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riggofan
Hog
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 2949
Location: Montclair, Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| frankcal20 wrote: | | Personally I like what Wise wrote. Some folks don't like the idea because everything said there is true. There is no argument that anyone can make that says that a college player coming out is a guarantee especially when you look at the LACK of success that 1st round QBs have had. You can make the same as guys who were drafted in the 1st who were successful. It's a crap shoot. You just hope that your evaluators get the talent projection right and make sure that you're putting the right player in the right system with the right components around him. That's where you strike GOLD. But if there's one problem with the team (ie - Rams) then you're no better than we are right now. |
I don't know, so what's the alternative? We bring in Kyle Orton and continue to plod along as a mediocre team? I know there are other alternatives but they all pretty much add up to that playing in the NFC East.
The RGIII trade whether or not its a crap shoot is taking a shot at greatness. Its showing some guts and manning up. If the Redskins coaching staff believes this guy has at least a 70% chance of succeeding, then freaking go for it. I'm not going to listen to Mike Wise get his panties all in a bunch and nod along in agreement.
You can't seriously look at RGIII, the total package and tell me the guy isn't special. He's a freak athlete, a competitor, confident, mature and super intelligent. We're not rolling the dice on Jamarcus Russell. |
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emoses14
Hog
Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 1506
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:43 am Post subject: |
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The portion of the wise article that I take exception with is the hypothesis that it is near sighted and wrong to evaluate a player, RG3 in this case, as worth the calculated risk of giving up x number of picks in y rounds over this and next year. Mike Wise is making the incorrect argument that falling in love with a college player is the same move that Snyder/Redskins have made in the past. Please, pretty please, tell me the last time that Snyder fell in love with a college prospect, over valued, over payed and left the team in shambles because of that move?
He's also making the flawed argument that getting RG3 is somehow the anti-build for the future move. How is that exactly? Because it means we're not taking an offensive lineman? Moving back in the draft to acquire more picks? Drafting a receiver @6? THe presumption that you must build THE ENTIRE team first and then go get a quarterback is as wrong/right as any other alternative, including getting the quarterback first. The fact is Shanahan has been building the team and will, presumably, continue to do so through FA for much of what Wise points out. The team has begun to build. Who the hell is Mike Wise to say that now isn't the time to get the driver for the car they're building?
No one is suggesting that RG3 will win the superbowl next year. The suggestion is that given the pieces the skins already have in place, their draft position this year (not their make believe one next year), the overall structure of how their process shakes out means that consideration of moving up to take a QB they deem worth while is DECIDELY in no way shape or form, a reversion to the deion sanders, bruce smith, stubblefield, archuleta, barrow, trotter, hayneworthles moves NOR is it mortgaging the future. As 1niksder pointed out under the rumored scenario, pretty sure we'd still have a full compliment of draft picks to work with.
Just because Wise is tired of hearing how good RG3 is doesn't mean he actually isn't good.
The argument that Barkely is better and we should build this year in the draft and then take Barkely next year is so preposterous its laughable. Let's take all of Wise's comments as gospel. We draft Amazing: Tackle/guard/receiver/ whatever Wise thinks this year without trading up to take the "NEW SHINY TOY." Do you suppose that nets more wins or less wins that we had last year? No matter what the trade pieces we have in place, it will be more difficult to trade up from lower draft position (say 12 or 14) than our current (6) to get a QB, Barkely, whose SO CLEARLY better than RG3. Then we might actually be discussing a Ricky Williams trade scenario.
Not to mention Wise ignores the hypocrisy in his own article. So let me get this straight: We should NOT trade up to get a QB this year, because we are not 1 player away and someone wins the Heisman trophy every year, BUT we should trade up, at a presumably steeper cost, next year for a player who may win the heisman trophy? Never mind the myriad of possibilities of what may happen to that player between now and then. I hate to break it to Mr. Wise, but they do tackle in college and people do get injured (smug remark made in response to Wise's comment "I hate to break it to everyone but someone wins the heisman trophy every year.")
