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The Hogster
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 7002
Location: Washington D.C.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:30 am Post subject: |
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While you Mathletes are debating whether to use a TI-82 or a TI-83 to calculate the picks---keep in mind that we now have RG3 in real life.
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CanesSkins26
Canes Skin
Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 6870
Location: Alexandria, VA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| We had to make the trade. It sucks to give up that many picks for one guy, but we really didn't have much of a choice. The decisions made about qb by Gibbs, Cerrato, and Shanahan left us with little choice and I'm glad that we made the bold move to get RGIII. Now it's up to Shanahan to bring in players, without all our draft picks, to complement our new qb. |
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RayNAustin
Hog
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2312
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:33 am Post subject: Re: 1+1=3 ????? |
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| spenser wrote: | Ok, I know this has been stated before, but dear god someone help me before I go all Hulk Smash on everyone. Can someone, anyone, PLEASE enlighten the media "experts" that we gave up TWO, NOT THREE 1st round picks. Unless I am sorley mistaken, we wlll STILL have a 1st this year... Otherwise we would apparently just be Given RG3 from the NFL at the expense of NO draft pick.
Are we losing THIS years overall 6th pick? YES! BUT, we are GETTING a HIGHER PICK #2 OVERALL THIS FREAKING YEAR. OMG, it really is not rocket science. If I read another article, or hear another radio hack lamenting our "unprecidented THREE 1st rounders" I'm seriously going to freak out. Ok to recap
A. We not only KEEP this years 1st round pick, but in FACT, it is a HIGHER pick than we innitially had.
B. We give up next years 1st = ONE FIRST ROUND PICK
C. We give up our 1st rounder in 2014 = ONE FIRST ROUND PICK
D. If we Add those two numerals togegeer, hang with me now I know this is getting crazy complicatped, we get.... Drum roll please.......
TWO FIRST ROUND PICKS!!! TOTAL. PERIOD. END OF STORY ( I know there is also this years 2nd rounder, but I'm trying to keep it simple for the media experts that get paid large sums of money to disect these things).
Holy Crap, I'm starting a website, ww.oneplusone=TWO.freakingcom
I know the world, nay, the UNIVERSE hates the skins, but OMG is it that hard? really?!?! The answer sadly is.. YES. So Because of all the brain dead idiot blowhards that love the sound of "THREE FIRST ROUNDERS!!" will never get it.... I'm going to break it down this way.
We Traded THREE FIRST ROUNDERS.... FOR...... RG3 AND a FIRST ROUND PICK. Not a bad deal eh?? DOH'
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I think you are having a semantically induced nervous breakdown .... so lie down and take a deep breath. Now isn't that better?
Here's the hard cold truth .... the Redskins "traded", "ponied up" , "coughed up" , "turned loose" , "exchanged" ..... whichever phrase you care to use ... 3 first round draft picks and 1 second rounder in EXCHANGE for the Rams 1st round pick. Obviously the Rams will receive 3-#1s and 1-#2.
When the Redskins go up to the podium and select their chosen player with that #2 overall pick, they will have indeed paid, given up, spent, whatever ... their 2012 1st and 2nd round picks, and the 2013 and 2014 1st round picks ... which makes the statement "The Redskins gave up 3 1st round picks and 1 2nd round pick" an accurate statement.
The Rams, on the receiving end of the deal gained an EXTRA three draft picks ... 2-#1s and 1-#2 for agreeing to allow the Redskins to use their 2nd place overall pick, with the Rams using the Redskins 6th place overall pick.
The "Trade" cost the Redskins an additional 3 draft picks .... but when they choose their player they will be "spending" a total of 4 picks for him.
In summary .... the Redskins will be spending THREE 1st round picks and ONE 2nd round pick .... you can replace "spending" with any adjective you choose. By the same token, the Rams will have "spent" ONE 1st round pick, and will receive THREE 1st round picks and ONE 2nd round pick in exchange.
So, in order to keep folks from having nervous breakdowns over silly semantics .... let's just agree to the statement ... "The Redskins gave up an ADDITIONAL 2=1st rounders and ONE 2nd rounder for the privilege of moving up to the #2 slot in the draft order".
