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Postby VetSkinsFan » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:09 am

DEHog wrote:Franchise player??? I guess I have a different definition of a franchise player...it's one you can't win without...last time I checked we don't have one of those??


Very rarely are there those players that you can absolutely not win without. Peyton, Tom, Drew are about the only ones that come to mind, and even when Tom went out, they still did decently with the backup.

I believe that losing Cooley would be detrimental to the team output and to the locker room. We keep talking about consistancy and building thru the draft; this is directly counterproductive to this agenda.
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Postby DEHog » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:19 am

VetSkinsFan wrote:
DEHog wrote:Franchise player??? I guess I have a different definition of a franchise player...it's one you can't win without...last time I checked we don't have one of those??


Very rarely are there those players that you can absolutely not win without. Peyton, Tom, Drew are about the only ones that come to mind, and even when Tom went out, they still did decently with the backup.

I believe that losing Cooley would be detrimental to the team output and to the locker room. We keep talking about consistancy and building thru the draft; this is directly counterproductive to this agenda.


I should have said I agree with Vet...and with this post as well...
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Postby PulpExposure » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:47 am

Redskin in Canada wrote:It feels good today in an otherwise dismal season. I hope they manage to achieve an 8 - 8 record plus / minus one game. That's my highest hope right now. Then they would have met my expectation for this season.

Considering the circumstances, 8 - 8 would be an excellent result. After that, there will be many substantial changes in this team and I do not know what to say about those yet.


Actually, I disagree completely. 8-8 would be a horrible result, because it would mean that we showed a tremendous comeback...and that it may get Cerrato and Snyder thinking that we're not far off from competing.

The best result would be to lose an embarrassing amount of games, which would require Snyder to take a critical look at the talent on the team, the structure of the FO, and the coaching staff.

Which may hopefully result in a bloodbath.

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Postby frankcal20 » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:58 am

I really have a hard time rooting for losses. One would hope that they can see the light and realize that the players are playing for pride right now and overachieving with an 8-8 record. But let's all be honest here, that's not going to happen. I see 1 maybe 2 more wins - tops.

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Postby markshark84 » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:06 pm

PulpExposure wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:It feels good today in an otherwise dismal season. I hope they manage to achieve an 8 - 8 record plus / minus one game. That's my highest hope right now. Then they would have met my expectation for this season.

Considering the circumstances, 8 - 8 would be an excellent result. After that, there will be many substantial changes in this team and I do not know what to say about those yet.


Actually, I disagree completely. 8-8 would be a horrible result, because it would mean that we showed a tremendous comeback...and that it may get Cerrato and Snyder thinking that we're not far off from competing.

The best result would be to lose an embarrassing amount of games, which would require Snyder to take a critical look at the talent on the team, the structure of the FO, and the coaching staff.

Which may hopefully result in a bloodbath.


I agree with Pulp, here. I think that we need to have a bad season to make the necessary changes needed to turn this franchise around. We need to get rid of our current front office.

The reason that Cerrator is still around is due to the mediocre seasons we have had here. We need to hit rock bottom before we can Snyder realizes what he has done. If we rebound, it may cause Snyder to believe that perhaps Cerrato is doing something right, which IMHO, couldn't be further from the truth.

If we continue to win, or even end the season with a final 9 game record of 4-5 or 5-4, expect more of the same.

The way I see it, it is taking one step back to take two steps forward.
RIP Sean Taylor. You will be missed.

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Postby Irn-Bru » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:12 pm

I disagree with the above opinions. Practicing losing is always harmful, be it preseason or the last game in a losing-record year.

Fan speculation on the calculus of losing to gain draft picks, losing now to improve chances of winning later etc., has so little chance of matching reality that there's no point in hanging on to it — especially at the expense of hoping your team loses on Sunday. You have to have a God's-eye perspective even to make the argument, not to mention cheering for your team to lose.

Ask the Lions how losing in order to get high draft picks goes. The Patriots, Colts, and Steelers never get to pick high in the first round anymore. I can't imagine how they expect to maintain any success.

If Danny and Vinny are such idiots that an 8-8 year would make them think we were only one step away, then a 3-13 season isn't going to help us any more. Whatever marginal advantages a 3-13 season confers on the team, they will find a way to screw it up. I don't know why people assume they will get smarter and learn how to manage an organization just because we lost a bunch more games. Much better then, IMO, to cheer for the Redskins to win, game in and game out.

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Postby VetSkinsFan » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:22 pm

Well put, IB.

