Bowl had it not been for the prayer that Eli threw up to Tyree. Without Moss who knows if the Patriots even make the Super Bowl. |
Simple fact is they didn't. They lost the most import game of the season and mostly because they couldn't protect Brady. They won 3 SB w/o good WRs, how does that not support my case. |
It doesn't support your point because your point doesn't make any sense. This season the Pats arguably had a better offensive line than they did when they won their Super Bowls. Brady only took 21 sacks this season, while in their Super Bowl winning years he took 41, 32, and 26 sacks respectively. The Patriots had a very good offensive line this season, but they simply got outplayed by the Giants' defensive line in the Super Bowl. Their loss had nothing to do with having good wide receivers or having subpar talent on the offensive line, they simply got beat that day. It doesn't take away from the fact that Moss and Welker tremendously improved their offense and without those players they likely wouldn't have even made the Super Bowl. |
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CanesSkins26
Canes Skin
Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 6870
Location: Alexandria, VA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | We get Randy Thomas and Jon Janson back and that leave needing an upgrade to a competant starter at LG. Let me reword that, we need a starting LG that wouldn't have been a backup on a 4-12 team (which is exactly what Kendall would have been if we didn't trade for him) |
One more thing....Will you please stop the nonsense about replacing Kendall. Barring injury, he is going to be our starting left guard this season. You might not like that, but you should probably start getting used to the idea. No draft pick or signing is going to change that at this point. He is a veteran guy who did a good job last season despite the fact that the right side of our offensive line was decimated. No, he isn't great at pulling, but he is good enough to start for us this season. Drafting a young guy to potentially replace him in 2009 is important, but that isn't going to happen until the mid rounds of the draft. |
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skinsfan#33
#33
Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 3875
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| CanesSkins26 wrote: | | Quote: |
I can't think of one example where one WR was added to a team and their O went from bad to good or from average to great. But look how much Cleveland's O improved because of their additions to the OL. I know people will say "but they got good QB play and great play from Winslow and Edwards" and I say "exactly!" They all were there before and didn't do anything until they got their OL right. The OL even made washed up J Lewis look good. |
Well, the Patriots went from 12th in the NFL in passing in 2006 to 1st in 2007 due to the additions of Moss and Welker. The Cowboys went from 15th in passing in 2005 to 5th in 2006 after getting Terrell Owens. In 2003 the Eagles were ranked 20th in the NFL in passing and McNabb had a qb rating of 79.6. In 2004, after adding TO, McNabb's qb rating jumped to a career high 104.7 and the team's passing offense ranked 7th in the NFL.
All that you have to do to see the importance of wide receivers is look at the top 5 NFL offenses from 2007. Those 5 teams had the following players: Moss, Welker, TO, Boldin, Fitzgerald, Jennings, Colston, Wayne, Harrison. Obviously having a good offensive line is critical to offensive success, but the NFL is becoming more of a passing league every year. Teams aren't going to be successful just by pounding the ball in the running game anymore. You have to be able to spread the field and throw the ball. Without good receivers that is very difficult to do.
You pointed out the Vikings, who had the #1 rushing offense and the #1 rushing defense in the NFL in 2007. Despite that they still finished 8-8 and didn't make the playoffs. |
Ok so the Patriots added two very good WRs (who by the way were nothing special w/their previous teams and Tom Brady start tossing to them all of a sudden their great - kind of makes you go hmm?) and improved from a good O to a great O. But they still lost the big game and have the 72 Dolphind making commercials at their expense. Me I think they were better when the actually became champions at the end of the season.
The Cowboys got better because of Tony Romo and M Barber (possibly even P Crayton) and they still haven't won a playoff game since Bill Clinton's first term in the White house. 
The Eagles had been to 3 straight NFC championship games w/o TO and lost the SB w/him (come to think about it - has TO ever been on a team that won a play off game when he was on the field?)
Fitgerald and Boldin maybe the best duo of WR in the NFL. If they aren't they are in the top three. And the Cards still suck. Indy will be good as long as Manning is healthy and his OL gives him a little time and I don't care who his WRs are. (Harrison and Wayne are pretty good though) Colston????
Cinncy has some pretty good WRs and a very good QB, but they are still the Bungles. Detroit has some good WRs and still are lame.
Face it WR are just not that important to a team. |
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GSPODS
Hog
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 4983
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Did you forget that same Randy Moss was on the Vikings team that set the NFL scoring record? I think you did. |
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