OR ... we could wait until draft day ... let the Rams pick RG3, and then at that very moment trade 3-#1's and 1-#2 for RG3, which would indeed be giving up 1+1+1+1 = 4 total draft picks for that player. |
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RayNAustin
Hog
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2312
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| CanesSkins26 wrote: | | We had to make the trade. It sucks to give up that many picks for one guy, but we really didn't have much of a choice. The decisions made about qb by Gibbs, Cerrato, and Shanahan left us with little choice and I'm glad that we made the bold move to get RGIII. Now it's up to Shanahan to bring in players, without all our draft picks, to complement our new qb. |
I agree with you obviously .... there was simply no choice here ... we had to outbid Cleveland and we did .. and according to the reports, Cleveland then came back with an offer of 3-#1's but it was too late and the deal with the Redskins was done.
People need to understand that the Redskins pulled off a big win here since the Browns had 2 #1's for 2012 but were trying to keep one of them in their deal making ... the Redskins being at a disadvantage made the bolder move first, solidified the deal and out maneuvered the Browns who were in the "pole position" in this race. Kudos to the Redskin FO for pulling this deal off!! I now have renewed faith that the guys in charge really are making good football decisions ... which had been waning a bit.
I think RG3 is a "Michael Vick" type player without the downside Vick brings to the table .... RG3 is far more mature and intelligent .... much better "character" as a person ... a better and more accurate passer, while being almost an equal athlete. With that said, I think Vick has proven to be a real game changer when he's "On" ... and I expect RG3 and his added qualities to show up very early (as in immediately) in being a dynamic game changer for the Redskin's offense .... and it would not surprise me in the least to see him make those contributions quickly.
This kid has an impressive mindset ... maturity beyond his years, and the drive and intelligence to absorb the offense and execute it rapidly. In other words, I think he's got the talent to make Kyle Shanahan look like a genius, and I suspect Kyle is giddy thrilled in anticipation of all of the added dimensions such a mobile and athletic QB can add to his offensive strategy.
And given Kyle's obvious aggressive nature in play calling (nobody is going to mistake him for being conservative), I'd say that RG3 is going to love being a Redskin, and us Redskin fans are in for a wild ride of exciting new Redskin football. |
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The Hogster
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 7002
Location: Washington D.C.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| SMH |
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Colorado Skin Fan
swine
Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:43 am Post subject: |
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However we debate the semantics of it, we will now get to move on after this and stop debating about what to do about being one of the quarterback poor in the NFL (i.e. Those that go into each season with no hope of anything but a first round playoff exit).
Teams lose out in the Manning sweepstakes get to take a major risk on Matt Flynn. Those that are left will be looking around at one another saying what now?
Regardless of the price, I'm glad we won't be one of them like we've been so often in the past.
This FO will do a good job with the remaining picks, play well at free agency, and we will be relevent again. Not having to listen to 3 seasons of pundit criticism of what a joke we have at QB is worht the cost right there... |
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The Hogster
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 7002
Location: Washington D.C.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| We have had high 1st round picks for the better part of the last 15 years. How'd that work out for us? We needed a franchise QB and it looks like we got one. |
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spenser
Hog
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 1029
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I'm better now. Must have been the Tequila.
I think I was just sick of the media sounding so astounded and keep saying we traded 3 1sts when we really traded 2 1sts and USED our own 1st on RG3. Semantics true, but if it were the patriots it would be "oh what a steal for the pats, they used 2 first rounds to target their guy" or something to that effect. Wins will cure all hopefully. |
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RayNAustin
Hog
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2312
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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I was looking at the polls on ESPN ... and people are really illogical.
77% said that the Redskins 'over paid' on the trade.
but then ....
63% said that RG3 will have a better NFL career than Sam Bradford.
then
58% said that the Rams will make the playoffs before the Redskins do.
What has happened to critical thinking and logic?
Clearly to me, the Rams make out great with this deal because they already have their "franchise" QB, so it would have been foolish to keep the pick, especially when they are only moving down 4 places and will still pick a great talent, plus have the additional picks from the Redskins. But that doesn't mean the Redskins overpaid .... they paid what it took to make the deal ... a deal they needed to make badly because they needed that type of player badly and there was little alternative.
