Leverage

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Postby 1niksder » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:27 pm

And the Colts can count the money that they saved... on a cash basis, the Colts would save $35.4 million (a $28 million option payment plus a $7.4 million base salary) in 2012 and $63.6 million over the next four years. That more than covers what Luck will cost. As far as the cap and dead money goes... Releasing Peyton takes his 2012 cap charge from 17M down to 10.4M (6.6M savings)

The Option bonus was the leverage.

What's the odds Peyton gets half of what he gave up for 2012 without even talking about a restructure?
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Postby The Hogster » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:51 am

1niksder wrote:And the Colts can count the money that they saved... on a cash basis, the Colts would save $35.4 million (a $28 million option payment plus a $7.4 million base salary) in 2012 and $63.6 million over the next four years. That more than covers what Luck will cost. As far as the cap and dead money goes... Releasing Peyton takes his 2012 cap charge from 17M down to 10.4M (6.6M savings)

The Option bonus was the leverage.

What's the odds Peyton gets half of what he gave up for 2012 without even talking about a restructure?


His chances are excellent. Plus, He didn't give money up. The Colts decided not to pay it. But, if indications are correct, that he's throwing like an NFL QB, then he's going to get a 3-Year deal with a lot of guaranteed money. More importantly, he's going to dictate where he goes, and have the power to choose a situation where he wasn't being phased out in favor of a younger version of himself. A restructure served no purpose other than to benefit the Colts--which is why he didn't do it, like I said. Now, he's an UFA--with a huge upside to offer a team. And, let's not forget the money that Manning will generate for his new team. I expect it to be the NY Jets, or the Dolphins. Peyton's leverage was that he didn't need to do anything to force the Colts hand--much like the article posted prior said.

Now Peyton can wish the Colts 'Good Luck'
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Postby 1niksder » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:59 pm

The Hogster wrote:
His chances are excellent. Plus, He didn't give money up. The Colts decided not to pay it.


He had a contract with $63M left on it, including $28M he knew he wasn't going to get, now he's hoping to sign a contract. The Colts decided not to pay because they had ALL the leverage.

The Hogster wrote: But, if indications are correct, that he's throwing like an NFL QB, then he's going to get a 3-Year deal with a lot of guaranteed money.


Indication from what? A cell phone video from the the opposite side of the field? A video that wasn't a continuous stream, that showed one pass over 35 yards and no idea of the velocity or touch on the passes? The only indications I saw was his ability to throw down field has improved from his ability to do the same thing three months ago. He'll get a chance to actually work out for teams now that he's a free agent. He might get a few offers with a bunch of incentives but nothing like what he could have got from a team that gave him $26M last year for doing nothing, had he tried to work something with them.

The Hogster wrote: More importantly, he's going to dictate where he goes, and have the power to choose a situation where he wasn't being phased out in favor of a younger version of himself.


Not at 36 years of age he won't, he'll go to a team that is looking to win now and he'll be a after-thought in a few years, with way less than a $63M contract.

The Hogster wrote: A restructure served no purpose other than to benefit the Colts--which is why he didn't do it, like I said.


A option to restructure would have given PM a little bit of leverage if the restructure could have saved the Colts some cap space.... converting one fourth of the option bonus into a signing bonus and a guaranteed based in 2012 would have put more than $15M in his pocket. Instead all he has now is a opportunity to work out for teams, hope he passes those team's physicals and get a offer.


The Hogster wrote:Now, he's an UFA--with a huge upside to offer a team.


That's what everybody hitting the market next week thinks and hopes suitor teams will think. In the end it's still just hope.


The Hogster wrote: And, let's not forget the money that Manning will generate for his new team.


And that money he generates for a new team helps the new team, what does it do for Manning? About as much as not talking to th Colts did I'd say


The Hogster wrote:I expect it to be the NY Jets, or the Dolphins.


Neither team is going to give him $63M over 4 years unless it's backloaded, meaning they won't payout the last few years wihout re-working it in a few years..... He'll be even closer to 40 by then


The Hogster wrote:Peyton's leverage was that he didn't need to do anything to force the Colts hand--much like the article posted prior said.

The Colts leverage was take less or get nothing here Mr. Manning. In the end the Colts will move on as planned with Luck and Peyton will simply move out.

The Hogster wrote:Now Peyton can wish the Colts 'Good Luck'


They'll need it... And Peyton needs to find a new job.

