Talk about the Washington Redskins here. Do you bleed burgundy and gold?
markshark84 wrote:PAPDOG67 wrote:markshark84 wrote:PAPDOG67 wrote:markshark84 wrote:Honestly, I don't see Manning coming here. Manning is a very smart guy. Both the Jets and Miami offer him more in terms of supporting cast.
I don't see how Miami or the Jets have any more to offer in terms of personnel than we do. I actually think our roster looks a lot better than the Jets and Miami.
I think your skins fandom is not allowing you to see clearly:
I have no idea how anyone can OBJECTIVELY say we have a better (or even equal) roster to the Jets. That is just straight crazy talk. Offensively, the Jets have arguably (and perhaps more accurately -- clearly) the best OL in football, 2 solid receivers in Holmes and (although aging) Buress along with Kerley who is a solid 3/slot and PR, they have a very good RB (a 1k rusher) in Greene and a solid pass catching RB in Tomlinson, along with a quality TE in Keller. Defensively, the Jets are ranked in the top 5 in yards against per game, although barely ranked above the Skins in points against per game. We have better LBs; they have a better secondary. The DL is difficult to say -- I think we have better ends and the Jets have a better center. That may change with Jenkins. If I had to pick I would say we have the better DL, but the 3-4 roles on the Jets DL and the skins is different. All in all, the Jets have a WAY better OL, better RBs, and better WRs. The skins have the advantage in TE, but that's about it offensively. Defensively, it is close, but the Jets are basically statistically better in every single defensive category.
In addition, the Jets were 8-8, while we were 5-11. Oddly enough, we played a very similar schedule in that each team played 10 games against the same opponents. The only differences were the Jets played Jacksonville, Baltimore, Denver, San Diego, Oakland and KC (combined record of 48-48). We played Arizona, SF, StL, Seattle, Minn, and Carolina (combined record of 39-56). Both the Jets and Skins went 3-3 against non-similar opponents -- meaning the Skins were 2-8 and the Jets were 5-5 against similar opponents. Taking pure wins and loses, the Jets also had a more difficult schedule with an opponents record (taking out the Jets-Skins game) of 123-117; while the skins had an opponents record of 114-126 (and that's after giving their opponents +5 wins due to defeating the skins; if you take out all games against the skins, their opponents had a record of 104-121).
It is clear that the Jets have a much stronger offensive team. In addiiton, since the Jet's OC was recently fired, Peyton can run the show there and call his own plays. That wouldn't be the case in DC. IMHO, the Jets are the best team in the league who need a QB. If Peyton wants to win, he goes to the Jets.
I think the Miami vs. Skins comparison is closer. Offensively, Miami has a decent OL. Some rank their pass blocking OL in the Top 10 (although with +50 sacks I find these rankings to be questionable), while the Skins OL is fairly consistently in the bottom 10 (both passing and rushing). Miami does have one of the best OTs in Long. Miami also has one of the best WRs in the NFL in Marshall. It also doesn't hurt that Wayne has stated that he will go to Miami if Peyton does (he didn't say that about the skins). Davone Bess would also make a great #3/slot WR in the event Wayne was in Miami. Miami also has a 1k rusher in Bush, but I believe that our young rushers are as good if not better -- but the performances of Helu and Royster are speculative given they haven't had a full year of quality play like Bush did. Fasano is also a solid TE, although our TEs are much better.
All in all, the skins have the edge at TE clearly. I would give Miami the edge at WR. RB, IMHO, is a wash, although I believe most would give the RB to Miami (I just have a ton of confidence in Royster and Helu). Although, Manning would most likely love a RB similar to Bush due to his pass catching abilities, so the edge would most likely go to Miami in Peyton's eyes. In terms of OL, Miami also needs another OT and OG -- just like the skins. If Miami signs Manning, they can (and will) address that need in the first round (the skins in that event may do the same, although less likely). Defensively, Miami has a very similar yards against average, but much lower points against average -- so statisically, Miami is better on D.
In terms of opponents -- the skins and miami also played 10 similar games. In non-similar games, the skins went 3-3 and miami went 2-4. This means that in similar games Miami was 4-6, while we were 2-8. Miami's opponent record (not including the skins) was 124-116 (or 119-121 taking away the miami games). The skins opponent record (taking out Miami) was 116-124 (or 111-119 taking away skins games). Taking this blindly, Miami had a better year.