I can't say I haven't danced with the very notion that you're pointing out here, but I just can't bring myself to do it. I can't help that every Sunday from when I wake up until 12:59p, the minute before kickoff, I hope that this is the week the Redskins turn it around!

And damn it, for the moment, they have. And I'm glad that I had high hopes for them and they pulled it out. Yes, I was upset when we spotted Denver 14 pts, but just like last year vs the Eagles, we prevailed.

HTTR
...any given Sunday....

RIP #21 Sean Taylor. You will be loved and adored by Redskins fans forever!!!!!

GSPODS:
The National Anthem sucks.
What a useless piece of propagandist rhetoric that is.

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Postby DEHog » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:25 pm

I'm with you Vet and I even feel better going into Dallas!
"Sean Taylor is hands down the best athlete I've ever coached it's not even close" Gregg Williams 2005 Mini-Camp

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Postby Irn-Bru » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:26 pm

VetSkinsFan wrote:Well put, IB.

I can't say I haven't danced with the very notion that you're pointing out here, but I just can't bring myself to do it. I can't help that every Sunday from when I wake up until 12:59p, the minute before kickoff, I hope that this is the week the Redskins turn it around!

And damn it, for the moment, they have. And I'm glad that I had high hopes for them and they pulled it out. Yes, I was upset when we spotted Denver 14 pts, but just like last year vs the Eagles, we prevailed.

HTTR


Yep. Moments like this in seasons like this one are hard to come by. It's best to sit back and enjoy it, instead of wondering how it will affect 2014. :)

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Postby Irn-Bru » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:27 pm

DEHog wrote:I'm with you Vet and I even feel better going into Dallas!


We have a real shot at this one. Dallas is going to feel like they are a much better team than us, and they go into this week scrambled and confused after that awful game they played in Green Bay. We could sneak by with this one.

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Postby VetSkinsFan » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:28 pm

I was praying that they didn't get shut out. I didn't want to be that rebound team.
...any given Sunday....

RIP #21 Sean Taylor. You will be loved and adored by Redskins fans forever!!!!!

GSPODS:
The National Anthem sucks.
What a useless piece of propagandist rhetoric that is.

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Postby markshark84 » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:30 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:I disagree with the above opinions. Practicing losing is always harmful, be it preseason or the last game in a losing-record year.

Ask the Lions how losing in order to get high draft picks goes. The Patriots, Colts, and Steelers never get to pick high in the first round anymore. I can't imagine how they expect to maintain any success.

If Danny and Vinny are such idiots that an 8-8 year would make them think we were only one step away, then a 3-13 season isn't going to help us any more. Whatever marginal advantages a 3-13 season confers on the team, they will find a way to screw it up. I don't know why people assume they will get smarter and learn how to manage an organization just because we lost a bunch more games. Much better then, IMO, to cheer for the Redskins to win, game in and game out.


Trust me, they don't have to TRY to lose. They will do it on their own accord. I am not saying they should throw games or attempt to lose -- because they won't. It is in the players, coaches, and FOs best interest to win, regardles of whether the season is done. They won't have to do this. They will lose even when trying their best.

Your second paragraph is an example of how the FO works. The lions have a bad front office. The pats, pitt, and colts have good FOs. Doesn't have to do with where draft picks are. The fact is that I don't care if we lose to get higher draft picks. It doesn't matter. The chips will fall where they fall. There will be potential pro bowlers in the 6th round of any draft. History has proved this. You just need a talented FO to find those players. We don't have that with Danny and Vinny.

As far as paragraph 3, if you believe that our FO will find a way to screw it up, then why bother -- or why wouldn't you want to see a season that creates an end to our current inept FO? An 8-8 season may cause the current FO to stay put. If we were to win out and still get a new FO, I would be all for it. My position is that I would like to see a season where Danny realizes that our FO is horrible and he actually does something about it. Over the past decade, we have teetered on mediocrity --- and kept the same FO. It will take a very bad season for Danny to realize that we need to go in a different direction in terms of FO. Our past decade of mediocrity hasn't caused Danny to make that realization. He needs a kick in the face and an 8-8 season wouldn't do it. Besides, after last year, our 8-8 season (ending 2-6), caused people, including the fans and FO, to believe we were a playoff team. Why wouldn't the current FO think that an 8-8 season (ending 6-2) cause them to believe that this team was one step away? Danny would just spin this into how this team just needed time to come together. BUT, we all know this is crap.