Time will tell... but Manning won't get anywhere near what he would have gotten in Indy anywhere else, he'll be LUCKY to get have the value of the 4yrs/$63M he just LOST
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Postby The Hogster » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:50 pm

Dude, I posted an article from Andrew Brandt who is a Lecturer in Sports Business at the Wharton School at UPenn. He teaches Sports Law and Negotiations at an Ivy League School AND has experience as an agent and attorney in the National Football League. In that article, he explains in plain English why Peyton had all the leverage. And, he was right. Like I said all along. And, like Tom Condon did. You wanted him to restructure--which is why you do what you do. But at some point, you have to realize that 2+ 2 is 4 no matter how long and hard you yell otherwise.

Give it a rest. You're wrong again. Yet you think you can post incessantly to change that fact. I tried to help you understand what leverage means here. Sit back, eat crow, and watch Peyton Manning get paid and go to a team that is a contender--not a rebuilding scrap job with Andrew Luck at QB. :lol: You can't be as dense as your posts suggest. A restructure was unwise which is why it wasn't done. Send Tom Condon an email, and maybe he'll let you learn why in the coming days.

In the meantime, here are more facts for you to ignore from sources other than you. This is from Andrew Brandt.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-br ... 95974.html
Jim Irsay has turned the decision on whether Peyton Manning stays with the Colts into its own reality show/soap opera. Unfortunately for Irsay, he is not the party with leverage in this negotiation.
My sense is Manning will have several teams interested despite his recent medical issues
. And those options may include the Redskins and Dolphins, two teams with ownership history showing a willingness to pay a premium for name brands.

Options create leverage, and leverage creates large guaranteed contracts. Will that guarantee exceed the $28 million Manning is schedule to make? That's a good question, but my sense is it would be close.


Whatever you say now is moot. We debated this before we had the benefit of hindsight. I told you what would happen, and I'm telling you again now. Give it up. Peyton is about to get paid--A LOT. He was never going to see the remainder of the Colts deal. And, with the turn of events (cleaning house, getting #1 pick) you can't craft an intelligent reason why Manning would have even wanted to stay. Meanwhile, Peyton Manning is already in Miami where Steven Ross is already ready to make it rain Millions on Peyton.

Adam Archuletta II :roll:

If you don't believe me, all you have to do is read, or turn on your TV. Step outside of your own opinion for once. There's some pretty cool stuff going on around you if you just open your eyes.
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Postby 1niksder » Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:40 pm

He's got the options to find a lesser paying job in a town away from where he's been for more than a decade or he can retire. Those options replace the options of trying to save talk to his employer of more than five years about keeping his job or getting fired.

He had better options when he didn't have any leverage. You don't understand and won't admit it if you did. You can quote who you want and post as many resumes of those that you think are stating facts when they're simply doing the same thing we are (stating their OPINION). I wasn't the one that brought the post back up after the Colts said they weren't paying the $28M... everybody knows he wasn't getting the $28M. Now what does he have? Hope... that's it... hope he can throw like he use to, hope he'll get a offer from a team he really wants to play for... He doesn't need the money so it won't matter to him but in the end that's what it'll be about and he left most of it in Indy.

Get back to me AFTER he's signed something close to what he won't be getting what he would have with the Colts. If he doesn't get at least what his release saved the Colts this season then it'll be obvious he should have at least talked to them... Even if he had simply did it to call Irsay's bluff.

Time will tell
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Postby The Hogster » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:33 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I just heard a weird rumor that you're not kidding.

:shock:
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Postby Deadskins » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:57 am

The Hogster wrote:Dude, I posted an article from Andrew Brandt who is a Lecturer in Sports Business at the Wharton School at UPenn. He teaches Sports Law and Negotiations at an Ivy League School AND has experience as an agent and attorney in the National Football League. In that article, he explains in plain English why Peyton had all the leverage. And, he was right. Like I said all along. And, like Tom Condon did. You wanted him to restructure--which is why you do what you do. But at some point, you have to realize that 2+ 2 is 4 no matter how long and hard you yell otherwise.

Give it a rest. You're wrong again. Yet you think you can post incessantly to change that fact. I tried to help you understand what leverage means here. Sit back, eat crow, and watch Peyton Manning get paid and go to a team that is a contender--not a rebuilding scrap job with Andrew Luck at QB. :lol: You can't be as dense as your posts suggest. A restructure was unwise which is why it wasn't done. Send Tom Condon an email, and maybe he'll let you learn why in the coming days.

