why we should trade up for a franchise QB

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Postby Deadskins » Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:15 am

SkinsJock wrote:
Deadskins wrote:... We don't have that many holes to fill that we can't do it in one off-season any more. With the draft and free agency, I think we can fill our holes and still get more depth this year.


proof positive that you really are not in touch :twisted: I used to think that I was optimistic - you are dreaming

Please! So you're telling me we have so many holes we can't become competetive in this one off-season? I've read many posts where you've said we will be a playoff team next year. For the last two off-seasons we've been filling holes. Now we have a solid base, and I think this off-season we can finally finish the job, and get back to the level we all want to be. This year we need to get a top tier QB, and get some solid depth. But other than QB, we don't really have any glaring needs. I would like to get some good defensive backs, and a couple of solid offensive linemen out of the draft and free agency, but that is certainly doable in one year. Are you saying it isn't?
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Postby 1niksder » Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:30 am

Some of the QBs playing this weekend...

Andy Dalton backed up by Bruce Gradkowski, T.J. Yates, Tim Tebow and/or Brady Quinn or Kyle Orton plus if Ben Roethlisberger can't go you get Charlie Batch and post season newbies Matthew Stafford and Alex Smith

Not many Franchise QBs in this bunch

The NFC teams almost all sport a QB that can be called Franchise guys
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Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:21 am

1niksder wrote:Some of the QBs playing this weekend...

Andy Dalton backed up by Bruce Gradkowski, T.J. Yates, Tim Tebow and/or Brady Quinn or Kyle Orton plus if Ben Roethlisberger can't go you get Charlie Batch and post season newbies Matthew Stafford and Alex Smith

Not many Franchise QBs in this bunch

The NFC teams almost all sport a QB that can be called Franchise guys
I agree u can't call most any back up a franchise qb but there probably was one in front of them at the #1 spot. Shaub Big Ben Flacco Brady all are w Dalton making a statement and being their guy and Tebow being himself I'd say they all are franchise qbs. At least that their franchise believes they are. NFC all qbs like u said any of whom we would be stoked to have in B&G.
So I don't get what u r saying I guess
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Postby Colorado Skin Fan » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:38 am

cowboykillerzRED wrote:Let look at this rationally. What teams are dominating right now? I don't think every team going to the playoffs is ..or even that great for that matter *NY. What do they all have in common?
The team with arguably the best CB tandem is watching from home- Jets
Urlacher and his bears D is home
The two RBs w the most yards? Guess?
Even Fitzgerald megatron ect cant carry their teams to post season.
Its Franchise QBs! Ding ding ding!
Is it a coincidence that most any NFL fan w slight knowledge of other teams can name every qb in the playoffs? How about RB? Gets a little harder eh?
As far as ranked Ds carrying their teams I count three that are in the playoffs with the Norm being pretty poor D. However the Ravens Pitti and SF all have good offense and franchise Qbs so it isn't like the Bears carrying grossy to the SB.
Most teams that are winning NOW is with good to great offenses carrying the team. The top two seeds having close to the worst D in gb and ne.

I'm not saying D doesn't win games or that qb alone is all we need BUT its the most important piece WE need at this time.
I could care less what we've done in the past.. As for the shanny plan anyone here who thinks they know his agenda is delusional. Last year we added pieces to the D and saw it go from 31st to 15th w a lot of time @ or around top ten. This year its O.
My opinion is our O isn't as far off as most think. And our D aswell. With everyone healthy and a few signings in free agency OL, WR, possibly LB and CB the only glaring hole is QB.
We add a franchise QB we are instantly a better team and had it been this year and not Rex in the playoffs. To me no price is to high to add the center piece of a team and become a force for the next couple years. If drafting more possible players for depth and hoping one pans out as a starter is more important to you then taking a gamble on a guy that may or may not lead us out of the basement and into the next glory years... Then I'm glad u aren't calling the shots.
How was Flynns college stats? Sure wasn't coveted like Luck or RGiii. Two players that can be coached up and groomed to be the next Brady Rogers etc.
We ARE a few pieces away and the biggest is QB. To me that says do what ever it takes to get the best possible solution. Then fill holes w FA and what ever picks left.
Its my thinking that after this year we won't be picking in the top ten anymore so trading a 32 overall pick isn't a big deal.
When have we made a big move to get a franchise qb? Oh that's right not in my life time. To hell with trading up and youth we already have youth. Let's make move for once instead pay a FA back up or retread and expect anything but the same.