The Miami offense appears better for Peyton in that: (1) the Miami head coach is an offensive guy who DIDN'T call plays -- which allows Peyton to continue doing so as he did in Indy, (2) the RB situation is similar to what he had in Indy, (3) he will get a proven top WR in addition to Wayne, and (4) they can focus on OL in the draft. In DC, Peyton will have to deal with two egos in MS and Snyder. He will also have to work with the HC's son at OC, when we all know Peyton likes to all his own plays.
All in all, I am not sure how an arguement can be made that DC is the best place for Peyton to land outside of receiving the biggest paycheck (although Peyton has stated paycheck isn't important.... ). Speaking of landing, I also heard that Peyton recently landed in Miami airport...
I didn't know you were going to break it down that thoroughly, but props to you. As far as numbers go, I throw most of them out the window. Numbers can be manipulated to suppoert any argument. In looking at specific positions, I think we are right on par with both the NYJ and MIA. I don't know where you get that the Jets have the best Oline in football from? Wayne Hunter's numbers were 2nd worst in the NFL in terms of giving up hit, sack, pressures, and penalties. Slaussen is at best average. Fergusson slightly above. The only stud on that line is Mangold, and if you don't agree with me, go back and watch their game against Baltimore. Our O-line is no bargain, but neither is the Jets. Their WR/TE position I would say is about even with ours. Sure Holems is nice, but he's a head case and far from a # 1. Burress is a FA, and Keller is league average. After tha, they have 0 to work with. We have more potential at the WR position with our youth, and are much better at TE assuming we re-sign Davis. As far as the RB position goes, Green is terrible (beleive me I watch the Jets every week living in NY) and Tomlinson is gone. I would say we have the edge there, a slight one.
As far as Defense goes the jets may have the most overrated defense in football as far as I'm concerned. They have a nice secondary, and it ends there. They have absolutely 0 pass rush, and must send 5-6 every down if they want to consistently put pressure on the QB. We definitely have a better LB and DL than they do, not even close.
As for Miami, their overall Defense might be slightly better than ours, but its pretty close. Yes, they have Marshall (another head case) and that is about it on offense. Bess is league average. Reggie bush is a scat back who is nice out of the backfield. Yes they have Pouncey, Long and Incognito on the left side of the line, but the right side is atrocious. Colombo needs to be replaced ASAP.
In terms of overall dynamic playmakers on either side of the ball, I would say none of these teams have a plethora of difference makers. The only thing the Jets have going for them in terms of difference makers is they boast the best clear cut CB and C in football, and Miami might have the best LT in football, as well as a top 10 WR. Keep in mind that the Redskins defense appears to be set at this point as well, so they could use most of their draft picks on the offensive side of the ball o help Manning. The Jets have massive holes to fill on defense and the Dolphins have a few as well.
In terms of #s, I agree that most can be malipulated, but if you break them down enough and get rid of some of the extrinsic factors, they can be useful. Regardless, I was not making my offensive personnel evaluations based on stats -- only defense since it is so difficult to evaluate an entire defense....after stating that the Jets and Skins apply their 3-4 differently.
Regardless, I do think you make some valid arguements, but as is typical in politics -- you are merely attacking what the opponent lacks and not providing insight into what the skins actually have. We have 2 unproven (although I love both royster and helu) RBs, one aging and another league avg to slightly above WR, 1 solid TE and one recovering from injury, 1 slightly above avg OT, a mediocre C, and one mediocre OG. Everyone else stinks.
In terms of the Jets OL, they had 3 pro bowlers this year (Ferg, Moore, Mangold). And you are (although a bit of puff added) mostly correct about Hunter -- which is why he is on the trading block. Therefore, a line of 3 pro-bowlers and Slauson -- who I wouldn't mind having on the Skins. They also have Ducasse -- which provides serious depth. Outside of Hunter, their line is VERY good (actually, even with Hunter). In any doubt, it is light years better than ours. Besides, no OL looks good against Bmore. And I remember that Sanchez fumbled the ball like 5 times that game and was holding the ball for days (which is a serious problem for Sanchez). But honestly, I can't think of a better OL (maybe NO). And if Greene is as bad as you say, then the OL must be that much better to be able to open holes for a bad RB who avgs 4.2 a carry. Besides, how many times has the skins line look putride???