I've said this before, but I'll say it again .... in 2005, the Redskins had 2 #1 picks, and we chose Carlos and Jason ... neither of which are on the team now, and for that reason, both picks were "wasted" .... with Jason, a great deal of time and money was wasted too. Like 5 years worth of time, each year projected to be Jason's "breakout" season that simply never materialized. It really was a major setback for the organization.
Jason was a gamble .... a later 1st round pick for a guy with "Potential" but also a scouting report that identified some of Jason's shortcomings which not only showed up in his play at the NFL level, but shortcomings that he was just unable to overcome. Joe Gibbs and company believed they could "fix" those things, but they underestimated the difficulties in doing so.
With RG3, those issues are not there, which is why the price was so steep. But because of that, the risk is much less. RG3 will be expected to step in and play right away ... versus this "He needs time to develop and learn the offense" ... which was the mantra for Campbell, year after year, season after season.
The other option the Redskins had was to stay where they are and draft Tannehill ... and he might turn out to be a fine QB .... or he might turn out to be another Jason Campbell, and that is a risk the Redskins just couldn't afford because we don't have a viable option at QB to start for the next year or two while the rookie "develops".
The Redskins made the right decision to go all in for RG3 ... the price was steep by the risk is minimal. RG3 is going to be an average QB at the very least, and more likely to be a very good QB. The possibility certainly exists that he could end up being a great QB ... one of those top 5 type QBs, in which case, the Redskins actually underpaid.
Here's the formula:
Average QB --- the Redskins overpaid big time.
Very Good QB --- the Redskins paid the going price
Great QB ---- the Redskins got a steal of a deal.
I'd say the odds are in the Redskin's favor that RG3 will at least become a very good QB in the Schaub, Rivers, Ryan, Eli category, with the possibility that he turns out to be a great QB like the Brady, Brees, P. Manning, Rogers, Roethlisberger category.
The odds are definitely in the Redskin's favor. |
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KazooSkinsFan
kazoo
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 10021
Location: Kazmania
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| The Hogster wrote: | | We have had high 1st round picks for the better part of the last 15 years. How'd that work out for us? We needed a franchise QB and it looks like we got one. |
Exactly. People aren't realistic about the REALITY of what you get with draft picks.
One pro-bowler, one solid starter, one bench warmer, one flame out serving fries: Cost? Three first round picks and a second rounder.
One franchise QB? Priceless... |
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skinsfan#33
#33
Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 3875
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| RayNAustin wrote: |
I was looking at the polls on ESPN ... and people are really illogical.
77% said that the Redskins 'over paid' on the trade.
but then ....
63% said that RG3 will have a better NFL career than Sam Bradford.
then
58% said that the Rams will make the playoffs before the Redskins do.
What has happened to critical thinking and logic?
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Actually, all of those are logical choices. Did we overpay? Sure we might have. No one knows right now. Could RG3 have a better career than Bradford? Of course and he probably will. Will the Rams make the payoffs before the Skins? Maybe, since they already have their franchise QB that isn't hard to fathom.
| RayNAustin wrote: |
In 2005, the Redskins had 2 #1 picks, and we chose Carlos and Jason ..
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Actually, they only had one they traded their 3rd, and the following year's 1st and 5th to get that extra 1st. JC cost them a first, third and fifth.
| raynauston wrote: |
RG3 will at least become a very good QB in the Schaub, Rivers, Ryan, Eli category, with the possibility that he turns out to be a great QB like the Brady, Brees, P. Manning, Rogers, Roethlisberger category.
The odds are definitely in the Redskin's favor. |
Eli is not just a very good QB any more, that dude is elite. With 2 mins to go in a big game I would rather have him than his brother.
But I agree with your points! |
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The Hogster
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 7002
Location: Washington D.C.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| KazooSkinsFan wrote: | | The Hogster wrote: | | We have had high 1st round picks for the better part of the last 15 years. How'd that work out for us? We needed a franchise QB and it looks like we got one. |
Exactly. People aren't realistic about the REALITY of what you get with draft picks.
One pro-bowler, one solid starter, one bench warmer, one flame out serving fries: Cost? Three first round picks and a second rounder.