I agree. So trade down and we get a marginally better. Are we looking to become the Jets or Cowboys? Good enough to be competitive, but not good enough to be anything more because we are QB hampered? We suffered through the season and ended up with a #6 pick, giving us the chance to draft a coveted QB either straight up or by trade. There are no guarantees, but I think you have to take your best shot. Get that guy in the draft now while you have bargaining leverage (RGIII in my opinion), bolster your O-Line in free agency, and really start building a Super Bowl team rather than a perennial middle of the road. Nobody is going to want to trade-off a #1 or #2 pick to a team in the 20th position. We'd be left to find the hidden gem or to hope that somebody else's retread has a rebirth in our system and becomes the guy.

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Postby 1niksder » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:05 am

cowboykillerzRED wrote:
1niksder wrote:Some of the QBs playing this weekend...

Andy Dalton backed up by Bruce Gradkowski, T.J. Yates, Tim Tebow and/or Brady Quinn or Kyle Orton plus if Ben Roethlisberger can't go you get Charlie Batch and post season newbies Matthew Stafford and Alex Smith

Not many Franchise QBs in this bunch

The NFC teams almost all sport a QB that can be called Franchise guys
I agree u can't call most any back up a franchise qb but there probably was one in front of them at the #1 spot. Shaub Big Ben Flacco Brady all are w Dalton making a statement and being their guy and Tebow being himself I'd say they all are franchise qbs. At least that their franchise believes they are. NFC all qbs like u said any of whom we would be stoked to have in B&G.
So I don't get what u r saying I guess


You don't get it because you think they're all Franchice QBs... they aren't ALL Franchise QBs, that's what I'm getting at

Dalton is a rookie that dropped to Cincy in the draft.
Tebow started the season as the #3 in Denver.
Smith was consider a bust 12 months ago and Stafford has three other #1s on the roster with him.
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Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:05 am

Ok the majority IS one isn't and one might be?
What's your definition?
I agree my wording was off.. I suggested that while not all are imo franchise qbs someone thinks they are. I personally don't think Teebow is but his franchise appears to?
I think Teebow is crap but he is the face of the Broncos in fact they traded away Orton who had the most passing yards last year to give him the reins. If Teebow can grow and improve I see him as the number one for a long time. Breaking records is not as likely.
Dalton is a Rookie qb who took the bungholes to the playoffs without a TO or ochocinco... Posted SOLID numbers while starting every game. He's not a Cam Newton but ill take his 20tds 13ints vs Rexs 16tds 20! Ints.
Of the teams in the playoffs one has a crappy qb the argument of the franchise sticker is kind of pointless. Bottom line is I'd take back up Yates over Rex..
My point was the GOOD-GREAT teams have what we don't behind center. I wouldn't use either word to describe Denver their sham season with holy Teebow will end very shortly.
#21 forever in our hearts
...and yet ANOTHER record setting performance by "RG3 the third"!!!!
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Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:25 am

I might not get it cus I definitely consider Stafford a franchise qb.. Hill and Stanton? Na. Number ones? Doubtful at best.
And for Alex Smith.. It shows the coaching mightve been the issue last year ya think? I'd ship him in a shiny franchise box label him and be set to deliver next year if I could get him in B&G
#21 forever in our hearts
...and yet ANOTHER record setting performance by "RG3 the third"!!!!
“I wanted to just… put his lights out ….because, you know, …Dallas sucks…” - Dexter Manley

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Postby SkinsJock » Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:10 pm

Deadskins wrote:... you're telling me we have so many holes we can't become competetive in this one off-season? I've read many posts where you've said we will be a playoff team next year. For the last two off-seasons we've been filling holes. Now we have a solid base, and I think this off-season we can finally finish the job, and get back to the level we all want to be. This year we need to get a top tier QB, and get some solid depth. But other than QB, we don't really have any glaring needs. I would like to get some good defensive backs, and a couple of solid offensive linemen out of the draft and free agency, but that is certainly doable in one year. Are you saying it isn't?