For WR, at least the Jets have a clear #1. Personally, I don't think it is debatable that they have a better WR corps....and the opposite for TE.
In terms of playmakers -- I don't agree in that Miami has 2 CLEAR playmakers in Marshall and Bush. The Jets have one in Holmes. We have none.
I also would NEVER say the skins defense is set. We may lose LL, desperately need a second CB, and a pass rushing DE. I woud say that our defense if FAR from complete. We need at least 2 quality starters and maybe 3 if LL goes -- and if he does, that will be a very very serious blow to the secondary. He does more for our CBs than people realize back there.
Regardless, both the Jets and Miami has things to offer on O. The Jets have a top 5 OL (which I don't believe to be debateable), a big play receiver in Holmes and another quality WR, and a 1k yard rusher. Miami has two serious playmakers in Marshall and Bush, they have an adequate OL that will be improved upon via the draft, and a top TE. The skins, on the other hand, have a bottom 10 OL, no playmaking WRs (Gaffney is only slghtly (at best) above avg and Moss is aging and coming of a lackluster season), 2 young but unproven RBs, and 1 quallity TE. Honestly, it is sort of sad when actually typing this.
A few years ago I would agree with you about the JEts O-line. It was top 3. Last year it was horrendous, not even top 10 so that is very debatable. DBrick was adequate at best. He made the pro bowl strictly on his name. The pro bowl is a joke. Ask any Jet fan they will tell you. Moore is above average, but Slaussen and Hunter were beyond awful. The next tackle Greene breaks will be his first. Believe me that the Jets are looking to upgrade their RB position. I disagree that Holmes is a # 1 also. I would say he's more of a # 2. I don't know any team that strictly game plans to stop him. Who is their other quality WR??? I also disagree that the Dolphins have a top TE. Fasano is decent at best.
As far as the Skins go, I will agree with you that our o-line is terrible and needs major upgrading. You are also right that we may need 1 or 2 secondary pieces. I forgot about that. I wouldn't necessarily consider LL a huge loss tho, only because he hasn't played much as it is in the last 2 years, and is not that good in coverage.
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SouthLondonRedskin wrote:the poster wrote:oneman56 wrote:a little off topic but..., everyone saying the Reskins' are not one player away is somewhat funny to me. Would you rate this years Colts team as one player away? Add P. Manning back to that same team and they are a realistically in the SB conversation as proven for his entire career just about....dude is THAT good. A legit QB makes all the difference and makes up for weaknesses in other areas. I'm not suggesting the Skins' are or are not 1 player away but if you have a QB like him and he's healthy you have shot every year IMO.
typical redskin fan comment. particularly here in this part of the offseason, which proves to be the most exciting part of a redskins season.
what variable u didn't include, genius, is that they would win because he's a colt. has always been a colt. 14 years in that offense. that's his team. put him in the line, they would probably win 2 outta every 3 games because that's his comfort zone.
when these broken down old stars leave home and come to Washington, that's where they experience failure. it happens every single time and would happen again here.
you're not getting rg3 though so forget about him....he's a Cleveland brown....and your meaningless win vs the giants at the end of the year cost u him (thank u very much).
you guys will get something like Matt Flynn plus Ryan tannehill. enjoy.
Is there not a forum for Browns fans to sound off on...?!?!? I mean, its a bit rich to come on here giving it large about all the faults with the Redskins when you're a Browns fan!!! Although I guess you must be an expert in recognising struggling teams as you've seen so many....
I grant you that over the last few years the off-season has been the most exciting part of the season for Redskins fans, but that's still better than anything the Browns have to get excited about. I'm just glad you got your team back, and I guess you all are too because that's about as good as it's gonna get for a long while.
I tell you know, and take heed, if the Redskins want RGIII then the Redskins will get RGIII, and there's bugger-all the Browns or anyone else can do about it. So unless you've been talking with Mike Shanahan and he's told you he's not that interested in getting Griffin I'd keep quiet if I were you....
How does that song go Poster....? Hate to say I told you so....
Here It Comes Again: Worst to First Baby!