The FO is, IMHO, the most important component of a franchise. Without a good FO that lacks the necessary vision to accomplish their goals, the team is destined for failure. I don't want this team to lose. I just want this team to place themselves in a position to succeed. That is impossible with the current structure of the organization.
RIP Sean Taylor. You will be missed.

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Postby SnyderSucks » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:39 pm

PAPDOG67 wrote:I didn't get to watch the game today, can someone provide me with a review of how Chad Reinhart played?



www.profootballfocus.com

They grade all the players from all the teams each week.
With the Cardinals reaching the Super Bowl, is Dan Snyder officially the worst owner in the league?

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Postby dlc » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:59 pm

VetSkinsFan wrote:
dlc wrote:
VetSkinsFan wrote:
While I think Moss adds to our team, I'd trade Cooley for an early pick (maybe an early 2nd rounder so we can stockpile Olinemen). We have Davis and he can learn to block a little better and do what we need there, and is younger. I really believe having 2 quality TEs is a luxary, a luxary the Skins can't afford - consdering our other issues.


You'd trade our best receiver and Pro Bowl TE and rely on a TE who's had a few decent games? And keep Moss instead?

Wow. Cooley is a guy we can rely on WHILE rebuilding, and you want to get rid of him? This is nominated as the bonehead post of the week.


This might not be the right move, but it's definitely not a bonehead post. Cooley is a good WR, but most people want to keep him around because he's a likable guy. Isn't that Snyder's mentality to personnel decisions?

A TE has two even responsiblities and Cooley is very good at one and below average on the other. Because he's likable, most people overlook the times he gets blown up by an LB or sometimes wiffs altogether.

With the exceptions of some (like Monk, Green, Mann), you should always be ready to trade players if it makes the team better as a whole. If we got a 2nd rounder or a pretty decent RT for Cooley with Yoder and Davis filling in, that's how you get better.

Bonehead decisions are picking players mostly on popularity and personality.

Look at the good teams. Indy dropped Marvin Harrison, Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James. Patriots traded away Ty Law, Assante Samuel, Vrabel, Seymour (too many to list). These aren't just great players, most were symbols of the team before they left.

Smart teams look beyond emotional ties. Personnel is like investments, buy low and sell high.


Cooley is a franchise player and you don't trade away franchise player. He's led the team in receptions the past three years (2006-08 ) and was only behind Moss by 13 catches in Moss' record year. He had 37 catches as a rookie.

To think that we support Cooley b/c he's "a likeable guy" is absurd at the very least. He's a competitor, he's a Pro Bowler, and he's our best receiver. That, my friend, is why this is a boneheaded move.

And the majority of those players listed were either on the decline or on the end of their prime (stereotypically). Cooley's not there, and Asante was too expensive. Apples and oranges.

Please show me, with what I illustrated, how this is an emotional decision...


You managed to completely ignore the fact that I said that it's not definitely a smart move to get rid of him, but depending on what's offered it might be.

And you also ignored the fact that I said he was a very good receiver but TEs need to block as well as catch. I haven't heard anyone say that Cooley was a good blocker. Maybe average at best. An objective view of pass protection and run-blocking yesterday might also consider that the TEs did their job blocking as well.

Lastly, when does a TE ever be the franchise player you build around? QB, OT, DB, MLB, or RB perhaps. I don't think TEs make the top 5 of important positions. If we get a draft pick or a trade for that yields a solid or above average one of the positions, I'd take it in a heartbeat. Too bad we have Danny and Vinny behind determining that.

Cooley is a good player, but I think he's overrated to be called franchise or great. To think you're going to get something of value without giving up something of value is naive. Cooley, along with Moss, are probably our only options that would tempt organizations with a good pick or even a good prospect or two. Those who take smart risks are the ones who win.

The Skins have been doing it the wrong way this decade. We give up the no-names opting for the overrated big names. Buy high sell low.

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Postby dlc » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:16 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:
DEHog wrote:I'm with you Vet and I even feel better going into Dallas!


We have a real shot at this one. Dallas is going to feel like they are a much better team than us, and they go into this week scrambled and confused after that awful game they played in Green Bay. We could sneak by with this one.


I feel the same way. Forget playing for draft picks.

Yes, we can beat Dallas. As long as we play the players that deserve to play, not the ones that on paper should be playing, we can be a competitive team again. We aren't the most talented, esp. with injuries, but in this league, the smart, disciplined and dedicated can overcome the talented.

Let's hope the confidence from last game will get these guys motivated.

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