I still think that we will make the playoffs in 2012
this is based on the improvement we will have PLUS the other teams in the NFC East that we get to play 6 times

I am concerned about the quality of QBs available (free agency +the draft), we will have improved play from the QB, but ...

we need to keep building - this franchise has little depth on both lines and many positions of need

we will be in the playoffs but we're a little further away from having a consistently competitive product on the field

we need a very good QB and to continue to build this team - we're most likely NOT getting our future great QB this year

STICK WITH THE PLAN
Getting our QB back will help a lot but we still have a lot of issues to address

Players and coaches need to believe that they can be successful - they are not playing with that attitude - big changes are coming

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Postby SkinsJock » Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:19 pm

From re reading your response - I guess we both think we're close to what we both want

Mainly because of the QB - I think we're a little more than a good draft and some good free agent additions away

I like we're we are cap wise - we have flexibility there ... but .....

this seems like a very good draft for some positions, we should also be able to add some good free agents
PLUS we have some guys that we both found out a lot about and could not use that will help

I just think that the QB deal is going to hold this franchise back

like I said - we're going to be in the playoffs, but .....

We need to stick with the Shanaplan - add players PLUS get younger
Getting our QB back will help a lot but we still have a lot of issues to address

Players and coaches need to believe that they can be successful - they are not playing with that attitude - big changes are coming

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Postby The Hogster » Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:26 pm

The top 10 QBs in the NFL this year based on Passer Rating with their respective draft positions:


Aaron Rodgers 24th of 1st Round
Drew Brees 32nd Pick of the then 2nd Round
Tom Brady 199th of 6th Round
Tony Romo Undrafted (255th)
Matthew Stafford 1st Pick Round 1
Matt Schuab 90th pick of Round 3
Eli Manning 1st pick Round 1
Matt Ryan 3rd Pick Round 1
Alex Smith 1st pick Round 1
Ben Roethlesberger 11th pick of Round 1

Now, Tom Brady & Romo are exceptions rather than the norm. One was drafted 199th overall (Brady) and the other was undrafted. Because 254 were drafted the year Romo entered the NFL, I assigned him a draft position of 255.

With Brady & Romo included in this analysis, the average draft position of the 10 highest rated QBs in the NFL this season is 61st overall. That would be a late 2nd Round pick.

If you take Brady & Romo out considering they're rare exceptions to this "Franchise QB" perception/rule/whatever you want to call it, then the average draft position is 16th overall--a mid first round pick.

Put simply, you do not have hold the #1 overall pick to land a "Franchise QB." Of these top 10 players only 3 of them were the 1st overall pick in that year's draft. 7 of them were not drafted in the first 10 picks. And, 4 of them were not even drafted in the First Round.

Year in and Year out, fans in particular--many of whom don't even watch College Football enough to have an educated opinion--get all worked up over the Top 1 or 2 guys drafted. It's a ridiculous cycle of emotion. Meanwhile, successful franchises load up on talent and add a QB the proper way--by not reaching for them and allowing them to succeed by building a good TEAM around them.

Maybe logic isn't everyone's strong suit, but at some point, maybe you fans who plop down 16 Sundays every year, for the last 20 years to watch a bad team get beat--should realize that we are not 1 player from being good.
Right now, we aren't a good enough team to give away picks to move up and take one of the Top 2 QBS. Why people don't understand this is beyond me.
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Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:09 pm

We don't have the luxury of drafting a later round Brady and sitting and grooming him. Most if not all those qbs did that weren't in the top half of round one. While I agree we can find a qb in any round as your stats back up... The thing is finding a guy ready to go usually means top ten. We don't have a vet to lead the team while our 2nd rounder holds the clip board and for that reason I support getting the best at the position we can.
That said I don't know who shanny has in his crosshairs, none of us do. Remember the "shannaplan" also involved trading picks for an older Mcnugget so don't put trading pick to move down out of the question. He HAS done it before to get HIS guy.
Pretty much can't wait to see what happens and who's taking the snaps next year.
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...and yet ANOTHER record setting performance by "RG3 the third"!!!!
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Postby Redskin in Canada » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:30 pm

The Hogster wrote:Year in and Year out, fans in particular--many of whom don't even watch College Football enough to have an educated opinion--get all worked up over the Top 1 or 2 guys drafted. It's a ridiculous cycle of emotion. Meanwhile, successful franchises load up on talent and add a QB the proper way--by not reaching for them and allowing them to succeed by building a good TEAM around them.