In the meantime, here are more facts for you to ignore from sources other than you. This is from Andrew Brandt.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-br ... 95974.html
Jim Irsay has turned the decision on whether Peyton Manning stays with the Colts into its own reality show/soap opera. Unfortunately for Irsay, he is not the party with leverage in this negotiation.
My sense is Manning will have several teams interested despite his recent medical issues
. And those options may include the Redskins and Dolphins, two teams with ownership history showing a willingness to pay a premium for name brands.

Options create leverage, and leverage creates large guaranteed contracts. Will that guarantee exceed the $28 million Manning is schedule to make? That's a good question, but my sense is it would be close.


Whatever you say now is moot. We debated this before we had the benefit of hindsight. I told you what would happen, and I'm telling you again now. Give it up. Peyton is about to get paid--A LOT. He was never going to see the remainder of the Colts deal. And, with the turn of events (cleaning house, getting #1 pick) you can't craft an intelligent reason why Manning would have even wanted to stay. Meanwhile, Peyton Manning is already in Miami where Steven Ross is already ready to make it rain Millions on Peyton.

Adam Archuletta II :roll:

If you don't believe me, all you have to do is read, or turn on your TV. Step outside of your own opinion for once. There's some pretty cool stuff going on around you if you just open your eyes.

First of all, that quote from Brandt is over two weeks old. Secondly, you don't even understand what Brandt is saying. He's saying that once the Colts cut Peyton, THEN he will have leverage. Thirdly, even he is questioning whether or not Peyton could recoup the lost income. He says it's a good question, but he feels that the new offers might come close. Lastly, just because Condon did not negotiate with the Colts doesn't mean he didn't think that might have been an option, or ever council Manning that he should consider that. Perhaps Peyton want's out of Indy and told Condon not to negotiate. :idea: But you could never consider that, right? :roll:
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Postby The Hogster » Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:33 pm

@Deadskins

DUH genius. You obviously haven't read this thread. Not that I expected you to before commenting though. I posted the article on Febuary 23rd when it came out. And, I understand quite well what he is saying. If you had a basic grasp of tense you would understand the following quote from Brandt:

Brandt wrote [b]Two Weeks Ago: [/b]

Unfortunately for Irsay, he is not the party with leverage in this negotiation.


The article was written 2 weeks ago. The word IS means presently. We learned this in elementary school. Accordingly, he was saying Peyton was the party with leverage at the time he wrote the article--which was before he was released. As for whether Peyton didn't want to stay in Indy, that's been my point that he didn't. Thanks for making it for me. I'm sure you didn't mean to because to you guys you look at the poster rather than the post in order to decide which side of the facts you come down on. :lol: Geez this is sad.

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Postby Deadskins » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:30 pm

@ the Hogster
Yeah, I read it when you posted it two and a half weeks ago too. And my opinion was the same then. Seems you are the one who doesn't understand tense.

My sense is Manning will have several teams interested despite his recent medical issues. And those options may include the Redskins and Dolphins... Options create leverage.

See, he was saying that once Peyton has options, then he will get the leverage. At the time he said it, Peyton didn't yet have those options. Do you get it now?

Also, I love how you didn't address my other points. Typical Hogster BS :roll:
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Postby Deadskins » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:31 pm

@ the Hogster
Yeah, I read it when you posted it two and a half weeks ago too. And my opinion was the same then. Seems you are the one who doesn't understand tense.

My sense is Manning will have several teams interested despite his recent medical issues. And those options may include the Redskins and Dolphins... Options create leverage.

See, he was saying that once Peyton has those options, then he will get the leverage. At the time he said it, Peyton didn't yet have those options. Do you get it now?

Also, I love how you didn't address my other points. Typical Hogster BS :roll:
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Postby The Hogster » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:44 pm

Deadskins wrote:@ the Hogster
Yeah, I read it when you posted it two and a half weeks ago too. And my opinion was the same then. Seems you are the one who doesn't understand tense.

My sense is Manning will have several teams interested despite his recent medical issues. And those options may include the Redskins and Dolphins... Options create leverage.

See, he was saying that once Peyton has those options, then he will get the leverage. At the time he said it, Peyton didn't yet have those options. Do you get it now?

Also, I love how you didn't address my other points. Typical Hogster BS :roll:


No dude. Read this really slowly. Let it sink in, and try not to confuse yourself.

Brandt wrote:

Unfortunately for Irsay, he is not the party with leverage in this negotiation.