The fact is Wise is one of the sports writers that's only comfortable with the conventional wisdom when it mirrors his own thoughts. Fair enough, most peole are. RG3 apparently doesn't fit that for him, so forces a square peg argument (Here comes the old snyder thinking, we're not one player away, etc.) into a round hole situation (you've got to take a calculated risk to get that perhaps once in a lifetime player). He either doesn't believe RG3 is that good, doesn't think its the prudent move to go get him now. If so, just say that and give legitimate direct reasons, not these derivative soap box arguments that don't fit the situation. |
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SouthLondonRedskin
Hog
Joined: 09 Jan 2012
Posts: 1113
Location: South London, UK
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Well said! |
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frankcal20
^^^^^^^
Joined: 24 Mar 2004
Posts: 8965
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| I see your point but I can't cay I agree with everything he's saying but I do understand the phylosophy. You're also not factoring in that next year there will be more QB's to choose from that the true 2 first round worthy Qb's in this year draft. |
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emoses14
Hog
Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 1506
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| riggofan wrote: | | frankcal20 wrote: | | Personally I like what Wise wrote. Some folks don't like the idea because everything said there is true. There is no argument that anyone can make that says that a college player coming out is a guarantee especially when you look at the LACK of success that 1st round QBs have had. You can make the same as guys who were drafted in the 1st who were successful. It's a crap shoot. You just hope that your evaluators get the talent projection right and make sure that you're putting the right player in the right system with the right components around him. That's where you strike GOLD. But if there's one problem with the team (ie - Rams) then you're no better than we are right now. |
I don't know, so what's the alternative? We bring in Kyle Orton and continue to plod along as a mediocre team? I know there are other alternatives but they all pretty much add up to that playing in the NFC East.
The RGIII trade whether or not its a crap shoot is taking a shot at greatness. Its showing some guts and manning up. If the Redskins coaching staff believes this guy has at least a 70% chance of succeeding, then freaking go for it. I'm not going to listen to Mike Wise get his panties all in a bunch and nod along in agreement.
You can't seriously look at RGIII, the total package and tell me the guy isn't special. He's a freak athlete, a competitor, confident, mature and super intelligent. We're not rolling the dice on Jamarcus Russell. |
Now, if that was who we were talking about trading up to draft, I still wouldn't agree with Wise's article, but I'd at least understand the genesis of the argument. |
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emoses14
Hog
Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 1506
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| frankcal20 wrote: | | I see your point but I can't cay I agree with everything he's saying but I do understand the phylosophy. You're also not factoring in that next year there will be more QB's to choose from that the true 2 first round worthy Qb's in this year draft. |
You're right. I did not factor in that there could be more than 2 first round worthy candidates in next year's draft. To be fair to me, I don't think Wise did either (how's that for a self serving caveat?). |
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KazooSkinsFan
kazoo
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 10021
Location: Kazmania
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| frankcal20 wrote: | | Personally I like what Wise wrote. Some folks don't like the idea because everything said there is true. There is no argument that anyone can make that says that a college player coming out is a guarantee |
Wise is an idiot. No one is making that argument. Typical of his stupid columns. Football is a game, winning requires skill through the organization. That there is no guarantee is not only a "no duh" argument, but it's the POINT of the whole thing. |
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KazooSkinsFan
kazoo
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 10021
Location: Kazmania
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| riggofan wrote: | I don't know, so what's the alternative? We bring in Kyle Orton and continue to plod along as a mediocre team?
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The RGIII trade whether or not its a crap shoot is taking a shot at greatness |
Bam! Now that's what I'm talking about. You sir, get it...
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riggofan
Hog
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 2949
Location: Montclair, Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| KazooSkinsFan wrote: | | frankcal20 wrote: | | Personally I like what Wise wrote. Some folks don't like the idea because everything said there is true. There is no argument that anyone can make that says that a college player coming out is a guarantee |
Wise is an idiot. No one is making that argument. Typical of his stupid columns. Football is a game, winning requires skill through the organization. That there is no guarantee is not only a "no duh" argument, but it's the POINT of the whole thing. |
Not to mention that he ALWAYS takes the contrary view. He's got three hours to fill on his radio show today. |
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riggofan
Hog
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 2949
Location: Montclair, Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| KazooSkinsFan wrote: | | riggofan wrote: | I don't know, so what's the alternative? We bring in Kyle Orton and continue to plod along as a mediocre team?
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The RGIII trade whether or not its a crap shoot is taking a shot at greatness |
Bam! Now that's what I'm talking about. You sir, get it...
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Thanks man!!!