Amen.

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Postby GoSkins » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:37 pm

SkinsJock wrote:
Deadskins wrote:... you're telling me we have so many holes we can't become competetive in this one off-season? I've read many posts where you've said we will be a playoff team next year. For the last two off-seasons we've been filling holes. Now we have a solid base, and I think this off-season we can finally finish the job, and get back to the level we all want to be. This year we need to get a top tier QB, and get some solid depth. But other than QB, we don't really have any glaring needs. I would like to get some good defensive backs, and a couple of solid offensive linemen out of the draft and free agency, but that is certainly doable in one year. Are you saying it isn't?


I still think that we will make the playoffs in 2012
this is based on the improvement we will have PLUS the other teams in the NFC East that we get to play 6 times

I am concerned about the quality of QBs available (free agency +the draft), we will have improved play from the QB, but ...

we need to keep building - this franchise has little depth on both lines and many positions of need

we will be in the playoffs but we're a little further away from having a consistently competitive product on the field

we need a very good QB and to continue to build this team - we're most likely NOT getting our future great QB this year

STICK WITH THE PLAN



If we don't get a true level 1 QB this year then it's likely we will be behind the Eagles and Giants next year. That means no playoffs and probably 8-8 season. Then we won't be in a position to draft a level 1 QB in 2013 either. The time is now; unless you want the team to at be a mediocre 8-8, 9-7 maybe 10-6 at best squad. I suspect one of the key reasons Gibbs left the last time was because he realized Campbell wasn't the answer and it would take poor W-L records to get a top pick to draft a level 1 QB.

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Postby Red_One43 » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:00 pm

In 1983, the Colts drafted John Elway, but traded him to the Broncos after he said that he wouldn't play for them. The Colts got Chris Hinton, the Broncos' 1983 1st round choice (future multiple pro bowler), QB Mark Hermann (limited action with the Colts later traded to the Chargers), and the Broncos #1 in 1984. Even with the compensation for Elway, the Colts could not become perennial winners. Under the likes of QBs Pagel, George, Chandler, Trudeau and Harbaugh, they never won more than 9 games (The did just miss the Super Bowl in 1996 in a loss to the Steelers in the AFC Championship). It wasn't until Manning arrived in 1998 did the Colts begin to become a stable winning franchise which is what the Shannies want to be - a perennial winner - not an up and down franchise. I get why the Colts felt that they needed to trade Elway, but my point is without a gifted QB like Elway, the Colts could not sustain a winning franchise.

For the Lions, they couldn't even win. With a healthy Stafford, it looks like the Lions are on their way to being a consistent winner - the key is the QB position for them as well - A healthy Stafford means play-offs.

This is the year to get our QB! Today's NFL more than in the past is about the QB!!! Look at the recent examples of the Colts and Lions. Trade Up! Up! UP! and get a smart, strong armed, mobile QB in RGIII!

Colts records prior to Manning.

1982 0 8 1
1983 7 9 0
1984 4 12 0
1985 5 11 0
1986 3 13 0
1987 9 6 0
1988 9 7 0
1989 8 8 0
1990 7 9 0
1991 1 15 0
1992 9 7 0
1993 4 12 0
1994 8 8 0
1995 9 7 0
1986 9 7 0
1997 3 13 0
1998 3 13 0 Manning Arrives
1999 13 3 0
2000 10 6 0 Consecutive 10 win season

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/

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Postby Kruncher » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:30 pm

FRNCHISE QBs

Peyton Manning
Eli Manning
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Ben Roethlisberger

Wut do all thes QBs have in common? They have hardware some multiple pieces. QB is the most important position on the team hands down.

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