One franchise QB? Priceless... |
I have to say I agree. It's like people think differently when thinking in terms of "picks" versus "people." If someone were to ask, "Would you trade Laron Landry, Carlos Rogers & Malcolm Kelly for RG3 or Andrew Luck?--not nearly as many would have a problem with it.
But, if you say 2 First Round picks, all Hell breaks loose. |
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The Hogster
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 7002
Location: Washington D.C.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| BTW - If I'm correct, we still have picks in the 3rd - 7th rounds. Two 4ths I believe. To put that into perspective, Chris Cooley, Leonard Hankerson, Roy Helu etc were drafted in rounds 3 and lower. We can add talent in this draft, and next year's draft. This regime has done fairly well with the mid to late round picks. |
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welch
Skins History Buff
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4665
Location: New York, NY
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| The Hogster wrote: | | KazooSkinsFan wrote: | | The Hogster wrote: | | We have had high 1st round picks for the better part of the last 15 years. How'd that work out for us? We needed a franchise QB and it looks like we got one. |
Exactly. People aren't realistic about the REALITY of what you get with draft picks.
One pro-bowler, one solid starter, one bench warmer, one flame out serving fries: Cost? Three first round picks and a second rounder.
One franchise QB? Priceless... |
I have to say I agree. It's like people think differently when thinking in terms of "picks" versus "people." If someone were to ask, "Would you trade Laron Landry, Carlos Rogers & Malcolm Kelly for RG3 or Andrew Luck?--not nearly as many would have a problem with it.
But, if you say 2 First Round picks, all Hell breaks loose. |
Good decision.
The future is now.
People screamed that George Allen had gone crazy when he traded all those draft picks, current and future, for Diron Talbert, Richie Petibon, Myron Pottios, Roy Jefferson, and Billy Kilmer...and a DE from the Jets?
As George considered it, the Redskins had great offensive people and no defense. The best skill players in the NFL, then or now: Sonny Jurgensen, Larry Brown, Charley Taylor, Jerry Smith. Sonny really did play at a level higher than any QB...and I seriously include Unitas, Brody, and Starr. When Otto G moved Taylor to WR, it was like the inventkion of nuclear weapons: a 6-3, 217 star RB with speed and hands going against ordinary DBs?? Sonny was in his late '30s, Charley was approaching 30, so '71 and '72 had to be the years...with a defense.
OK. Work on the OL so RG3 doesn't get hurt, and lets have fun! |
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RayNAustin
Hog
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2312
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| skinsfan#33 wrote: |
Actually, all of those are logical choices. Did we overpay? Sure we might have. No one knows right now. Could RG3 have a better career than Bradford? Of course and he probably will. Will the Rams make the payoffs before the Skins? Maybe, since they already have their franchise QB that isn't hard to fathom. |
It has nothing to do with what situation the Rams are in or why they traded the pick or the player one wants to draft. The price was set by the market in what others were willing to pay. If we got news that the Rams would have taken less, and no one else could have beat us out in the negotiations ... then that would be cause for saying we "overpaid". You certainly can't tie it to the value of the player because that is not known at this time, and will only become known over the next few years.
| skinsfan#33 wrote: |
Actually, they only had one they traded their 3rd, and the following year's 1st and 5th to get that extra 1st. JC cost them a first, third and fifth. |
Yes, that's right ... and like I said, we had two #1 picks, one which cost us two additional picks ... 4 picks in all for two players who aren't here now.
| skinsfan#33 wrote: |
Eli is not just a very good QB any more, that dude is elite. With 2 mins to go in a big game I would rather have him than his brother.
But I agree with your points! |
I'll take Peyton's body of work over Eli's any day. Eli is a very good QB, and maybe close to the elite category now ... but it took him a long time to get there and he is not on the level of Peyton, Brady and Brees. That's what I consider "elite" the top 2 or 3 players at their position ... very good= top 10
Eli has definitely become Mr. Clutch, but he's had a lot of help with some amazing and miraculous catches from his receivers too. Peyton and Brees and Brady can literally dominate their opponents, and carry their teams. Eli needs help, but certainly keeps up his end of the deal when he has it. |
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