I don't mean to knock anybody for being reluctant to make the trade up - I totally get it. It took me a while to come around to this opinion myself. But RGIII looks like as good a bet as we'll have the chance to make anytime soon. |
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dbfan2007
newbie
Joined: 29 Feb 2012
Posts: 11
Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| emoses14 wrote: | | 1niksder wrote: | | dbfan2007 wrote: | | Most scenarios I see have Washington giving up too much. I like RGIII, but I still think it's a lot to risk. No one wants another Ricky Williams scenario. |
It's swapping #1s, a 2nd and maybe a fourth plus a #1 next year.
These aren't the same Redskins... the bottom line is they have 9 picks going into the draft (they won't get compensation for losing players like Carlos Rogers, and Andre Carter but the NFL will only award about 26 picks to teams that lost more players than they gained in free agency last season. The remaining compensatory picks go to the teams at the top of the draft order (8 picks are projected to be left over and the Skins will get one) So thy are giving up two picks and will make 7 selections. If every team kept all their picks and every tam used all of their picks, every team would make seven selections. They have 8 picks as of now in 2013 trading one now will leave them with  seven... nothing like Ricky Williams and not as much as the Gnats gave up for Peyton's lil' bro |
But. . . But. . . "They're giving up too much! "They're reverting back to the old washington redskins under Snyder of win now at any cost! Stop the insanity!" (h/t Mike wise http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/robert-griffin-iii-has-redskins-fans-heading-for-a-relapse/2012/02/29/gIQAtsxYiR_story.html) . Getting RG3 would be GIVING UP ON the build through the draft plan of Shannahan!!!! It doesn't matter that the reality of the trade will probably be closer to what you just said, leaving us with still more draft picks than any year under cerrato. Stop confusing the opinions and emotional diarrhea with your FACTS!
Yet again, the backlash over the alleged compensation given by the 'Skins to move up to 2 and get RG3 is being cast in the most negative light possible, seemingly for no other reason than its the 'Skins. Its not even a done deal for christ's sake! As you've put it, to get a franchise changing quarterback and STILL HAVE 7 PICKS this year AND NEXT YEAR is amazing. |
You're swapping 1sts, which is only moving up 4 spots. Then giving up a second, fourth, and first.
I'm just implying that this is a lot to give up on a guy who could be a bust. Vince Young was this great athlete. People wanted Houston to draft him. Some also wanted Houston to get Reggie Bush. At the time, you'd be crazy to think Jay Cutler would have more success than Young and Leinart. RGIII isn't a savior. I have no clue about the Skins of old you're talking about, so that's irrelevant. I like RGIII, but I'm not sure where he turned into a guy who's a #2 overall pick. He's a fast quarterback that played in a pass happy conference. |
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langleyparkjoe
**LPJ**
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 5993
Location: Langley Park, MD *Tick Tock*
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| 1niksder wrote: | | dbfan2007 wrote: | | Most scenarios I see have Washington giving up too much. I like RGIII, but I still think it's a lot to risk. No one wants another Ricky Williams scenario. |
It's swapping #1s, a 2nd and maybe a fourth plus a #1 next year.
These aren't the same Redskins... the bottom line is they have 9 picks going into the draft (they won't get compensation for losing players like Carlos Rogers, and Andre Carter but the NFL will only award about 26 picks to teams that lost more players than they gained in free agency last season. The remaining compensatory picks go to the teams at the top of the draft order (8 picks are projected to be left over and the Skins will get one) So thy are giving up two picks and will make 7 selections. If every team kept all their picks and every tam used all of their picks, every team would make seven selections. They have 8 picks as of now in 2013 trading one now will leave them with seven... nothing like Ricky Williams and not as much as the Gnats gave up for Peyton's lil' bro |
I read all of that and walked away from it like...  
To heck with it, I'll just wait till draft day.  |
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The Hogster
#######
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 7002
Location: Washington D.C.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| If Im St Louis, I'd rather have the Skins 2013 1st. Than Cle's 2012 22nd |
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Mississippiskinsfan2
Hog
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 290
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| The Hogster wrote: | | If Im St Louis, I'd rather have the Skins 2013 1st. Than Cle's 2012 22nd |
If Im St Louis, I would just give the skins the 2nd pick because I would feel sorry for the redskins fans for all the bs they have had to put up with for the last 20 yrs |
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KazooSkinsFan
kazoo
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 10021
Location: Kazmania
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| The Hogster wrote: | | If Im St Louis, I'd rather have the Skins 2013 1st. Than Cle's 2012 22nd |
In support of that, the Rams know that even if we manage to improve the overall team we're probably going to start a rookie QB. Even if he's as good as hoped, he's going to struggle as a rookie. |
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