THIS NEGOTIATION. Meaning the one between Peyton & Irsay--just like the sentence says in plain English. The subject of the sentence is "Irsay"--remember that from elementary school? The subject usually comes in the front of the sentence--thus when he says "this" in the second clause, he's talking about the negotiation with Irsay.

Read it again. A third time if need be. It doesn't get much plainer than that. Brandt is saying what I and everyone else in the world has been. Peyton had the leverage in the negotiation with the Colts because he didn't have to do anything. There was no reason for him to take less money to stay in Indy.

He could simply sit back and wait for Irsay to hold em or fold em. The team had already been blown up. And, they have the #1 pick. He didn't want to restructure to stay in a rebuild with Luck. For what? What was he gonna do, have them re-hire the staff & FO and ask them to trade the #1 pick to contend? Common sense. This may have been different if the Colts had the 20th pick. But, you can't ignore the fact that they're drafting Luck.

He and his agent knew that once he was an UFA, he would have suitors. And, yes having options in free agency creates leverage, but not IN THIS NEGOTIATION. It creates leverage with the other teams genius. For instance, knowing that the Jets and Broncos are interested gives Manning LEVERAGE with the Dolphins. He can create a bidding war even though he's likely got a preference in mind.

Good lord dude. ](*,)

As for your point on Manning not wanting to stay--DUH. I already acknowledged you for making my point for me. That's what I've been saying all along. That's a part of the argument against restructuring. Why would he want to stay there? You didn't make any other points to address.
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Postby Deadskins » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:19 pm

The Hogster wrote:Brandt wrote:

Unfortunately for Irsay, he is not the party with leverage in this negotiation.


THIS NEGOTIATION. Meaning the one between Peyton & Irsay--just like the sentence says in plain English.

ROTFALMAO
Damn it's hilarious how you constantly post stuff that directly contradicts the point you are trying to make. Your point all along has been that there are no negotiations between Manning and Irsay (Colts) because it would give the Colts the leverage. Now, in an effort to save face, you grasp at the straw of saying Brandt meant something by that first sentence, which the rest of the quote blatantly shows he did not mean.

And as for the Condon business, you were trying to make the specious argument that because Condon wasn't negotiating with the Colts, it was because it wouldn't be in Peyton's interests to do so. I said back then that it was true Condon wasn't negotiating, but not for the reasons you thought. You never even considered the option that Condon might not be negotiating with the Colts because Peyton told him not to. Don't make me dig up the quotes, or you'll just get embarrassed again.
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Postby The Hogster » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:49 pm

Deadskins wrote:
The Hogster wrote:Brandt wrote:

Unfortunately for Irsay, he is not the party with leverage in this negotiation.


THIS NEGOTIATION. Meaning the one between Peyton & Irsay--just like the sentence says in plain English.

ROTFALMAO
Damn it's hilarious how you constantly post stuff that directly contradicts the point you are trying to make. Your point all along has been that there are no negotiations between Manning and Irsay (Colts) because it would give the Colts the leverage. Now, in an effort to save face, you grasp at the straw of saying Brandt meant something by that first sentence, which the rest of the quote blatantly shows he did not mean.

And as for the Condon business, you were trying to make the specious argument that because Condon wasn't negotiating with the Colts, it was because it wouldn't be in Peyton's interests to do so. I said back then that it was true Condon wasn't negotiating, but not for the reasons you thought. You never even considered the option that Condon might not be negotiating with the Colts because Peyton told him not to. Don't make me dig up the quotes, or you'll just get embarrassed again.


Here's the shovel. While you're digging, you will find that I said that Peyton should not offer to restructure his contract as 1niksder suggested. The term "negotiation" does not imply anything. I can negotiate a release, an extension, to push back the date for the bonus, or any number of things.

What I said was Peyton has all of the leverage because he doesn't have to do any of the above. He could just do nothing and become a free agent. Look up restructure, then take a nap. Let that soak in. Then next week, we will go over negotiation. Just your past 2 posts show that you can't even make one coherent argument flow from one post to the next. Now you're jumping around like a dog on hot pavement and it's pretty hilarious. Dance Deadskins! Or since you prefer to dig, go ahead and dig a hole. Bury yourself. :lol:
Last edited by The Hogster on Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Deadskins » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:51 pm

ROTFALMAO
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Postby The Hogster » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:52 pm

Deadskins Ladies & Gentlemen. =D> And for his next trick, he'll make even less sense! :P :P
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